Soddom and Gamorrah were destroyed because the people were vain and didnt give enough back to their own community. it wasnt because they were DOING those things, its that they were so wrapped up in what they were doing they didnt do anything else. the lesson is not that homosexuality is wrong, its that you should let your desires of the flesh rule everything you do.

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<Dormouse> there are very few things quite as comforting as smelling like a close friend.

We are only human, perfect in our imperfections. - Erin amie du Dor

<Dormouse> it's really cute in the way that a sherman tank with a fuzzy steering wheel is cute

(I assume you mean 'shouldn't'?)

Well, it was also that they were doing those things, because when God sent the two angels to Lot, the entire population got together and told lot to give them over to them for rape.

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW
A Knight's Tail
Exile: A Tale of Light in Dark
The Never Ending Story²[/i]

CM, God many times punishes wicked by letting them descend further into their wickedness, damning them selves further. He call’s homosexuality "doing what is shameful". Besides, if it were fine to do, then why would God let them do it as a punishment? If you like, I can round up several more Bible references than
Romans 1 that condemn homosexuality. People do this because they want to, not because they have to. A genetic predisposition only means that it is a easier for some one to do something. Only 60% of people who have a genetic predisposition to being alcoholics are alcoholics.

We must understand that God created us, and the only reason for our very existence is to glorify God. Why God chose to save us after Adam fell, I don't know, but it sure as heck was the most amazing thing ever done. I'm comfortable that when I die I will be with Christ, not because I'm good, far from it, but God chose to save me. We're all born sinful and therefore I'm just as bad a person as a homo, a mass murder, or some kind of rapist. I don't know why God chose to save me or any one, but I sure as heck am glad. I sure hope you're saved too. All you have to do is ask God to save you form your sins and admit that you can do nothing about them. Then you will have eternal life in Christ. I argue these issues because they are important and deserve to be argued. I think I have presented my position pretty well, and am going to sign off this thread unless directly confronted.


[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited June 04, 2004).]

If God made us, he knows exactly how we work, and therefore if we act like that he planned it. Right?

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

...yeah, and I never met a bunch of dogs that were more cat in my life.

And apparently if you started on the insane statments on page one instead of two or three, everybody goes nuts that much earlier. Get out before the nonsense disease catches you too!

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Dude I've seen girls and I've seen lobsters, and that is totally a lobster.

-Correction

Oh, and Tracer, it's called AIDS.

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited June 04, 2004).][/B][/QUOTE]

You do know that this is the year 2004. not 1960. there were posters (paper things with info on them) in high schools in the mid 70s that said that it isn't only gays that get AIDS. Also, most people with AIDS don't have sex with people just to give them AIDS. The only people who would do that are people that have always commited sex crimes.

If this was a board moderated underr Australian law, someone might be able to sue you for sexual harassment as homophobic comments such as yours are considdered to be very offensive.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

Just because you dont mond, doesn't mean that everyone else doen't mond having their oppinion insulted. How would you feel if someone made a generalisasion like all people of your religion are ****ing idiots and deserve to die. you would be very very, very, very angry. so don't go saying that you don't mind something is an excuse to do it.

If someone said as a defence in a mass murder case that they wouldn't mind being killed, is that an excuse, NO it is not.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

If God allows children to be born with brain defects, physical disablities, blindess, etc., then perhaps some people are born with a body that's a different gender than their soul (if you believe in that sort of thing). If that occurs, then which gender should that person seek after? The match for their body or the match for their soul?

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"I'd rather be hated for who I am rather than loved for who I pretend to be." -Janis Joplin

<3 skit house

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

Brian, please ban Obi_Kwiet, the only reason that he seems to have joined is to express his "gays-are-evil" beliefs and to cause trouble. Even pugler knew that. he just spent his time insulting people such as short people. he knew that he could get in more trouble if he posted ultra contravesial things.

also, isn't it strange how conservitive and contraversial are simmilar?

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

Negative. The fact that someone knows something is happening does not mean that they caused it to happen.

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

Wow. I wasn't aware that Australia had outlawed free speech. Mind you, I too have found a few of Obi's statements rather misguided, some even offensive, but sexual harassment? That's ridiculous.

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

...yeah I'm not exactly sure what Alpha's on about with that one either - Australia has no such laws to charge someone over comments like this.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

I sure wish it did, though, Jeff..

Goodbye, Howard! And then we could change it back again.

The problem with this "teach your kids that homosexuality is wrong but that prejudice is worse" is that it's not going to work. How can you see that something about someone is inherently sick and wrong, and yet treat them like you'd treat anyone else? You can't. Further, what if this child ends up BEING gay. They know it's sick and wrong, and they're supposed to treat themselves the same?

There's a reason suicide is many times higher among gay teens than straight ones. And continuing to tell them that they're sick and wrong, despite how you may act towards them, isn't going to help it any.

Okay there sparky... just because two words have the same first 3 letters doesn't mean they are similar.

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"If there's one thing I've learned it's this - you just can't shake hands with a fist" - David Allen Coe

If I had a dollar for every time someone told me I needed jesus in my life, because I'm bisexual, I could afford a pistol and a single bullet.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

desert eagle .50?

This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven

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People who get murdered are victims, people who get killed in war are casualties and people who don't get killed at all are just plain boring. -Said by me-

In my dream world people wear trenchcoats and piss on sanity's grave.

Now that I got that over with: I'll just mention a set of principles I hold dear to my heart: Open-mindedness (respect other's rights and opinions, even though you might not agree with them, understand diversity and sample different ideas and thoughts), critique (the media, other people, statistics, scientists, religious authorities etc. try tell us how things are: always remember that there are humans behind those forces and humans have a tendency to be wrong about things, so always remember to critisize things, including yourself), remember that the biggest obstacle in your life resides between your ears (always remember that the world offers a world of possibilities and intrigue, one can do so many things in a lifetime it's astonishing, so let go of yourself).
I believe in the principle that a person has rights that stop where another person's rights begin. Simple principle, which combined with common sense and reason is an extremely comfortable and flexible enough ethical code.

As for the religious part of this discussion: I am an atheist and I'm not an angsty, depressed, lost soul hating every religion there is. I have a sense of right and wrong and I aknowledge them as parts of human existence. I don't believe in a universal code of right or wrong and I don't believe in right and wrong as anything but psychological ideas, but that doesn't make the concepts any less real in my life. I'm an empathic and loving person and I hold life sacred (even though I don't really believe it is). Notice the contradiction? It's there alright, but does make my beliefs completely invalid? No.

Our ideas, ethics, beliefs and thoughts are products of the society around us. Even new ideas won't spring to life without old ones taken from our surroundings. Things should be looked through a wide scope of reason, open-mindedness and critique. Understand wholes and contexts of little things that make up that whole before you judge things. Place yourself in the shoes of other people (like the gay child who keeps hearing that his sexual orientation is a disgustingly wrong disease) and the world just might become more clear.
Just my 2 cents, no major point really. Just a viewpoint presented to you.

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People who get murdered are victims, people who get killed in war are casualties and people who don't get killed at all are just plain boring. -Said by me-

In my dream world people wear trenchcoats and piss on sanity's grave.

Theres been a lot of very valid points here... and some moronic ones.
But wether you are for or against it homosexuality is here to stay No point pretending theres no such thing as same sex couples, because there are.

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I AM NOT SKOOJ!!!

And that's why I love Morpheous with everything in me.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

I don't think anyone's contesting that point. Homosexuality is, by far, not a recent development in humanity. What's being contested is whether or not toleration is the same thing as acceptance -- and the fact is, it isn't. I'm comfortable with my belief that homosexuality is wrong, but that homosexuals are people. Some people apparently have trouble understanding this point of view, and would prefer that I simply change my system of beliefs to better suit them, and that's what grates on my nerves. I'm willing to tolerate them, but they're not willing to tolerate me. A tad hypocritical, if you ask me.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

I've only been asking questions.
Why is it that you think that homosexuality is 'wrong'? You seem to be incapable of questioning yourself.


This isn't just "this is my opinion, that is your opinion", I'm afraid this isn't quite that simple. For me to 'change' your belief, as you yourself have stated, is not particularly easy, because of the way you have been brought up.
The point here, though, is about how you are to bring up your children. A child's mind is like a sponge, soaking up its influences. You are going to teach your child that 'homosexuality is wrong'. Yes, you may also teach 'tolerance' and 'respect', but nonetheless you will teach them that 'homosexuality is 'wrong'.
Why?
You've ignored a point I've made twice before, so I'll make it again. Teaching that to your child is not beneficial for the child and it is not beneficial for society. It doesn't really matter how you phrase it, what else you teach him, the child will believe that homosexuality is in some way different, or unacceptable. Firstly, this will cause serious problems if your child wishes to be homosexual. Secondly, and more importantly, this will affect your child's interactions when he meets a homosexual. Yes, you preach 'tolerance', in the same way that you might be 'tolerant' of someone with tourettes, or 'tolerant' of a homeless man on the street.
Imagine another child, that's simply been brought up to learn about homosexuality but doesn't really think anything of it, doesn't think it's "wrong" but also has no particular interest in being homosexual. If that individual were to, say, work alongside a homosexual, I'm sure you can imagine that they will work with them with no problems whatsoever, while your child, while tolerant of it, would certainly have internal conflicts regarding it. Surely the second child is much better off?

I'm almost certain that you're going to say something along the lines of "It's my child and you have no right to tell me how to raise my children".
Well, that's just it. It's not just your child. How you raise your child will affect me, and it will affect my children, it will affect the school he goes to, it will affect the community and it will affect society. No, it is not simply 'your child' as if he were a precious diamond to be locked away in a cupboard. It is everyone's child, because it will affect everyone.

I'll just try to clarify. The belief is that a man and a man or a woman and a woman can not love each other in the same way a man and a woman can. There is something different about this relationship, the two being of different sex completing each other in a way a friend can't, providing the other, in union with God, with what they are missing.
The idea is that the "alternative lifestyle" movement of the homosexual relationship equaling the heterosexual relationship is a lie. It bothers people because it is another step in the long line of the government affirming that love=sex.

Now this is a belief, which should not be forced on those who don't accept it. But you must understand, a belief is not the same as an opinion; it does not allow for compromise. There will probably be homosexual marraiges, and these couples will probably be allowed adoption rights eventually.
Even still, one will uphold his or her beliefs no matter what, and anyone would be foolish to think it can be dropped or compromised. In the minds of a believer it is the truth, because it is believed.

You probably think this is a load of crap, but I believe it, and it makes sense to me in context of all I know and believe. You believe otherwise; would you give up the truth you accept in the face of what you recognise to be a lie?

I think it was Cardinal O'Connor who once said the Christian's job was to act as a "counter culture," upholding the truth against a world that will never accept it. That is the nature of faith.

But, whatever...

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

I wish Americans would stop confuseing the difference between making it wrong to say extremely desriminatory things and outlawing free speech. We have social support programs. Does that make us "evil commies"? No it doesn't.

stop assumming that making something illegal or requireing people to do something (seatbelts come to ind) with being a loss of freedoms.

Mabey that is why there is so much rasicm in the U.S., because noone is brave enough to make discrimination illegal.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

It is not hypocritical. They have every right not to tollerate people who think their way of life is wrong. If you can't accept that homosexuality is not wrong, they cannot be expected to tollerate people who think that way.


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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

[trying to get this back on topic]
I think that this beat-up of play school is just that, a beat-up.
If kids can understand the politics, they are probably watching playschool with a much younger sibling.
If they are of the target audience, how the hell are they going to know about the politics of the situation.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

I... uh... believe these things conflict with each other. That's kind of the whole point of 'free speech'.

[This message has been edited by fourwood (edited June 05, 2004).]

The real test of free speech is whether you grant it to those whose opinions you find disagreeable or offensive.

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

*assassinates Michael MacFarlane*

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

[I'm not addressing you personally, but the general question.]

I may be way off base here, but I've come to realize that there may be a difference between a sin and something that is wrong. A sin is something that displeases God. Something that is wrong is something that causes misfortune to another in some way. Sometimes a sin is something that is wrong. Sometimes, it's not. Is sex outside of marriage a sin? According to most religions, yes. Is it wrong? I would say no because I can't see anything wrong with it by itself (unless you start factoring in things like STDs and stuff). "Wrong" is a subjective term; it's definition varies from person to person. The only problem I see with this is that we cannot examine what's happening spiritually, if spirituality exists.

To conclude, it's for reasons like this that I think there's a difference in definitions between a sin and a wrongful act. I'm fine in accepting these things as sins. I view homosexuality as sin, yet I have homosexual and bisexual friends (and used to be one myself). We ALL sin, and it annoys me that people think that homosexuality is some "greater" sin than the others. It's not.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness
Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

One thing that really bugs me is that it is assumed that because I think something is wrong I must hate the person doing it. It also really bothers me when a person's behavior is marked as something that the person has no control over. There's is a big difference between behavior and a state of being. It's silly to say that it's wrong for me to be black, since I would have no control over such a thing, but I don't see why people try to jump on the civil rights wagon with things such as choices and behavior. Show me the study that even proves that a homosexual is born that way and has no control over his or her behavior. That myth has been perpetuated long after several failed attempts to find genetic links to homosexual behavior. We know that sexuality is is very malleable in humans, so why is it wrong to conclude that a person can be influenced to accept and embrace sexually deviant behavior?

"Studies have proven," should be struck from the phrase usage of any person seriously trying to empirically arrive at any conclusion. Studies never "prove" anything. If I were an honest-minded person, which I honestly believe myself to be, I would look critically at any literature from either side of this debate. Question a study that says that there are no negative effects on children being raised by homosexual parents. What are the criteria used to determine that a child has suffered from negative effects of being raised by homosexual parents? No time in jail? No violent offences? What do they mean. Can anyone honestly say that being raised in a certain way that deviates from the norm won't have some effect on the child? I hope that the type of parents you have does affect you, otherwise what's the point of even trying to guide children while raising them? Studies can be misleading.Take the studies performed by Kinsey that started the whole 10% of the population, wherein he used people from prison, etc., in order to arrive at conclusions about normal sexual behavior.

As far as raising chinldren in a bubble, of course we should raise them in a bubble! Who wants to destroy the innocence of youth by exposing them to the harshness of reality? Of course we should protect them from things we think are wrong, and allow them to decide for themselves about what's right and what's wrong when they're old enough to think for themsleves and be accountable for their actions. It's a controversial issue. No one has the right to say that all children watching tv should be exposed to this debate, reality or not.

My real advice is to critically analyze everything before jumping to conclusions that coincidentally enough support your pre-conceived notions about how things are supposed to be. This whole tolerence thing goes both ways, too. I can tolerate someone being wrong about this issue, even if it bugs me. If you truly are a champion of tolerance, then please tolerate my not-so-minority view that homosexuality is wrong and a detriment to our society.

P.S. Here's a good link that takes a look at the "other side" of this issue without resorting to name-calling or hatred. http://www.jefflindsay.com/gays.html If you are christian, please follow your religion by not hating people. It really gives the rest of us a bad rep and helps those who like to generalize and reduce everything erroneously arrive at the conclusion that we're only driven by our strong feelings about the subject.

[This message has been edited by adrenal_medulla (edited June 06, 2004).]

Actually, they're protected by the right to freedom of speech. As long as it's not threatening someone's life or ruining them socially (slander/libel), it's constitutionally protected.



So it's okay for them to tell me my choices of life are wrong because they believe them to be, but it's not okay for me to do the same to them? That's not hypocrisy? I'm not advocating or supporting the idea that I have some divine right to tell people how to live their lives. What I am advocating and supporting is my right to believe how I believe, because what I've chosen to believe does not harm anyone else. Decry all you want about how it negatively affects my friendships with gay people, but the fact of the matter is that you would have demonstrated your ignorance of my standpoint by stating such.



Because I believe it to be an immoral thing? If you haven't seen any of my previous posts with relation to subjects like these, I'm a Christian. As such, I believe homosexuality to be an immoral, sinful thing.



No. They're on equal footing, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure why you have this impression that simply because a person thinks that homosexuality is wrong that they can't normally associate with that person. It's perfectly possible, and I do it all the time -- events like the Rocky Horror Picture Show, especially around Halloween, are not what one would consider a very...conservative Christian event. You claim to have knowledge over something you yourself don't experience, and cite that they'll have "internal conflicts," yet I know from my own personal experience that it's entirely possible to maintain friendships with homosexuals with as good quality as any heterosexual.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

[This message has been edited by Wolfy (edited June 06, 2004).]

Actually, it was illegalized in the US constitution, 14th amendment. Although a paradox lies in not allowing women to vote until the 20th century, you're about 140 (give or take a few) years late. Since the constitutional amendment, a myriad of state laws against discrimination have been ratified.

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If you can read this, you need better glasses.

Okay, so you've shown that you can treat homosexuals as equals, without discrimination, that's good. But you still think that 'homosexuality is wrong'. What does that mean? Someone else responded to that above quite interestingly, and I may or may not respond to that eventually, but what exactly do you mean by 'homosexuality is wrong'? If you can see that they are human beings and that they are the same as you, then what 'wrong' exactly is there? What difference would it make it they were not 'wrong'? Is 'wrong' just a personal thing, whereby to judge your personal life, and not others?
I would like to add, though, that this debate isn't so much about you, but rather about your children (see original post).
Would you rather raise your children in a way that will give them 'traditional Christian values', or a way that will make them happy? (Yes, for the most part, the two won't contradict at all, but what if the child wishes to do something that goes against Christian values in order to be happy?)
Surely it should be more important for a child to live a happy life than a Christian life?
Or you could take a lassez-fair attitute to parenting and simply allow the child to see the world without your influence.



I thought one of the fundemental elements of Christianity (And Islam, but not Judaism interestingly) is to spread and teach Christianity wherever you go and converting non-Christians. Saves God the trouble of putting prophets everywhere, I suppose. But surely if you're supposed to teach Christianity, you're supposed to make homosexuals heterosexual as well?
Or does this only apply to one particular denomination? I know Jehovah's Witnesses seem to follow this line of thought.


Not that it's made much difference, the racism in America is quite ridiculous.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited June 06, 2004).]

I see homosexuality being wrong in the same way I see believing in another religion as wrong. I believe it to be wrong because a book I believe to be divinely-inspired says so. However, I'm able to successfully co-exist with people of differing theological beliefs. I'm a nondenominational Christian (don't fit into any one mainstream group), and disagree strongly with the Catholic church, yet many of my friends are Catholic. The others are atheists and wiccans. It's simply a matter of the fact that we don't agree on theological points, but have come to the agreement that there's no need to judge the other person because we think they've chosen an incorrect lifestyle. I guess the best answer to your question would be that I see my personal ethics as relating to my own person. Judgement of another person is inevitable, no matter what you're upbringing. The key is to accept the fact that by aggressively trying to get that person to accept your views is going to a lot of harm before it starts to do any good, if it does any good at all.

As for the issue of raising my children, it's something of a moot plan, given my plans for (or lack thereof) of a family. But were I to have a child, I would raise them in a house which I would believe to be Christian, but I wouldn't pussyfoot around issues -- come the appropriate age, I would discuss things like sex and masturbation with my kids. Also, once they head off to college, I would hope I realize that any direct control I had over them was pretty much gone at that point, and at least prepare them for the fact that college is a very, very different social situation than the one they had probably been raised in.



I take a passive approach to evangelism. People I know know what I believe in, and I'm willing to tell them about my religion if they so wish, but if I actively try to persuade them to join my religion, I'm either going to drive them off or force them into a decision they don't want.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

I totally agree with wolfy.

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/fluffle

I also agree with wolfy.

I'm bisexual, but I still think homosexuality is incorrect. Why? Nature. It's not natural to have feelings toward someone of the opposite sex. Naturally, love isn't even a concept. Naturally, we're here to reproduce. Now, I'm not saying christians are wrong in how they believe it's wrong, because I also believe it's wrong. But you ask, how can I still be bisexual? Just because I think something I do isn't accomplishing anything, it doesn't mean I won't do it. Love, a completelly human thing, is something I embrace openly. I don't think I could actually have a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex, that's silly. To base a relationship with anyone only on sex is rediculous: Unless you're reproducing.

In a sense, the reason homosexuality is wrong to me is the same reason christians claim it's wrong: It's a waste of time. No reproduction is going on. The reason why I still accept it, and take part in those acts, despite my belief of it's silliness, is because of love. Someone above said Love != Sex.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

I didn't even bother to read this entire hellhole thread, but I guess the issue has gone, once again, to whither homosexuality is wrong or not.

My views: Wrong? No. Would I ever do it? Probably not. Do I care if someone is gay or not? No, just as long as they don't try to push me around with it. I'm done.

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.