Not really. It just doesn't follow the rules of writing--it's art. It's different.

It follows the rules of grafitti writing.
If arbitrarily defying rules is artistic, then wouldn't it be more artistic to do grafitti in a traditional calligraphic style?

This derail has been amazing.

I love how all of Gold's threads get inflated to 3+ pages by thread delrailation.

Whoa, they're all like...the same person.

Does anyone else see the stupidity in writing a book about "how to get girls."

That would be like writing a "videogame strategy guide" that works for all games.

Prima should get on that. It would save them alot of time and paper.

It's not the arbitrarily defying rules that's artistic, it's just that because of its form of art it doesn't follow the basic rules of writing. Though I'm sure there's graffiti out there that follow at least some of the calligraphic stylings.

Tenshu. that picture makes me want to punch people

Whenever I see Gold's name as the thread starter, I just have to laugh because who can take him seriously?

Art = Composition

9 times out of 10, graffiti has ****ty composition.

And word art sucks.

I think this thread is possibly the best thread I've ever read on any forum

Not really. But yay for being uninformed!

Also, composition has nothing to do with a lot of art. Art is the physical expression of emotion, not the physical expression of composition. Stop acting like you know what you're talking about.

Let's be fair, the vast majority of graffiti you see (in the UK at least) is incomprehensible spraypaint tagging and scratched markings on bus windows. It's not art it's just the human equivalent of a tomcat marking it's territory.

[url]www.graffiti.org[/url]
It's art. Have you ever met the people that do it? No. You don't understand how they see it, and what else they do. Trust me, it's art.

A lot of times it doesn't matter if graffiti is legible or not. It's more about mark making, addressing the environment where the tag is, composition (specific examples coming up later), rhythm, pattern, color, etc. Rhythm and pattern are frequently disregarded in mainstream "art," which I think is one reason graffiti is frowned upon... people genuinely don't get it. Legibility is an afterthought, the letters they've chosen give them different visual possibilities. One tagger (graffiti artist) friend of mine just has a nonsense name with a coupld of numbers in it. I asked him why, and he said, "You can do some sweet things with a '4'. "

Art is easier to handle when it's in a small scale, in a location the viewer selects - museums, galleries, books, etc. You can address it at your leisure and never feel threatened by the little discount reproductions you bought at Barnes and Noble. You chose to view them, so you have some kind of selective power in the viewing.

Graffiti doesn't always work like that. Mural sized graffiti is too big to ignore. As a viewer, that threatens you. It's like you didn't give your consent. And in America, the land where property is so easily equated with personal rights, having your property altered without your consent can be kinda traumatizing.

Well, outside the possible ethical issue of property rights, it's still art. Outside of the loose definition that taggers are consciously producing or arranging colors, forms, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium, taggers also conform to the more strict/pretensious visual art qualities that apply to painting, drawings and murals. (thanks dictionary.com for the verbose definition of art). :p

Example 1 - the mailbox image attached. Look at the rhythm, the way the marks direct your eye from any point they enter the large word at the bottom, and direct them across the entire image. It's not a pile of twigs, it wasn't randomly selected. Just check out the way the graffiti addresses the borders of its support (the mailbox) in a more conscious way than I see a lot of painting these days do. Its placement and its form are not accidental, it was "produced/arranged in a manner that affects the sense of beauty."

Example 2 - this large mural This one is really stunning. The organic forms of the graffiti interact wonderfully with the geometric boundries the wall has set for it. Also look at the contrast between the red and the green of the tree - this color relationship is almost certainly not accidental, as the graffiti was probably put up shortly before this picture was taken and they rarely last long afterwards. Can you read what this one says? Maybe. Does it matter what it says? Not at all.

There is, of course, graffiti that does nothing more than try to bring its maker some kind of demented fame by spreading around the poorly written nickname they've chosen. To be fair, a lot of "high art" is like this as well. There are pretensious painters, dancers, actors, musicians.. and there are pretensious taggers as well. Like any art form, people get into it for different reasons. Hopefully I elaborated on some of the more noble ones. :p

I can't even remember the original topic anymore.

No kidding. I saw someone's post about getting girls at the end of page 2 and was all like 'wtf are you talking about foo'. :p

WTF does grafiti have to do with girls? Why are you even discussing it... any how, the gang buisness is not something to discuss or anything as it only lasted a month or two. This book will be based on what I've done, and how it works. Since I don't know how to say/write some things in English, I will expresions that will be previously defined such as buena onda, fajadas, dar el rol, and other expressions.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO how dare you bring this crap here?



A+ idea by the way. Comedy GOLD.

....I don't know what to say.

Sure I've seen them do it. They tend to be a couple of chavs who sit there on the bus trying to hide the fact they're taking a coin or a pair of keys to the window and badly etching 4 or 5 random letters that makes up their tag. It's nothing as elabourate as the images you like to show us all there. I actually do appreciate the ones where some effort has gone into it, but these are quickly sprayed random letters so that the "artist" can point them out to his mates and gain some sort of street cred.
It's difficult finding pictures of this sort of graffiti online because most of the pics are of the murals or elabourate tags that have taken some sort of effort and creativity.
These links are both typical examples:
http://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/upload070204/scio34466-in-service-for-a-week.JPG
http://www.chela.co.uk/images/graffiti-busR2.jpg
Basically what I'm saying is, some is art and I can aaccept that. But if I ran around at night scrawling "Recusant" all over every surface I could find, would you actually call that art? I'm talking about the kind of graffiti that takes 3 or 4 seconds to do and is then repeated over and over and over all over the place.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi][url]www.graffiti.org[/url]
It's art. Have you ever met the people that do it? No. You don't understand how they see it, and what else they do. Trust me, it's art.[/QUOTE]

You know, this reminds me of "The Fountain" by Marcel Duchamp. In other words, you can call anything art, no matter how inane it is. So saying "It's art" isn't really a proof of value. I could punch you in the face and declare the black eye I gave you is a symbolic representation of the hidden equality in all of us, blah blah, and say that it's my live work of art. In the end, it's still me punching you in the face, violating your space.

MOST Graffiti is the same way in many respects. Thrawn, you and others posted those works that are aesthetically pleasing on some levels, but tell me, in the Bronx, how many times will you see that over just random scribbles a 3 year old could do? It's just hoodlums pissing on their territory, no matter how deep they think it is or how they try to justify it. To put it another way, would you like it if they went and tagged up your house? It's art, right? I mean, an art connoisseur such as yourself would be honored to have this on the side of your house.

In summary, I couldn't care less what the artists think. It's **** I have to see every day that looks ugly and brings the area down. It discourages buisnesses to move in and is just a hassle for everyone else. For the sake of their "art" they bring their own community down.

Might as well out a side rant: billboards, ect. It's just corporate graffitti. What the hell's with that crap?

Usually the graffiti artists who do the good stuff are pretty contemptuous of the people who do what you're talking about Recusant. For what it's worth. :p

Well, there's more of Recusant's type than your type. That's pretty much what it can boil down to.

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]You know, this reminds me of "The Fountain" by Marcel Duchamp. In other words, you can call anything art, no matter how inane it is. So saying "It's art" isn't really a proof of value. I could punch you in the face and declare the black eye I gave you is a symbolic representation of the hidden equality in all of us, blah blah, and say that it's my live work of art. In the end, it's still me punching you in the face, violating your space.

MOST Graffiti is the same way in many respects. Thrawn, you and others posted those works that are aesthetically pleasing on some levels, but tell me, in the Bronx, how many times will you see that over just random scribbles a 3 year old could do? It's just hoodlums pissing on their territory, no matter how deep they think it is or how they try to justify it. To put it another way, would you like it if they went and tagged up your house? It's art, right? I mean, an art connoisseur such as yourself would be honored to have this on the side of your house.

In summary, I couldn't care less what the artists think. It's **** I have to see every day that looks ugly and brings the area down. It discourages buisnesses to move in and is just a hassle for everyone else. For the sake of their "art" they bring their own community down.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between just Tags and Graffiti. To a point the actual tag is art--trying to get the flow of the words just right. But it's also art in that there's an entire different style that you could see people who really are into graffiti as an artform will express it on every medium--drawings, paintings, drawings on the computer, every medium.

Also, close minded ****s like you piss me off. Please, do try to give me a black eye, I think the results would be absolutely hilarious.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]There's a difference between just Tags and Graffiti. To a point the actual tag is art--trying to get the flow of the words just right. But it's also art in that there's an entire different style that you could see people who really are into graffiti as an artform will express it on every medium--drawings, paintings, drawings on the computer, every medium.

Also, close minded ****s like you piss me off. Please, do try to give me a black eye, I think the results would be absolutely hilarious.[/QUOTE]

It's an example, you twit, of violating someone's space. LOLZ, HE'S GONNA TRY TO PUNCH ME IN DEH FAZE!

I hate pretend "open minded" people like you who try to defend stupid crap. You completely ignored the points I made, good job. Would you or would you not like it on your dwelling? If not, then can it you hypocrite.

Addendum: Also, it seems close minded is a catchphrase for "you don't follow my mindset, therefore you are deficent in some way". It's getting rather trite by now.

my friend was caught spraying **** THE POLICE on a wall in foot tall letters once when he was drunk, the police caught him at the end of POLICE, so it says **** THE POLICF and on the lower horozontal stick in the F... it trails for about four feet because he started running.

I wouldn't call that art.

This is my impression of something else scrawled on a bus stop near me, i also know who did it simply got drunk and decided to vandalise it.

So if you don't mind me repeating myself. If I came round your hometown, and started writing "Recusant" everywhere all over shop fronts (maybe I should use that acid etch stuff to really make it permanent too!), walls, people's houses, even your own. You'd be able to just look at it and think of it as art? It's vandalism! It's all about marking territory and proving to your mates how daring you are for breaking the law, in such a way that everybody can see it. Can't you see both sides of the coin?

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]To put it another way, would you like it if they went and tagged up your house? It's art, right? I mean, an art connoisseur such as yourself would be honored to have this on the side of your house. [/QUOTE]

I don't have a house. But if it were well done and relatively benign (i.e.done as an art piece and not as shallow self-promotion or gang marking), I think I could deal with it.

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]
In summary, I couldn't care less what the artists think.[/QUOTE]

Clearly they don't care what you think either. :p

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]Well, there's more of Recusant's type than your type. That's pretty much what it can boil down to.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but Recusant's type has less surface area. :p

Well, fair enough then. Thanks for the polite response, heh...

Yeah, I still agree with Rec, but if you are willing to have graffiti, then it shows that you don't have some sort of double standard at least.

Heh, I don't think they can. Maybe they have a problem with the "personal property" part. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, some people are just against the fact that people own property or land in some way, and that there exist priviate holdings which can lead to ineqality and seperation of classes.

Tagging is not art, it's noteriety. End of story.

Proper graffiti is art, but tagging just to put your name on someone's letterbox is ****ing vandalism. There's someone who puts "Risk" all over York, and it's a pain - it's not big, clever or pretty - it's just some chav tagging because he thinks it's clever.

As far as I'm concerned this is not up for debate.

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]It's an example, you twit, of violating someone's space. LOLZ, HE'S GONNA TRY TO PUNCH ME IN DEH FAZE!

I hate pretend "open minded" people like you who try to defend stupid crap. You completely ignored the points I made, good job. Would you or would you not like it on your dwelling? If not, then can it you hypocrite.

Addendum: Also, it seems close minded is a catchphrase for "you don't follow my mindset, therefore you are deficent in some way". It's getting rather trite by now.[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, down to petty namecalling now are we? Didn't think it'd take long for you to degrade to it. Nonetheless...

I couldn't tell you what'd I do if someone spraypainted on my house...because I don't have one. I live in an apartment. If they decided to tag my apartment, I honestly couldn't care less. If people decided to tag the front of shops (which nobody really does unless they're out to be disrespectful, most people do it behind shops for a reason) then I couldn't care less. Honestly.

I see that it's vandalism--this is why graffiti artists should have walls where they can go and tag anytime they want. Not only that but there's always the alternative of Airbrushing. You see, you think that graffiti is the only way that artists express themselves and its not--most graffiti artists I know draw their **** all the time and have only done about 5 tags with a lot of planning behind them. Honestly, I understand it's vandalism, but that doesn't lessen the fact that it IS art, it IS an expression of one's personality, it's not just some kid trying to be cool (for the most part).

Spe--that may not be art, but he still could be an artist. A lot of artists draw really childish things once in a while. The only difference here is that it was on a wall.

Like I already said, though, there's a massive difference between those who just do tags and actual artists that think in the stylized nature of graffiti art, whose minds conform to that certain style. Seeing as how you guys look at it as a bane instead of as an art form (Talk about hypocrisy. Saying I can't see both sides of the coin.) I don't expect you to understand. I don't expect you to care. I just expect you to continue on being ignorant of the fact that there ARE artists out there who do graffiti--and most of the people who do graffiti that aren't in gangs are actually probably artists just trying to express themselves. Not just punk kids "marking their territory"

How the deuce did a thread about women and insulting Gold turn into a debate over the artistic merits of graffiti? Not only that, you people are getting worked up over it. Good god just let it go.

Good call, Kuat, the concept of personal property can be drastically different between the two groups. Material things are inherently transient... things fall apart. Graffiti artists realize their art is in danger from the moment they put it up.

Or maybe I just wanted an excuse to post this mural that was done on a snowbank

Yoshi, I appreciate there are kids out there who are talented and do DECENT graffiti - on our main train line out of the city northbound there are old carriages daubed in excellent stuff - but it doesn't take away from the fact that most of the crappy graffiti around cities here is just crap tagging. No thought put into it, no artistic expression - just some 'tard with a can and a rubbish monicker who wants his name to be seen.

Seriously.

I totally agree. Can we please get back to insulting SF_Gold?

I think it's a case of lack of experience of being at the receiving end. I used to work at a cornershop for a few years while I was still in high school. Graffiti was a pain, and when you take some level of pride in a place, you're going to hate it. I didn't mind it when they'd tag the window with a marker I can easily wipe off, but spray paint doesn't come off of brick and that acid etch stuff is unbelievably horrid stuff; nigh on irremovable. On top of that it doesn't brighten your day as a commuter in London. You can't even see out the windows on the back half of the top deck of a bus, and on the trains, what little you can see thanks to the etching on the windows is mile after mile of ugly tags on the walls lining the tracks. It adds to an impression of how run down things are, that no-one takes any pride in their surroundings and treats it as some commodity that is theirs to do with as they please.