Okay, so now we're supposed to be sympathetic because the mob might have done bad things to Nazis? Gimme a break!

Look, the terrorists that murdered that man were terrorists before any Americans stepped foot in Iraq. They murder foreigners as well as fellow citizens. The prison abuse was bad but our military has been dealing with it for months. Even when congress ignored the issue, now feigning that they were kept in the dark, the military was taking action. Our country finds these things intolerable and those that are guilty will be held to account. I just wonder if the Arab press is reporting the broad condemnation of the torture and barbarism some in that region are committing against foreigners?

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Have you forgotten ...

I haven't really been following this story particularly, but did the executioner in the video actually say he was part of Al Qaeda?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4961118/

Ugh, your competency level is annoying and at the same time explains your ignorance. The whole idea of bringing that point up was to demonstrate how the military often turns to loop-holes or unorthodox tactics to achieve their (note, i didn't say our) goals.



What the hell? The military has be investigating it for OVER 4 MONTHS! If it wasn't for Specialist (whats-her-name) leaking this stuff to the media, congress would of probably never of known about it. EVEN RUMSFIELD AGREED WITH THAT STATEMENT!



First off, WHY DO YOU KEEP REFERRING TO THEM AS ARAB'S?! Secondly, That's not even in question (beyond the fact that our press isn't even reporing all the acts of torture and barbarism...either directly or indirectly that our military/governemtn officals are commiting over there)!

I would just like to clarify a few things.

In our Culture: Two wrongs DO NOT make a right.

In their Culture (at least in some sects): Two wrongs DO make a right.

Now, it's not a question of rather you think that's "right" or not. The fact is that is simply how it is and you have to learn to accept AND respect (read at tolorate) that if any sense of peace will EVER exist between the two cultures (not to mention that I found it ironic that Wookie06 made the comment about shooting Al Quida members to death was OK because of what a hand-ful of their members did on Sept. 11th,'01, just shortly after agreeing that two wrongs don't make a right). If you think for one moment we can go over there and all of a sudden they will change their moral values of their culture to match our own, you are DEAD WRONG! Now, just so things aren't confussed and I'm mislabled. I am NOT saying that what either side did was justifiable for our moral culture standards or from a higher moral culture standard. But, I AM saying, from their moral culture standard and from their perspective, what they did was justified, rather we like it or not. Are they terrorist? Perhaps, that has yet to be seen. Perhaps they were a group of college students trying to send a message to the US military and this is the last time anything like this will happend. We don't like that it happend, and if that scenerio is the case, I'm sure they didn't want to resort to that...but they may of felt that if they didn't do it, no one else would, and the message wouldn't be sent. That's not to say there aren't much much better ways to get the message across...though, their way WAS more effective at getting the message across and making it heard loud enough that the world could hear them and wasn't drawned out (as the opinion/concerns of people in Iraq ussually are).

So what I'm I going on about?

What we need, is LESS military action and MORE diplomacy (and apparently a third party, perhaps UN inspectors, to tour the prisons). We need a much better "check and balance" system so that EVERYONE is (and can be) held accountable.

My 2 cents in this matter. I'm going to wait until more information is available before I really take a side on this issue (which, just to make it clear I HAVE NOT taken a side on this issue yet).

[Edit] Thanks to HothRebels Post:
The video of the execution was released on the Internet too late for some Middle East newspaper columnists to react to it. The killing, attributed to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s group, appalled many Arabs, including Iraqis who said described it as just the latest atrocity in a cycle of violence that is driving them to despair.

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

[This message has been edited by CaptBewil (edited May 13, 2004).]

Mussolini also suppressed Cosa Nostra heavily, so they had reasons of their own to help.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

CaptBewil: Concerning the differint morals and cultures and the differences between the two wrongs things, this is fine. But that doesn't mean we should just lie down and let them do whatever they want to us because it is okay in their culture. I don't care whither or not if killing their prisoners to make an example of them is okay in their culture, we should not stand for it. You can not hide behind any kind of cultural shield with that stuff. Same goes for the MPs.

The entire problem is that diplomacy is mixing with the military. The military has its hands tied and are being taken advantage of by terrorists and rebel forces over there. In fact, there was a survey(from what I heard) among the armed forces over their and the number one thing that pissed them off wasn't the suicide bombings or the mass dissent at home, it was them having their hands tied. If politicians would just step back and let the military do what they are trained to do then things will go much more quickly and easily concerning the terrorists and rebels. Yes, it would be messier in the short run but better for everyone in the long run. It's a lot better than dragging this ordeal out and causing more death and misery then what is necessary

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

... Are you people daft? The man who reads the statement and beheads Berg claims to be (and is, according to the CIA) Abu Musab al Zarqawi. ... We *know* who these people, are, ok? There's zero doubt that they're affiliated with al Qaeda.

Berg vertually asked for death, and wandering around Iraq in a muscle shirt, looking for a job, alone, carying a pass-port from iran or something like that, well... let's just say you're not going to be safe for long. One iraqi claims that they even warned Berg to stay off the streets, and he only told the iraqi off.

While killing someone who is innocent is horrible, we also violated the geneva [sp?] convention by even showing the images of the iraqi troops being harassed. Dispite the fact that none of them died, we still went against the act first (heck, we never really DID follow the law. We've showed every single person we've captured on television) thus, we can pretty much expect the punishment to be 10 fold on the iraqi's side.

Let me bring up a silly suggestion, but one on my mind non-the less. After all of those jail pictures were released, a lot of people were saying that, not only would support for the war be harder to find, but it showed via a poll that people thought bush was doing a poorer job with iraq, and even more said (in disagreeance with an earlier poll) that we had no reason for being over there. Bush was rumored to not be getting re-elected because of it. A simple video-camera and a few people can easily "Cut" someone's head off and release it as iraqi's torturing an american CITIZEN, not soldier. It's just a bit ironic, but I HIGHLY doubt it's actually some sort of scam. Just food for thought.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

What the hell...............

You blame him for his own death because he was ASKING for it?? That's like blaming a girl for getting raped because it was late and she was wearing a skirt! Honestly thats just disgusting.




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"If there's one thing I've learned it's this - you just can't shake hands with a fist" - David Allen Coe

Damn the general attitudes in this thread really suck guys.

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Your soul will be mine!

ermm, no, that's entirely different. In our society it's perfectly acceptable to wear skirts. A better comparison would be walking down the streets of a southern state in tight leather pants with holes in the back exposing your bare bottoms, holding the hand of your same-sex partner, while holding a huge sign that says "**** america" and not expect people to react.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Something like this you mean? http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=27679

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"WHEREAS, a body of men calling themselves the National Congress are now in session in Washington City, in violation of our Imperial edict of the 12th of October last, declaring the said Congress abolished;
WHEREAS, it is necessary for the repose of our Empire that the said decree should be strictly complied with;
NOW, THEREFORE, we do hereby Order and Direct Major-General Scott, the Command-in-Chief of our Armies, immediately upon receipt of this, our Decree, to proceed with a suitable force and clear the Halls of Congress." -By Order of Emperor Joshua A Norton I of the United States of America, Dei Gratia, January 1860
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

[This message has been edited by Dormouse (edited May 13, 2004).]

How the hell is that a good comparison??? Are you on crack??

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"If there's one thing I've learned it's this - you just can't shake hands with a fist" - David Allen Coe

It's a perfect compairison. But here's an even better one:

An iraqi man moves here to persue a life in... the stock market. He doesn't call ahead and plan anything at all. When he gets here, he walks around the streets wearing a turbin and holding a "Praise Allah" shirt. While, he's not committing any crimes, can you see him not receiving racial remarks, or even being beaten on the streets in some neighborhoods? That's exactly what this kid was doing: Being the exact sort of american that the iraqi's hate, and he KNEW it. Hundreds of other people are over there, getting good jobs because bush crammed all of the other jobs over here into foreign places, and none of them are dead? Common sense, people. Common sense. He shouldn't have died, but people assume he was some magnificent matyr or a perfectly innocent person who they grabbed off the street just because he was there.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

Except in America, we probably wouldnt chop off your head for saying "fk america". We'd blackmail you if you ever went into politics, or just beat the piss out of you. But not chop off your head.

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"And when I vest my flashing sword And my hand takes hold in judgement I will take vengeance upon mine enemies And I will repay those who hase me O Lord, raise me to Thy right hand And count me amoung Thy saints." - Il Duce, The Boondock Saints

No, but we also have had a stable government and control over our country for the past 100 hundred years.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

WE DIDN'T RELEASE THEM. They were leaked to 60 minutes II and then spread throughout the media.



If you're delusional and naive enough to think that this was a conspiracy, come out and say it. "Food for thought" is usually just another way of offering something incredibly stupid without identifying with it.



I think with the nerve you have to compare New Yorkers to the human scum who killed Berg, you're infinitely more likely to have the **** beaten out of you than any Arab. Take my word for it.

CaptBewil, I'm happy you find my competency level annoying. And I find your choice of catagorizing military goals as "their[s]" interesting. Their goals are the defense of the US which, in this case, is accomplished through a free people in the Mid East. I'm sorry but I find it hard to feel sympathy for any mis-treated Nazi's or terrorists. For those of you who have trouble with reading comprehension, nothing in that last statement implies condoning prisoner abuse.

Seventeen members of congress were attempted to be contacted by an Army Reservists family prior to the media blitz. The only managed to finally get the story out after contacting retired Col. Hackworth. Meanwhile the military was already on top of the issue.

Here are the 17 people in the Senate and the Congress who were first informed of this by an uncle of a man implicated in these photos in Iraq:

Jack Reed, Democrat, Rhode Island, got an e-mail. He's on the committee. Mark Dayton, Democrat, Minnesota, got an e-mail. Robert Byrd, West Virginia, got an e-mail but responded, the office responded, saying, "We don't respond to e-mails unless they're 500 words or more." Bill Nelson, senator, Democrat Florida, got an e-mail. Evan Bayh, Democrat, Indiana, got an e-mail. Mark Pryor, Democrat, Arkansas, got an e-mail. Teddy Kennedy, Democrat, Massachusetts, got an e-mail. Ben Nelson, Democrat Nebraska, got an e-mail. Hillary Clinton, Democrat, New York, got an e-mail. Joseph Lieberman, Democrat, Connecticut, got an e-mail. Daniel Akaka, Democrat, Hawaii, got an e-mail. Congressman [The only House member and sole Republican] Roscoe Bartlett, Republican, Maryland, was sent a letter. Paul Sarbanes, Democrat, Maryland, was sent a letter. Jay Rockefeller, Democrat, West Virginny, was sent a letter, and Governor Mark Warner, Democrat, Virginia, was sent a letter.

You can read about this:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/11/112439.shtml
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=5106409
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/08/national/08IMAG.html

To address why I keep refering to them as Arabs you can read my reply to Ictus earlier in the thread. Basicly, though, it's because they are. Is that in dispute somehow?

I'm not sure how the two wrongs making/not making a right is really relevant here. If I were to stipulate that we somehow wronged them, Arab terrorists that is, then I imagine we still have some catching up to do in order to equal the beliefs of two wrongs making a right, by your definition. I could have more explicitly explained what I just said so it wouldn't have appeared so incompetent to you but I don't really care to. Opinion debates never end. The purpose of this post was more to dispel your misconception that congress was never contacted regarding the issue as I have proven with sources that they were but never acted or bothered to listen while the military was already on top of the issue.

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Have you forgotten ...

He was allegedly detained by the Iraqi police because he was thought to be a spy. The FBI allegedly urged him to get onto a plane and leave the country. He allegedly declined. I'm not seeing how this was "vertually" asking for him to be kidnapped, held hostage, and have his head sawed off.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

[This message has been edited by Wolfy (edited May 13, 2004).]

INSANE!!!!

First of all, I like how you added in the "Praise Allah" t shirt even though there is no equivalent to that with the american. He had no pro-american slogans or anything. He was simply an american in everyday clothes.

Secondly, you are comparing possible racial remarks with cutting someones head off on video. Really nice one there.


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"If there's one thing I've learned it's this - you just can't shake hands with a fist" - David Allen Coe

Maybe I've missed some of the media coverage, but I haven't seen him portrayed as a 'magnificent matyr' yet. As for being portrayed as a perfectly innocent person I haven't really seen that he was guilty of anything more than being fatally naive. He should have known better, but that doesn't lessen the crime one bit.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Are you saying that the hypothetical middle-eastern man in a turban walking down the street is responsible for getting beaten? IS that the analogy I'm seeing? Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that this hypothetical guy would be asking for a beating? That he would aprtially deserve what he got?

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WOOSH|-----@%

I'd like to say that I was wrong, in a sense. According to my Social Studies teacher, Iraq is mostly Arab, it was Iran that I was thinking about. But, my picture does sort of support the statement that Iraqi's aren't all Arab...



I agree, everything I've heard says that too, but you cannot generalize and paint all of our deaths in Iraq as terrorism.

The point I'm trying to make is that empathy is a good thing. Knowing that the Iraqi's would have a less than favorable outlook on our freeing their country would have been nice to know, or to have been considered before we got into this war. Whoever planned this war obviously either didn't care what they would think about an attack on Saddam's Regime, or was so stupid as to not think of it. Either way, that's some faulty planning. None of this garbage would be happening if we weren't in Iraq, except of course that al Qaeda would still be doing things like cutting people's heads off and blowing things up.

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Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?

Actually, many of them were beaten and shot to death. But yeah, I agree for the most part.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

I never said he deserved it. At all. But he WAS strutting his stuff around the streets of Iraq. I'm only mentioning the fact that he's one out of many people who are over in iraq that have been killed. He was most likelly told by certain officials what he could and could not do, and I'd be willing to bet he put his life in danger. It's a trajedy when someone running across the street gets hit by an oncomming car, but the person is still lacking in serious considerations of his actions. Same with this guy. It's still a shame, but... you just CAN'T go walking around iraq wearing the exact image that iraqi's hate so much.

And no, I'm not assuming someone is asking to be killed if they are muslems in the US. What I'm saying, is that people have been beaten down (After 9/11) for being muslems. Same for other races. Where there's racism against your race, you should be on some sort of cautious level to not preterb the people who hate you so much. I feel quite sorry for the completelly innocent muslems who went about the life they'd had for many many many years before this time that were suddenly attacked outside of their homes after 9/11.

Specifically, I know a Muslem kid at our school who just recently got the living crap beat out of him, I mean, he was hospitalized. All because some guy and his buddy, and both of their many kids beat him up after school. The kid doesn't even look muslem, yet he receives the racist treatments. Imagine what'd happen if he was dark skinned, walked around with a turbin, and walked around town praying to alah? I'm only saying: You just don't do some things for protection of yourself.

JediKirby



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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

The *main* problem with your analogy is that al Qaeda has nothing even approaching a counterpart in the US. There is no American terrorist group that is sworn to drive Muslims from American soil. The acts of a few ignorant ****heads are not comparable to those of a cohesive group with a clearly defined agenda..wait..haven't I already said that in this thread?

Unless the driver in your analogy means to run over the pedestrian it holds less water than an 80 yr old man with bladder control issues.

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Hahaha, clownsuit.

I never said we should 'lie down.' I'm saying that because of their culture, the military should of had the foresight of knowing that something like this would happend if word got out about what we were doing to the prisoners of their culture. Then again, that's millitary intelligence for you...



Again, you missed my point completely. It's simply the fact that this was to be expected (one of the reasons why the millitary tried to keep in under wraps). Again, I do not agree with the actions taken on Mr. Berg, however, I do see where their coming from...and THAT must be understood before any hope of peace can happend. From a diplomatic position, you have to put yourself in the other person shoes. Only THEN can you understand the differences and only then can you possibly begin to bridge those differences.

Oh, BTW, you don't think that the millitary isn't already making it hard on the Dipolomats as it is? Yeah, let's just turn them loose and have their little war their way.



Actually, if the millitary had it their way, there would be much greater death and suffering. That is why the Geneva Convention exists, after all.



Uh huh, and just like there were WMD's in Iraq, right? Don't forget that even the CIA is under fire right now. So, again, I'm waiting for more information from RELIABLE sources before I take sides on this issue or drawn at least a better picture of the situation at hand.



I agree with your concept. Iraq is not the best place to be right now if you don't have to be there.



Well, yeah...

I mean, it's not like Iraq is a WAR ZONE or anything...



Of course not, because it's not in our culture to do that. However, "when it Rome..."



Doesn't it or are you implying that Prisoners are no longeo Nazi and/or "Terrorist" when they're in custody?



Ugh! <shakes head>

1) What's your point? Why does cogress have to be informed by an Uncle of an implicated Army Reservist? THEY SHOULD OF BEEN TOLD IMMIDIATELY OF THE SITUATION AS SOON AS IT HAPPEND!

2) Yeah, the millitary was on top of it alright...making sure the MP's continued making the photos so that the CIA and others could use them in interrogations with other prisoners to show them what would happend if they didn't cooporate...



Sure they are, but so are many others that are not directly involved. Please be more specific as to not implicate the ENTIRE ARAB WORLD! Can you not at least have that much respect for them?



Why am I not surprised...



Um no. When your in an area of the world which is known for giving an Eye for an Eye, out of common sense, you don't go around abusing (and down right degrading) people of their culture. That's just stupidity at best.



Don't care to or incapable of? I'm sorry, you have yet to address any Iraq related threads with any sense of rational thought put into your arguments. It's has simply been regurgitated garbage. You hear it and then you post it, whithout taking a few minutes to research it. When you research, all you need is one source that backs your point. But you have to make sure there are not any sources that discredit or disprove it too.



Again, they were not contacted or even attempted to be contacted by government/millitary officials. Even President Bush was left in the dark and jumped Rumsfield's case for not informing him of what was going on!

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

[This message has been edited by CaptBewil (edited May 13, 2004).]

Not to nitpick, but:



First of all, that's not how the chain of command works. The Pentagon would have to have been notified before it could be sent on to Congress. Second of all..they..kinda were.. As Rumsfeld pointed out, the first reports were mentioned in a CPA press conference, but no one really paid much attention until the pictures leaked.

No, it means that if your stupid enough to run out into a busy street, don't expect people to be to sympathetic if you get hit. It's like the story I heard the other day about a blade in a log splitter (or something) getting jammed and the guy oporating the machine stuck his foot in there to try and dislodge it. He didn't even have time to scream for help...

Here's a better analogy. You walk into a cave that is KNOWN to have bears. Are you going to tell me it's the bears fault that he rips you limb from limb? Or is it your stupidity for walking into a cave that is KNOWN to have bears in it?

Again, exactly how much sympathy do you expect someone to have for you?

Why do you think they ask enlisties if they are fully aware that their job puts their life on the line and that they very well could die? Those that are in the millitary know and understand the risk, which is why when they die, nobody has sympathy for them. Their sad that they died, but they knew that that person knew that could happend. The same goes for Mr. Berg, if you go into an obvious War Zone, then you accept the possiblty of dieing...either by accident or otherwise.

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

You think the Pentegon wasn't notified sometime within the last four months of the situation?

Obviously they were informed as they launched an investigation into the matter...

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

[This message has been edited by CaptBewil (edited May 13, 2004).]

When bears maul people to death they usually get put down.

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WOOSH|-----@%

Yep, because, you know, it wasn't like the guy was invading the Bears home or anything...

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

[This message has been edited by CaptBewil (edited May 13, 2004).]

... Nick Berg was a civilian repairing infrastructure...

Jesus god, you people will spin this **** to no end to make it seem just slightly less horrible than it is..

I'll accept your resignation from the human race. Thanks.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

...yes, we can all agree by now that he was naive as hell for ignoring the advice given to him, but that still doesn't excuse the actions taken against him. The people who killed him were not bears with no concept of right or wrong, they were human beings. Trying to water down this incident with analogies that don't fit serves no real purpose. Yes he was stupid, but last I checked even stupid people don't deserve to have their head slowly cut off on video camera.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

I just watched the video and it made me sick. This is the actual video and it is not for the weak at heart. Those who are senistive to this, don't watch.



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I'm sorry, you must be lost... I think you really don't belong here.

Seriously, it will shock the **** out of you. Don't let the first 80% fool you..

Yeah, I've seen the video before. Was he drugged? I don't remember him putting up much of a fight.

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.

... what?

Not to be insulting or anything, but wtf are you talking about?

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Ω of 14