Yeah, that chart is bogus. There are plenty of my Mexican compadres in jail.

What the hell happened to this thread?

Massassi happened.

Then Finland happened.

For some reason mexicans are not listed on that chart....They list American Indians btu not mexicans.

Like I said on SF_Gold_01's thread: Mexico is really a machination of the Bush administration designed to distract the American people from rising gas prices.

Now I'm "a man without a country". =(

I never said you did. I was speaking on other people whom did do that. And it's not entirely impossible to conceive that an 8 year old listens to hardcore rap.



I agree 100%. And you're talking to one of the biggest Tupac fans/collectors you'll meet



This shows your ignorance of Rap. You hear only the crap stuff put out in mainstream media, not the good meaningful rap. I could say the same about rock, it's nothing but a bunch of queers banging drums, but I have common sense to know that's not true.



I think that's got to be one of th most ignorant statements I've ever heard. You know nothing about Tupac, yet you can somehow judge him. You probably haven't even heard more than 3 or 4 of his songs.

1. Tupac was an EXTREMELY intelligent guy
2. Tupac wrote more than raps, he also wrote movies, was a well gifted actor, and poetry writer as well
3. Tupac wasn't a drug addicted moron. He only smoked pot, which to many isnt even considered a drug
4. I'd invite Tupac to my wedding if I could. Not just the dinner table. I wouldn't however, invite you. I'd rather bang your head into it.



yeah.. Rap music is destructive to society... last I checked, in the days of WW1 and 2 Rap wasn't even around... Yet the world was pretty violent then. How about our entire history, which is littered in violence. How about slavery, how about raping's, they've existed LONG before rap did. Using that argument is like saying video games lead to violence.



Tupac wasn't addicted to drugs unless you consider marijuana an addictive drug. Aside from that, he only tried one other during his entire lifetime (extacy), to which I at least know, most people do anyways.

Tupac also wasn't totally into the Thug Life mentality. He portrayed it, but he was actually forced to do so by Suge Knight of Death Row. Partially because of the fact that Suge bailed him out of jail and was under contract to do whatever Suge said.

Seriously, don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly wouldn't mind bumping into Jon C once in my lifetime.

I bet you wouldn't you alpha male wannabe.

Yeah, I hear he's really ugly.

Alpha male wannabe? How so

Tupac actually was all into the Thug Life mentality. True he felt like he owed Suge, to a certain point, and he was under contract, but he's not the kind of guy that would do something he didn't want to. He believed that the black man should rise against the continued oppressions the white men of the world had imposed upon them...whether or not he's right, I know I couldn't say, because I didn't live in the 1990s

GUYS GUYS

You're all wrong!

Jon`C can't back up his arguments, and makes statements he knows are wrong but, I imagine, is prepared to ignore anyone who disproves them (which I would do if I thought it was worthwhile).

Temperamental and Raoul Duke are getting angry and rude, which is never the right way to debate. I'm not going to address the poverty issue, because that's not what's at issue.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]He believed that the black man should rise against the continued oppressions the white men of the world had imposed upon them...[/QUOTE]

What, by blasting Crips? Come on dude. :p

Anyway, what do you say, Jon? Do you want to bring out the big guns? I can haul out artist after artist all day long, each one less stereotypical than the last.

Not at all.

Tupac was racist in his early days (Thug Life, 2pacalypse) but later in his life realised how wrong he was for being such a racist. When he wrote about racism in his later songs (me against the world, makaveli) he was speaking more of the opression side and how black people are at a disadvantage in society today. Not to rise up with extreme black power, etc. But more to stand up for what you are, and what you believe in, and never let anyone hold or put you down.

On top of that, his early racist beliefs stemmed from the fact that his mother and father were both extreme black panthers, his family was constantly harassed by the police, and he himself was subject of many racist attacks, all before he hit the age of 18. Which can be very influential on a persons mind and opinions of those opressing him.

Tupac was into the thug mentality, somewhat, but not in the sense that people thing THUG LIFE means. THUG LIFE actually stands for:

The Hate You Give Little Infants ****s Everybody

and Nigga means

Never Ignorant, Getting Goals Accomplished


Tupac was into the being a thug part, not the killing/vengence part. He was more about image than anything. He even confirms this in interviews, songs, and TUpac: Resurrection.

Oh yeah, he wasn't for killing, he was just for the black man taking back their rights, for a while he thought a violent, more abrupt approach was better.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Tupac actually was all into the Thug Life mentality. True he felt like he owed Suge, to a certain point, and he was under contract, but he's not the kind of guy that would do something he didn't want to. He believed that the black man should rise against the continued oppressions the white men of the world had imposed upon them...whether or not he's right, I know I couldn't say, because I didn't live in the 1990s[/QUOTE]
Thats pretty dead on...take "Changes" for example. Most people think it's about how their needs to be changes and black/white should be friends, but really it's about how black people need to stop fighting EACH OTHER, and unite to rise up against white people. Not really in a violent sense though...if you listen to the lyrics hes encouraging them to stop the crime and succeed in the world the right way.

"You need to see me as a brother steada two distant strangers...and thats how its supposed to be, how can a devil take a brother if he's close to me"

"Try to show another way, but they stayin' in the dope game.
Now tell me what's a mother to do?
Bein' real don't appeal to the brother in you.
You gotta operate the easy way.
"I made a G today" But you made it in a sleazy way.
Sellin' crack to the kids. "I gotta get paid," "

"We gotta make a change...
It's time for us as a people to start makin' some changes.
Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other.
You see the old way wasn't working so it's on us to do
what we gotta do, to survive. "

I find it amusing the way this turned into a thread about racism.

Funnily enough, saying "rap music sucks" does not make you a racist. Rap is mainly produced and listened to by black people, yes but it's like saying "rock music sucks" makes you racist against white people. This whole thread is rather absurd.

People like different music. Get over it.

Except thats not how this started. Jon C said that rappers and people in that culture had no morals, and were all moronic drug addicted demons. But thanks for assuming without reading any of it. If someone says "rap sucks" of course it's not racism, never was anything like that said...take the time to read a thread before offering up your opinion on it.

[QUOTE=Raoul Duke]Except thats not how this started. Jon C said that rappers and people in that culture had no morals, and were all moronic drug addicted demons. But thanks for assuming without reading any of it. If someone says "rap sucks" of course it's not racism, never was anything like that said...take the time to read a thread before offering up your opinion on it.[/QUOTE]


Saying that rappers are immoral is still not racist. I guarantee you that most black people are not rappers without looking it up.

[QUOTE=Jedi Legend]Saying that rappers are immoral is still not racist. I guarantee you that most black people are not rappers without looking it up.[/QUOTE]
its a culture that goes way beyond being a rapper.

Not really. :p



Sure, but that isn't what's at issue here.

What are we arguing about again? I hate being left behind.

Prettty much that's it. When he matured, as all young men do.

I could list tons of meaningful songs by Tupac to prove our points..

The good Die Young
Changes
Keep Ya Head Up
Happy Home
Starin at the world Thru my rearview
Better Dayz
Thug Mansion
Baby Dont Cry
Me against the world
Ghetto Gospel
Never call You ***** Again
White Mans World
I Wonda if Heaven Got a Ghetto
brendas got a baby
Mamas just a little girl
My Block
Who Do you Believe in
Po Nigga Blues
When Thugz Cry
Letter to the president
teardrops and closed caskets
Dear mama
Life Goes On

The entire Rose that Grew from the concrete album was poetry written by Tupac, some damn beautiful poems.


I dont really feel like writing more. But you can't listen to all ofthose songs, and tellme that A) Tupac wasn't an intelligent guy and B) All rap is not meaningful/Rap is crap.

1.) OH NO I'M BEING THREATENED BY AN INTERNET TOUGH GUY!

2.) "Most people"? Dude, you have some seriously ****ed up ideas about the world. What are you, 14? Get out into the real world. More people do meth than designer drugs because it's inexpensive and can be made with common materials - and even then, the people who do drugs, period, are in the strong minority.

3.) OH NO I'M BEING THREATENED BY AN INTERNET TOUGH GUY!

I'm sad now. If only you hadn't listened to rap music maybe you wouldn't be such a violent and/or pathologically insane person.

Edit: Hey wait. I was led to believe that Tupac didn't like violence or the thug life or war or whatever it is you damn kids are whining about these days. If you really respect Tupac's work and ideals, why are you threatening me?

Now children, listen to the superintelligent coder dude.

We grew up in a rather poor neighborhood and during certain years of my life it was almost as common to come home from school and having no electricity as it was to have it. My father, who was a drug addict and alcoholic, was laid off and refused to work from the time I was 14 or 15. My mother managed to get her GED and land a barely above minimum wage job at the YMCA which put food on the table. I started cutting grass and raking leaves at about 12 or 13 just so I could help my parents pay the bills (my brothers were too young to work). I can't tell you how many times I almost went to jail (only been once), how much crap I've stolen, or how many times I've assaulted someone (we were even shot at once, and I even had a gun pulled on me in school). You kids today shop at thrift stores because it's cool. We did it because we couldn't afford to go anywhere else, and were made fun of for it. Is that enough street-cred, or am I still too white?...

I grew up on rap music in the 80's and 90's. I'm now 26 and can't stand rap music, something that I used to consider a "lifestyle". 99% of it is as Jon C describes, and I don't care how you folks try to paint it. As a whole, the rap genre is a self-defeating "art" that does more harm than good. It's nice that you can find good rappers when you dig deep enough, but that doesn't make up for such a horrible genre.

...and just so you know, I think alot of rock music is almost as bad. To me, this angsty BS is music for people who think of themselves as victims.

Hey Temperamental, I suggest you check out The Crest, Gym Class Heroes (I saw them live), and The Hieroglyphics. They're really good rap groups that aren't very popular, but have some serious talent and great lyrics.

So is condemning a genre for the popular crap the media pushes on us now cool?

I fell in love with Sage Frances today.

!! PEOPLE LIKE DIFFERENT MUSIC !!!

Good ****ing god, get over it

And you can't comprehend when they say that not only do they not like it, but they call the people who sing/portray it self-defeating disrespectful criminals whose only goal in life is to spread their ideas. The only true part about that statement is the last part...because it's music.

I wouldn't know what's "cool" and what's not. I only know that you can't dispute the fact that 99% of the rap out there is self-defeating. The fact of the matter is that young people, especially, are easily influenced by their role-models, and when 99% of your role-models are disrespecting women, bragging about how much money and "bling" they have, and glorifying the "thug" lifestyle, it's no wonder why there seems to be an endless cycle of social problems amongst the community these people (black and white) reside in. I'm not blaming rap music for these problems, I'm simply stating that it's so blatantly obvious that it doesn't help the situation, that you'd have to be insane or incredibly naive not to agree. To me, rap is a class thing, not a race thing. There is some talent in the rap community, but as Jon C stated, it's misplaced. The amount of "hoes", "bling", and smooth basslines, with a few semi-clever lyrics doesn't equate to good music, in my opinion.

You miss the point. Good rap artists don't talk about all that crap!! It's the mainstream people! Thats like judging all rock and roll music based on what blink 182 produces or something. Your all getting your opinion from rap in the wrong places. Of course stuff like G-unit, chingy, snoop dogg, etc is all bull****. You gotta listen to the underground stuff for the meaningful poetic **** which is the message we've been trying to hammer through your heads this whole time, yet you keep bringing up the argument that they are only talking about hoes, money, and cars! ITS WRONG.

[QUOTE=Raoul Duke]You miss the point. Good rap artists don't talk about all that crap!! It's the mainstream people! Thats like judging all rock and roll music based on what blink 182 produces or something. Your all getting your opinion from rap in the wrong places. Of course stuff like G-unit, chingy, snoop dogg, etc is all bull****. You gotta listen to the underground stuff for the meaningful poetic **** which is the message we've been trying to hammer through your heads this whole time, yet you keep bringing up the argument that they are only talking about hoes, money, and cars! ITS WRONG.[/QUOTE]

But...if it's popular...that means it's listened to by more people. I know where he's coming from, and I understand to an extent, but people don't realize--everyone ultimately makes a choice. Not the music they listen to, the games they play, or the shows they watch, the person. Not only that, but 99% of rap is NOT like this. Not at all. I'd say maybe 60, if that. Sure, it's the majority, but there's still quite a bit of say that the rest of the cultures that exist within the realm of rap and outside the realm of gangsta rap have. I've mentioned the names before, and I could think up more, but you get the idea.

I'm not missing your point, I'm disagreeing with it. Just because 1 rapper out of 100 is good, doesn't make up for the rest of the genre. I love Nickel Creek but that doesn't make Bluegrass good (an example, I actually enjoy many Bluegrass artists). When I turn on the radio and hear what's being represented as "rap", I'm instantly turned off. This doesn't happen when I turn on any other radio stations. To me, it's less about taste, and more about tact. There may be some great rap artists out there, but when the vast majority (Dj Yoshi is probably correct, 99% is more of an example than a realistic statistic) turn me off that quick, I'm never going to bother finding out.

If what you're saying about these so-called "underground" rappers is true, then more power to them, but redefining a genre that is already so far in the wrong direction isn't going to be easy.

But the majority isn't vast, it's just vocal. There's a difference. Just like how support groups get laws passed that most of America probably doesn't agree with, and same with Corporate america. They're not vast majority, just more vocal (and influential) minority.

It's not 1 in 100, though. You keep bringing up that figure as though it were valid, even though it's obvious you just made it up. Just saying something over and over doesn't make it true...and in this case it's clearly not.

That said, I think gangsta rap is going out of style. Green Day and Nickelback, for example, seem to be dominating the iTunes charts while 50 Cent and company seem to be losing ground. Which, I hope, will be good for hip-hop music in general. At the very least we can get a break from the rock snobs' whining. :p

I don't think you can judge the quality of a genre. A genre identifies a sort of music via certain stylistic elements that set it apart from the rest. The talent curve doesn't factor into it. I think one might say "most rap artists suck these days" and that would be true. But "rap sucks" is not the same thing, and I don't think is applicable. This applies to just about any genre. The traditions don't matter, as I think anyone can make a good song in any genre. Even techno-glitchcore. :p

Thanks, I'll look into them. I like underground artists. Papoose and Immortal technique are my two favorite underground artists at current.



1. I never claimed to be an internet tough guy. However, based off how you act and look (if I remember correctly from any of the picture posting threads) I could easily bend you in half so your head goes up your arse, that is if it wasn't already there as it currently is. That's not a lie, nor is it meant to sound conceited. I work out, I take martial arts, I box, I'm not a weak guy, and yes, I am frequent to fights. So when I say something around those lines to someone, it's never so far been proven to not be the truth. I could very well be wrong, but as I already stated, in every situation so far in my life, I've been proven wrong 0 times in that aspect.

2. Dude, you were talking trash about Tupac doing drugs. Don't try to change it saying I was specifically talking about most people, when I was simply bashing down your thought on Tupac being a drug-addicted moron, when you a) dont know **** about him and b) I'm 22

3. See point #1.

4. Actually, I've been violent all my life. And up until I was 14 or 15, I never listened to rap.


5. We respect the work of Tupac and his ideals. That is however, the opposite of idiots like yourself who bash something they know absolutely nothing about. So of course when you post bull**** like you did earlier, claiming someone is what they aren't, naturally, we're going to shoot you down. Which we've done, over and over again.

You my friend, are the one that needs to get outside.

Never posted my picture on the internet before, so, no, you don't "remember correctly".

Just like everybody else on the internet.



Blah blah blah, yeah, you're so tough mang, you'll beat me up and then rape my family and then do lines off of my corpse, whatever.

Enough. If you two want to goad each other, either a) meet face-to-face b) take it to PM or c) Sierra Tango Uniform Foxtrot.

You're an idiot.

kthxbye