Right.

Or in other words, SECOND PAGE.

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<landfish> FastGamerr > Satan

[This message has been edited by FastGamerr (edited June 04, 2004).]

It's a proven fact that in Aurherian times, 'Christian' knights traveled to Iraq, Iran, and other middle eastern countries and murdered entire villages, entire countries of people, simply because they weren't Christians. They enslaved children from Egypt and other portions of Africa soon after that, believing that they were simply using the tools that god had given them. Given more time, I could find you sources, nuetral ones, that says these 'Missions' of the noble knights killed off almost half as many more than Hitler, and almost as many as Stalin is rumored to have killed. By the way: Hitler was Christian.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

He was, but he gave it up and became somewhat of an anti-Christian. He wrote about Christianity as a mischievous lie initiated by the Jews, or something along those lines.

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If you can read this, you need better glasses.

Thanks for that completely irrelevant piece of information and flamebait.



It's a parent's choice to teach their children about that kind of material, not yours. A question: are you opposed to a parent teaching their child that homosexuality is wrong, but to respect the rights of homosexuals?

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

"Christian" in many cases, especially during the Middle Ages simply means "not Muslim". I bet that maybe 0.5% of people who say that they're Christians, actually are Christians. I don't consider Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah's witness, or any of those liberal churches, such as the Presbyterian USA, or the US Episcopalian or Methodist churches to have sufficiently good doctrine in the Bible to consider any one who believes the denominational doctrine of the churches and a true believer. That is not to say all of the individual churches in these dominations are all bad, or that the individual people in the churches embrace these denomination’s churches doctrine. I am speaking of the official beliefs of the particular denomination. I believe that a person must accept that salvation in by faith alone, (I believe that God gives you the faith to believe, instead of you making a decision for Christ, though I don’t consider this to be something that you must believe if you’re to be considered saved), and that you must consider the whole Bible the word of God. These are at least some of the things that I consider are necessary for salvation. Just because you believe these things, dose not mean that are necessarily saved either, you still must ask God to save you.

Oh, and Tracer, it's called AIDS.

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited June 04, 2004).]

Why should they be teaching them that homosexuality is wrong in the first place? What if that child wants to be homosexual?

Yes, I would be opposed to that. 'Right' and 'wrong' should be based on the needs and wants of that particular society at that particular time. In ancient times, homosexuality might have been seen as 'wrong' as small villages would have had to have as high a birth rate as possible, but that is no longer the case. Society changes and so does 'right' and 'wrong'. Clinging onto outdated norms and values is not useful.


Also, AIDS is not exclusive to homosexuals. HIV is generally transmitted through unprotected anal sex, which does affect homosexual men more, yes, but can affect heterosexuals just as much. HIV can be spread through the transmission of other bodily fluids as well. The solution is simply to educate young people into the precautions necessary for sex, and anal sex, and make the appropriate condoms easier to purchase (I assume you need different condoms for anal sex?).
Also, most cases of HIV are spread through blood transfusions.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited June 04, 2004).]

Ok, people I'm posting my views and have not insulted anyone. Some of you did not read my first post very well, so please re-read it. Form an athest view point please explain what ethics are beyond some remenant of of a "dated religon".

***Mods please note that I have not yet insulted any-one AT ALL. My posts have just been stating my beliefs, and trying to think above the level of of calling the other side stupid. If you don't like what I say, then logically refute it, and tell me why you think I 'm wrong. I'm trying to have a disscussion! I'm not good at rhetoric so please take the time to read my posts carfullly. Thank you.*** Methinks I have got off to a bad start here...

I did above. Buddhism is atheist and has a strong code of ethics.

There's a difference between being insulting and being offensive. Being offensive is something you have done without apparently knowing about it.

As an athest, I'm in full agreement with Jeff. I believe I am a more morally upstanding person than many Christians I know. I was not brought up in a religious home, and can not ever remember having a belief in a god. I believe that my morals can be based off other values other than a religious text.

Yeah. Buhdism is a whole nother story. Man, I get a kick out of their sayings. You ever heard the Tea Kwon Leap thing? Oh man, funny! *Boot to the head!* http://beagleweb.com/fun-taekwanleap.html Make sure you listen to the MP3!

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited June 04, 2004).]

No, it's not insulting at all to call another religion a joke.

OK. Let's assume that gay people are all HIV+. Whats... the problem. They're HIV+, not you. They're not infecting the community, unless the entire community is gay. Furthermore, are you implying that all people who have an STD are gay, or are related to someone who is? Seriously, think about your logic some.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

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<landfish> FastGamerr > Satan

Oh, 'cmon it's being respectfull. It's biased tward the Budists side. I wouldn't mide if people poke fun of me that respectfully. I think it's perfectly fine. Anyway AID's can spread. It's not only limited to Homo's and drug users. As soon as you have it your blood is poison. Some homo's may want to have a kid with some one and when they do they give the other person AID's and also the kid. Still, this realy is becide the point. AID's already exists and will continue to even if people are homosexual or not. If you don't belive in God you may as well, because you don't belive in his punishment. If there was no God there wouldn't be very of a reason not too. Or a reason for anything for that matter.

Or maybe there really isn't a giant mother of all things who spanks you when you're bad? Maybe some day you'll have to depend on yourself, and make decisions that might effect you or someone around you for a change. Maybe, just maybe, you don't need a book to tell you how to live your life?

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

Obi: You might want to keep in mind that the Catholic church supports homosexuals, just not marriages. Just so you know.

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"The future is not determined by a throw of the dice, but is determined by the conscious decisions of you and me."
I am addicted to ellipses!!! AHHH!!! ...
Make Sorrowind Worthwhile... join it! http://sorrowind.net

I think niku has contributed the most useful points so far.

Really, people need to take a walk outside and stop being so opinionated and closed minded. Who cares if this kid has loads of parents, its more pocket money and hell, I bet they turn out to be a cool, open minded individual with plenty of knowledge if they come from a background like that.

Oh, obi, not to be offensive, but your first post came across more like hitler than an upstanding christian.

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Drugs & Stupidity, Tons of it.

He said above that he doesn't believe the Catholic church is Christian, so I think that point is moot to him.



What right do you have to tell other people how to raise their children? If a child is brought up to respect the rights of homosexuals, then how is that hurting homosexuals? Furthermore, why is it okay for you to force your choices (i.e., people should not raise children in a religious home) on others, yet if I were to try to do the same, I would be called upon?

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

[This message has been edited by Wolfy (edited June 04, 2004).]

I meant Christians. The main belief is that they support homosexuals, just not in the ritual of marriage.

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"The future is not determined by a throw of the dice, but is determined by the conscious decisions of you and me."
I am addicted to ellipses!!! AHHH!!! ...
Make Sorrowind Worthwhile... join it! http://sorrowind.net

Isn't that wonderful. At least you're upfront about it.

There was more, but it isn't even worth it.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

How children are raised affects society, and so it is only logical that society has a say.

Now, as for the whole 'homosexuality is wrong and evil but I respect you anyway' thing.. It's tough. If the child did understand that they were not to treat homosexuals any differently to anyone else, despite the fact that they are evil sinners and will burn in hell for their lifestyle choice, then I suppose that is okay. But why teach them that homosexuality is wrong in the first place? Teaching that 'this is wrong and evil...but you should respect people who do it' sort of negates the fact that it is 'wrong and evil'. Unless of course, the parent makes it explicit that it is 'wrong and evil' for you but not 'wrong and evil' for someone else, which negates the absolutist 'right and wrong' view.
I suppose it would work if the child was taught 'homosexuality is wrong but discrimination is more wrong'. Yes. I'll accept that. But it sure seems a lot easier simply not to teach them that homosexuality is wrong in the first place.
It's exactly the same as a family teaching their children that black people are wrong and evil because they are black. That might have been acceptable 100 years ago, perhaps even less, but certainly isn't today.


Saying that 'parents should be allowed to do whatever they want to their children' sounds nice, but isn't really. Raising a child is the most important thing you can do, as you are shaping and moulding a future element of society, and how you do that will directly affect the community you live in.
Luckily, though, children aren't shielded from the outside world and would be socialised through school and the media.

Catholics not Christians...mmkay. So I guess there is a 4th major religion out there.

Hah. I've actually see it first hand now. I'm told not to raise my children in traditional Christian values that teach that homosexuality is wrong [my child(ren) will be taught that] but to raise them with the acceptance that homosexuality is ok, contrary to my beliefs. I hate to be so blunt but basically this: I'm the parent you're not.

This is what really gets my blood seething. You don't accept my teachings yet I'm..expected to accept your teachings. Rank hypocrisy there.

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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.

Oh well, at least I belive in something and don't change it to fit my needs. I belive in something so strongly that I'm willing to say it even if it's contriversial. What do you belive in? Arr you you willing to stand for your beliefs even if their not popular?

Not only do I believe in the Christian faith, I believe that you aren't a true Christian. I can say this based on the comments you have said earlier, that any real christian would:

#1. Know was completely false
#2. Know that Faith alone is not the way to heaven
#3. Change is good. That's what the vatican councils are for.
#4. Questioning your faith is a good thing. It makes you want to learn more about it. If you just believe blindly in your religion, bad things happen. (See Crusades, Afganistan)
#5. If my religion teacher was here, he'd slap you upside the head for calling yourself Christian. Just so you know.


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"The future is not determined by a throw of the dice, but is determined by the conscious decisions of you and me."
I am addicted to ellipses!!! AHHH!!! ...
Make Sorrowind Worthwhile... join it! http://sorrowind.net

I'm bisexual for christs sake!

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

And this is why CM is my first manlover. [/kidding] But seriously, that right there says a lot about you Cool Matty.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

Well, tell me what you think a being a Christian
requres. Maby there was some mis-communication.
What things have I said that make you think I'm not Christian? Re-read my first post. What I was suggesting about Hitler and all that I said I DIDN'T belive in because I AM a Christian. Please read more carfully! I said I WOULD belive in it but ONLY IF I DIDN'T bleive in God! BTW I still think homosexuality is wrong. Read Romans 1.
You or may accept what I'm telling you but *gasp* I belive that some of you are wrong! Yes I said the "w" word! Oh no! I don't belive that every one's beliefs are equally right! You can't accept two teachings at the same time! If you do that you don't realy belive in any of them! Arrrgg! What happend to logic and reason! I'm gonna go INSANE! *Counts down from 10 till thread is locked*

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited June 04, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited June 04, 2004).]

I might have to edit this after I reread it, but: The idea is that everyone sins, but that does not make any of those sins right. A person has the free will to do as they please, but "sins" are believed to be wrong by their very nature, not because "God" said so - He said so for a reason.

In Natural Law philosophy, we exist in reality together, in a relationship, however loose or strong it may be. Therefore, every action done by one person affects everyone in the relationship, for the good or bad, to some degree. Because of this there is naturally set down a limit on the actions (and, of course, inactions) I can fairly perform; being that certain actions relate to others in an unfair, or unjust, way.

Any "sin" is "wrong" for this reason: relating to the self, or others, in a negative and unfair way. You are a believer of a religion, this is a "truth" taught by that religion. You believe it, hopefully understand it, yet silence it so as not to offend?

If you are so sure the child would abuse those who choose to commit a sin, perhaps the child is not being taught the whole truth. If he understood why that sin was truly wrong, perhaps the rights of the person who commits it would be clear.

Tolerance means exactly that: tolerating one's choices, since it is their God-given right to make it, whether he reject or accept God. To say it is "okay" goes beyond respect for one's right to make a choice, and denies the truth.

This desire to say the action itself is okay, for the sake of other's comfort, stems from a complete lack of understanding in the first place as to why it is "wrong." Not because God or anyone else said so, but because it is by its very nature.

When you say it isn't wrong, you give up the entire belief, not just that singular one. The truth can not be separated and divided without becoming a lie.

If one never believed it was wrong in the first place, that's another story. But if one did, that person passes the belief on to that person's child for a reason, he or she hopes for the child's benefit. If one didn't think the child would understand it, perhaps that person needs to reflect on his or her believed truth for oneself.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

[This message has been edited by Bounty Hunter 4 hire (edited June 04, 2004).]

Just out of curiosity, what church DOES that leave you in? Egyptian Coptic Church? Amish?

I'm a reformed Baptist who goes to an OPC church, because the reformed Baptist churches in Tulsa tend to have weird theology. Their are other Presbyterian denominations besides the “Presbyterian USA” denomination. There's also the OPC and several others.

And I think this is a very good reason why not to be Christian.



The question is, why are you teaching them that homosexuality is 'wrong'?
What you teach your children will affect me and will affect my children.
Your children will be out in the world and will meet homosexuals. They could be working for a homosexual. Surely it would be better for them if they accepted homosexuals as normal and didn't care about it, rather than consider it 'wrong'?

Obi: You want to get in a bible-book fight? You'll lose.

Why your Roman 1 quote is null and void, as far as today's society goes:

A. It was written that it was punishment for those who worshipped idols.
B. It says and I quote: "1:26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
1:27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity."

Notice the wording of this? "Exchanged Natural relations for Unnatural". This refers to those who change this sexual desire just for lust. NOT for those who were born as homosexual or not. The people referred to in the quote ar those wish to have same-gender sex to appease their lust. The homosexuals we all here are talking about (An assumption, I know, but I am 95% sure I am true in assuming this) are those kids who are raised homosexual, or those with chemical imbalances that have NO CONTROL OVER THE FACT THEY ARE HOMOSEXUAL. Please, if you are going to use the bible to back up your statements, at least look for more than one viewpoint.
Oh, and Saint Paul introduced this viewpoint, not me. Keep in mind the bible was not meant to be taken literally, or we'd all be missing eyes and teeth.

Oh, and finally, I think you have trouble placing yourself in a single religion simply because no one believes what you do. Kinda odd, don't you think?

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"The future is not determined by a throw of the dice, but is determined by the conscious decisions of you and me."
I am addicted to ellipses!!! AHHH!!! ...
Make Sorrowind Worthwhile... join it! http://sorrowind.net

[This message has been edited by Cool Matty (edited June 04, 2004).]

Because it's what we believe? I'm not sure who gave you the impression that people follow a religion because it makes life easy. They follow a religion because it's what they believe. The argument is often brought forth, "Someone being homosexual doesn't hurt you," and so now, I ask you, if a person is taught that it is wrong to kill outside of self-defense, and that homosexuality is wrong, but homosexuals are people, who is being hurt?

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

Ok, this this has gotten quite long enough that i'm not going to read it all. i jsut want to straighten out soemthing that Mort-Hog got rather incredibly wrong, and which hasn't been adressed:



This is wrong. very, very wrong. Homosexuality is not considered evil, at least not by the catholic church. the act is considered wrong, and wether or tnot that is right is something different. however, the church does not say that every homosexual is the spawn of satan or anything like that. The people themselves are normally considered perfectly fine.

Next point. You also seriously messed up Soddom and Gomorrah. It was not that two people were 'sexually impure' the entire population was sexually impure. ANd that incudes orgies, rape, beatiallity, incest and a hell of alot of other things, not jsut homosexuallity. Abraham himself pleaded on their behalf, and God told him if he found one single person that was worth, out of the entire cities, they would be spared. it didn't happen.

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW
A Knight's Tail
Exile: A Tale of Light in Dark
The Never Ending Story²[/i]

Ahah. I stand corrected.
What was special about Soddom and Gomorah (ie, why are they mentioned by name) anyway?

Weren't they the names of the two cities?

Anyway, I agree with Wolfy. If a parent wants to teach that homosexuality is wrong, then they should have that right. But they should also teach that prejedice is wrong, too.

[Edit: I would also like to say how funny it is that Hitler comes up in nearly every internet debate.]

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"I'd rather be hated for who I am rather than loved for who I pretend to be." -Janis Joplin

[This message has been edited by Vincent Valentine (edited June 04, 2004).]

That sounds like something Hitler would say!

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

Bah!

Somehow I KNEW Obi was Baptist. I have never met a more liberal group of conservatives in my life. They're conservative in their beliefs, and liberal in their forcings... er I mean teachings. I also fail to understand why so many Christians tell other Christians that they are not REAL Christians. You know you all think that ol' JC is a pretty hip guy and he had a hell of a lifestyle going, so why don't you just play nice and stop calling each other wrong.

Love thy neighbor, right? Yeah, but only if he prays to the same invisible man in the sky that you do.

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I don't think you really want to read this anyway.

This is something I definitely agree with. Whilst I see nothing wrong with homosexuality myself, I understand others feel differently and see no problem teaching their children in the manner above. That way whilst the child may believe it is wrong they are not about to persecute anyone over it.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Okay, that seems like a nice and lovely idea in theory, but when the child is brought up to think 'it is wrong' what exactly are they going to think?

Will they think, it is wrong for me to be homosexual? That 'right and wrong' defines how I personally should live my life, but not how others should live theirs? That seems okay (unless of course that child wants to be homosexual).
If, however, they are brought to believe that 'right and wrong' is how everyone is judged, then how will they treat a homosexual if they know that he is 'wrong'? Yes, they might be taught not to 'persecute' them, so they won't beat the life out of him, but the fact still stands that they are being taught that homosexuals are different and should be treated differently. Why is this?
How exactly are they going to believe that homosexuality is 'wrong' and yet still treat a homosexual as an equal, and not discriminate against them? For surely the teachings also follow that you should try to help people do the 'right' thing (which is usually interpreted as trying to convert non-Christians), so surely they would try to make the homosexual become heterosexual?

I don't see how a child can be taught that a homosexual is wrong and yet still not discriminate and treat them differently, without the concept of 'wrong' being downright irrelevant.