So where did we leave off?
http://forums.massassi.net/vb3/showthread.php?p=609205#post609205

about there?

There ought to be a law against squirrels on islands.

Maybe there are no squirrels on islands. I've never seen one.

Yeah, there's no point in continuing this. SF_GoldG_01 already admitted defeat, even though he did it in an impossibly cowardly and spineless way.

I, the undersigned, hereby reissue my challenge to parties:

-SF_GoldG_01
-Obi_Kwiet
-Any other takers

, henceforth to be called 'the creationists', concerning the chromosome challenge, first issued as per (a).

The creationists are given a deadline of one (1) month, starting the fourteenth (14th) of January, 2006, effectively ending without defense on the fourteenth (14th) of February, 2006, 22.00 GMT. Should the time period required exceed the legal three (3) weeks, as defined by (b), the creationists shall start a new thread with their formal and ultimate response.

Failure to meet the proposed demands will allow the silence to speak for itself. Opposing parties, referred to henceforth as 'the scientists', will make claim to their right to point and laugh, and refer to the silence mentioned above in a humiliating manner. This right has no expiration date.

The challenge is reissued in a shorter, more comprehensible version below. Source is referred to in (c).

Long long ago, in a laboratory far far away, scientists figured out that chimpanzees have 24 chromosomes in their sperms and eggs, whereas humans only have 23. Therefore, these great scientists theorized that two of our chromosomes might have fused together sometime in the recent past (aka million years ago.). Their theory made 3 predictions:

1) One of our chromosomes would look like two of the chimp chromosomes stuck together.
2) This same chromosome would have an extra sequence in it that looked like a centromere. Centromeres are the things in the middle that microtubules grab onto to divide a pair of chromosomes during mitosis.
3) It would also have telomeres (ends) but in the middle - and they would be in reverse order. Sort of like this:

ENDchromosomestuffDNEENDchromosomestuffDNE

See the "DNEEND" in the middle? That's what two telomeres would look like if two chromosomes were stuck together.

Lo and behold, these theories were put to the test. To test prediction 1, know that chromosomes all have a unique banding pattern. A "fingerprint." To test 2 and 3, you need sequence data. Telomeres and centromeres have characteristic DNA sequences.

What did those scientists find:



H=human, C=chimp, G=Gorilla, O=orangutan.



and



So how about it, non-evolutionists? Here, staring you in the face is not only evidence that chimps are our cousins (they may explain your last family reunion) but also a clue as to how it occured: two chromosomes fused, which could have altered gene expression in ways to change body plans.

Happy refuting!

scigirl


(a) http://forums.massassi.net/vb3/showthread.php?t=38394&page=3&pp=40#post601582 , Chromosome fusing challenge, http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html

(b)http://forums.massassi.net/vb3/announcement.php?f=8, Massassi Temple Forum Announcements, Massassi Temple® Staff.

(c)http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=116447&highlight=scigirl+chromosome+challenge, Scigirl's famous chromosome challenge, Internet Infidels® Discussion Forum

Signed,
Tenshu
For the scientists

Tenshu wins, game over :p

You spelled the title wrong; it's squirrls, genius.

Jesus christ people, stop trying to beat the kid down into a pile of pulp, he's already given up. Maybe the first thread was closed for a clear reason?

[EDIT: I'm not being a mini-mod here, it's just really bothering me how some of you people are so relentless and cruel in showing people how 'right' they are.]

Nah.

Tenshu I'd love to read through all of that and try to come up with a theory, but it's just so long...

Easy. It was the flying spaghetti monster. Next?

I AM A GOD WARRIOR

Technically every continent in this world is an island. No matter what, you travel far enough in any direction you will connect watter.

Think about that one...

Up.

Europe isn't an island.

Owned.

Snakes on a Plane > Squirrels on Islands

Europe isn't an island but Europe and Asia and Africa are.

So hah.

And Jon, are you telling me there is no water in outer space? WTFever.

I thought Africa was an island?

Clouds.

[QUOTE=Michael MacFarlane]Europe isn't an island.[/QUOTE]

Point taken. Though if you travel far enough East you hit water, but by then you hit Asia.

Ok.. I really don't understand half that stuff... but from what I gather there is only a similarity in the chromosomes... and a alot of if's, mights, maybe's... maybe we are cousins... and I won't get into it scientificaly cause every time some one makes a claim, its discared, and new ones arises, and those are discarded, and more new ones arise, etc etc...

Yes, because new evidence is brought to light, disproving previous theories, so new theories must be formed. This is one of the underlying bases of the scientific method.

Which you cleary don't understand because if it were evidence, nothing would come out and cancel the previous statements/theories.

No, you don't understand. It's not like things go one way and change the other way sometimes.

For example..

Earth is Flat
Earth is Round
Come to find out, the earth bulges at the middle.
Come to find out, the shape of the eart changes depending on it's position around the sun.

See, new evidence is still evidence for the same thing, but it usually clarifies the old evidence, and puts it in it's true light.

Still... the bible claimed for a long time that the world was spherical and other claims as well, which were doubted and proven true... so why doubt the word of the one who's word is constantly being proven true.

The fact that the earth is a sphere was known before the Bible was written.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

Hmmm... *goes back to reading where I read that*

GO BATMAN!!

I'm still waiting for you to refute the points made in the other thread, SF_GoldG_01. Or for you to concede the argument.

I'm not letting you weasel out of this one. Be a man and make up your mind.

One at a time...

The other thread came first.

Why would you start up the thread after it was closed? Sort of apparent.

"If's" in my post: 1
"Might's" in my post: 1
"Maybe's" in my post: 0

Stop bearing false witness.

Yep. Lots of if's, mights, maybe'. The one "if" and the one "might" were formulated in the context of a prediction as well. 'If statement A is true, we have to see characteristic B'.

But whoopsee, there's an 'if' in there?!

What are you, Noam Chomsky?

Nice try dude, but try harder.

30 days.

Did you guys ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, Goldilocks doesn't know?

I mean, come on. Do you really think that he's an expert in theology? The kid's barely an expert in anything. Just because he doesn't know how to answer your questions doesn't mean that you "win". Take your argument to someone who actually knows what he's talking about, and stop harassing the poor kid. Hell, I think he's a dumbass, too, but this is seriously too much.

The phrase 'preaching to the converted' comes to mind.

Really? Because the phrase "Quit being an intolerant *******" comes to mine.

This is a common misconception people hold, that you should be tolerant to willfull functional retardation. Like the guy in the physics threads who kept insisting, without justification, that F=mv, despite every actually knowledgeable person in the universe accepting otherwise. Now imagine this utter stupidity moved to the field of biology, structured and encouraged, with millions of functional retards who don't have a clue what they're talking about.

If we can give the physics guy **** for his bull****, we can give Gold, religious or not, **** for his.

And yours too, A_Big_Fat_CoW. I wrote in my original challenge any other takers, which means you can have a crack at it too. Go for it, or forever hold your peace. The power of science compels you!

The claim that the challenge is "too difficult to understand" is ridiculous. You know what chromosomes and telomeres look like, you know what chromosome banding is. I chose this particular challenge because it only requires a VERRRY basic knowledge of genetics, and any 12 year old, if given a short description of chromosomes, can visualize the problem in their head.

If you can't, you have no business giving me or all biologists in the world a hard time for anything, or calling me names. Literally none at all. F will never equal mv.

30 days.

What are you even talking about?

I said stop picking on the kid because he's an idiot, and you suddenly jump on my *** and tell me to prove you wrong, as if I somehow suggested that I want to get involved in this argument.

I don't.

If you want to argue biology, talk to a biologist. If you want to argue religion, talk to a priest. But quit being an ******* and harassing people just because they lack the education to answer your questions. It proves absolutely nothing. This isn't some game of chess where you have your opponent in checkmate, even though you're gloating like it is.

No, this is you picking on some poor idiot just because you're smarter than him. What are you trying to do? Prove how "superior" you are because no one else gives a **** to argue with you? Seriously, no one cares anymore. Gold even said that he didn't want to talk about it anymore. Why can't you leave it at that?

The last thread was closed for a reason. Let it die.

That's exactly right. What I'm asking is that people who don't care about truth or knowing what they're talking about, stop pretending that they do. You said it right. You said it EXACTLY, EXACTLY right. "Noone cares anymore"... So why should people who are interested in outdated things like knowledge and thinking pretend that the opinion of these idiots are up to par with their own? Let's ****ing rub it in.

There's two options. You either are honestly interested in what you're talking about. You read up, research, investigate, and possibly even tackle the challenge presented above.

Or you remain quiet. You keep your twisted views of 'knowing better' to yourself. You don't tell even your children, in order to give them an opportunity to actually become smart. I know I won't tell my children or anyone else about my distorted views of ornithology or the works of Coetzee. I know **** about Coetzee. I don't 'just know better' about Coetzee.

This challenge is presented to those who violate these two options. And what do you know, this is probably every single creationist who has every spoken up in these forums. And now that it's actually a time to speak, they remain quiet. How incredibly ****ing anti-honest.

This challenge still stands. 30 days.