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Justice is served!
2006-02-23, 6:22 PM #241
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Which is why a lot of russian scientists came over to America, right?[/QUOTE]

was this the case?
2006-02-23, 6:23 PM #242
Originally posted by Freelancer:
No, the system they are in is one that brings out that quality in people. Change the system and you'll change the people. People aren't inherently born greedy. If you were born into a civilization without money and without inequity, you wouldn't be inclined to be greedy or even know what greed is.

Uh...wow...not only has that been proven wrong through...well all communist dictators, but it's stupid. Why else would you cry to show that you wanted to have your diaper changed? You don't need it changed. It just bothers other people. Babies can go a lot longer than they currently do without getting it changed. But they cry because they're uncomfortable, and they WANT to get it changed. If that's not a sign of (early-on, undeveloped) greed, I dunno what is.

And TSM_Bguitar--a lot of soviet scientists sold their services to the US. Mainly because they couldn't get the money in Russia that they could in the US.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 6:24 PM #243
Originally posted by Freelancer:
People aren't inherently born greedy.

Well...we kind of are. Not for money, though. From an evolutionary standpoint, people want to better themselves instead of help others. Or at least not help others at much expense of their own. We are inherently competitive with each other.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2006-02-23, 6:28 PM #244
^^^ What he said too

Humankind might abolish it's need for materialistic greed, but that's many decades/centuries in the future. I can guarantee that humankind is going to abolish what it so aptly practiced for fifty centuries in your lifetime. The Russians try to do that in the 1910s. They thought they could overcome human nature in a drastically short period of time. The VERY NEXT leader of Russia proved that ain't so. Oh and his nation went starving.
Code to the left of him, code to the right of him, code in front of him compil'd and thundered. Programm'd at with shot and $SHELL. Boldly he typed and well. Into the jaws of C. Into the mouth of PERL. Debug'd the 0x258.
2006-02-23, 6:29 PM #245
Well, then I suppose people are born inherently stupid, because they spend so much time scrabbling to the top only to realize money doesn't make them better. The main way to make yourself better is to help others. Realizing this early will make you rich.

And as for Yoshi -- the example is so absurd I do not believe it needs to be refuted.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-02-23, 6:32 PM #246
Originally posted by Freelancer:
Well, then I suppose people are born inherently stupid, because they spend so much time scrabbling to the top only to realize money doesn't make them better. The main way to make yourself better is to help others. Realizing this early will make you rich.

And as for Yoshi -- the example is so absurd I do not believe it needs to be refuted.

Do not tell me that you have never ever once thought of yourself more than others.
Code to the left of him, code to the right of him, code in front of him compil'd and thundered. Programm'd at with shot and $SHELL. Boldly he typed and well. Into the jaws of C. Into the mouth of PERL. Debug'd the 0x258.
2006-02-23, 6:33 PM #247
Originally posted by Freelancer:
Well, then I suppose people are born inherently stupid, because they spend so much time scrabbling to the top only to realize money doesn't make them better. The main way to make yourself better is to help others. Realizing this early will make you rich.


This is probably the only thing I will ever agree with you.
Nothing to see here, move along.
2006-02-23, 6:35 PM #248
To say that people are inherently greedy is just a theory, not fact.

This also goes to the Enlightnement thinkers conflicting views of man being born inherently good vs. inherently evil.
2006-02-23, 6:35 PM #249
Quote:
a lot of soviet scientists sold their services to the US. Mainly because they couldn't get the money in Russia that they could in the US.


I'm not familiar with this
2006-02-23, 6:37 PM #250
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
To say that people are inherently greedy is just a theory, not fact.

Gravity is also "just a theory." I'm not talking about some mere hypothesis, but a theory backed up by over a hundred years of research. But yes, it's certainly difficult to use it in an argument when both sides don't agree on it.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2006-02-23, 6:38 PM #251
Originally posted by Freelancer:
Well, then I suppose people are born inherently stupid, because they spend so much time scrabbling to the top only to realize money doesn't make them better. The main way to make yourself better is to help others. Realizing this early will make you rich.

And as for Yoshi -- the example is so absurd I do not believe it needs to be refuted.

1) I'd rather have 100,000 dollars in a bank account than build 3 houses for poor families. Sorry, I'm greedy. And I still stand to make a lot of money. This is where you realize that your opinion isn't the popular one, and that's why America is still Capitalist--because the public opinion facilitates it.

And Free--that just goes to show not only can you not debate, but you don't have an argument to boot. Thanks for letting me win by default...not the ideal way to do it, but hey, it still goes to show that you are not only standing on nonexistant grounds, but that you refuse to have the dignity to say "I'm wrong" or at least "I'll have to think about what you've said." You think you're so high and mighty, for some odd reason, as you're almost always wrong, or at least way too damn abrasive about your opinions. Yet you think you're right all the time. Have fun with that in wrongland.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 6:38 PM #252
Originally posted by Emon:
Gravity is also "just a theory." I'm not talking about some mere hypothesis, but a theory backed up by over a hundred years of research. But yes, it's certainly difficult to use it in an argument when both sides don't agree on it.


but gravity has much more evidence than people being born inherently greedy or not

(plus einstiens theory of realitivity proved some things about neutons theory of gravity wrong in einstiens eyes)
2006-02-23, 6:39 PM #253
Originally posted by Freelancer:
The main way to make yourself better is to help others. Realizing this early will make you rich.

Get rich by helping people? What ****ty guide to success book have YOU been reading? To get anywhere you need to put yourself first. You can still help others, but chances are you won't get anywhere if you don't take priority over them.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2006-02-23, 6:39 PM #254
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
To say that people are inherently greedy is just a theory, not fact.

This also goes to the Enlightnement thinkers conflicting views of man being born inherently good vs. inherently evil.

Not really. Greed is neither good nor evil, it just IS. Capitalism shows Greed can be used for the good of the whole. People just see Greed as evil because "the bible says so".
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 6:41 PM #255
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
but gravity has much more evidence than people being born inherently greedy or not

(plus einstiens theory of realitivity proved some things about neutons theory of gravity wrong in einstiens eyes)

Not really. If those who were the best didn't fight for the top position to mate with the best females, natural selection wouldn't work. That shows competetiveness and greed right there. I'd say they're both about in the same boat--both have tons of real life examples and are yet to be unproven.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 6:42 PM #256
Originally posted by Freelancer:
The main way to make yourself better is to help others. Realizing this early will make you rich.


ALL ACTIONS are done with self-interest. First lesson in economics. Whether it be psychic benefits or whatever, it's all self-interest. And sometimes, helping those others creates negative externalities (or positive externalities, who knows), but you never know. All actions may have unintended consequences.
"His Will Was Set, And Only Death Would Break It"

"None knows what the new day shall bring him"
2006-02-23, 6:42 PM #257
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
but gravity has much more evidence than people being born inherently greedy or not

Perhaps so, but that doesn't mean being born inherently "greedy" is wrong. It's far more likely that it is true than false.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2006-02-23, 6:44 PM #258
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Not really. If those who were the best didn't fight for the top position to mate with the best females, natural selection wouldn't work. That shows competetiveness and greed right there. I'd say they're both about in the same boat--both have tons of real life examples and are yet to be unproven.[/QUOTE]

But then you have to think about natural selection, its not necessairly greed, but the will for offspring to be good. This is what my bio class is talking about right now, I don't really view it as greed.

on a side note, we have now just gotten to the point where: We started by talking about Freedom of Speech in Austria and have moved to natural selection and how it releates to how humans are inherently greedy or not
2006-02-23, 6:47 PM #259
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
But then you have to think about natural selection, its not necessairly greed, but the will for offspring to be good. This is what my bio class is talking about right now, I don't really view it as greed.

on a side note, we have now just gotten to the point where: We started by talking about Freedom of Speech in Austria and have moved to natural selection and how it releates to how humans are inherently greedy or not

But it IS greed. It's greed that serves a greater purpose. If you don't see it as greed...you're wrong.

It's greed in every sense of the word:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=greed

It's just greed that is created by nature through hormones and whatnot. You could control yourself and go after the more stable, less attractive woman, but guys don't want to do that. They want to go after the hottie who's most likely an IDIOT and wholly unhealthy in a relationship.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 6:47 PM #260
Originally posted by mscbuck:
ALL ACTIONS are done with self-interest. First lesson in economics. Whether it be psychic benefits or whatever, it's all self-interest.


also a theory by... Ayn Rand I believe (maybe im thinking of wrong person here). That EVERYTHING we do is for greed and for ourselves (e.g., if we help someone it is because it allocates some happiness to ourselves, otherwise we wouldn't do it)

This theory does make sense, but at the same time doesn't really seem falsifiable, which could show that it us a flawed theory.



Originally posted by Emon:
Perhaps so, but that doesn't mean being born inherently "greedy" is wrong. It's far more likely that it is true than false.


I didn't argue that it was "wrong" or "right" (which are two relative things anyway) but that perhaps it isn't inheirent
2006-02-23, 6:50 PM #261
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
also a theory by... Ayn Rand I believe (maybe im thinking of wrong person here). That EVERYTHING we do is for greed and for ourselves (e.g., if we help someone it is because it allocates some happiness to ourselves, otherwise we wouldn't do it)

This theory does make sense, but at the same time doesn't really seem falsifiable, which could show that it us a flawed theory.





I didn't argue that it was "wrong" or "right" (which are two relative things anyway) but that perhaps it isn't inheirent

1) Uh...because you can't prove something wrong it's wrong? What?

2) You did with your Enlightenment spiel, and either way you're wrong about it being inherent anyways. Emon, however, was talking about it being wrong not morally but in the...other sense. Words fail me for that specific adjective right now, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 6:53 PM #262
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]1) Uh...because you can't prove something wrong it's wrong? What?

2) You did with your Enlightenment spiel, and either way you're wrong about it being inherent anyways.[/QUOTE]

1) Look up unfalsafiable when arguing something philosophical, its a fallacy. Or take a class and you'll understand.

2) I was using those as an example, not saying that being greedy is "wrong". Personally I don't believe that anything is "wrong" except for the answer to things like multiple choice questions.

edit for addition:
And it is not a fact that man is born greedy. As a matter of fact this is not even accepted as the most likley thing (maybe many capitalists think this to justify capitalism)
2006-02-23, 6:54 PM #263
[QUOTE=Zwier Zak]right but i don't know how to say "ploretariusze" our "burżuje" in english. and these things are esential.[/QUOTE]

That'll be "proletariat" and "bourgeousie."
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2006-02-23, 6:54 PM #264
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
1) Look up unfalsafiable when arguing something philosophical, its a fallacy. Or take a class and you'll understand.

2) I was using those as an example, not saying that being greedy is "wrong". Personally I don't believe that anything is "wrong" except for the answer to things like multiple choice questions.

1) Telling me to look anything up isn't an argument, it's a cop-out. Support your argument, don't make me support it.

2) Read my update please.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 7:14 PM #265
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]1) Telling me to look anything up isn't an argument, it's a cop-out. Support your argument, don't make me support it.

2) Read my update please.[/QUOTE]

1) "Falsifiability is an important concept in the philosophy of science that amounts to the principle that a proposition or theory cannot be considered scientific if it does not admit the possibility of being shown false."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
also important to

2) I still think that you claiming that people are born greedy as fact is incorrect.
2006-02-23, 7:17 PM #266
No more philosophy.
2006-02-23, 7:28 PM #267
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
1) "Falsifiability is an important concept in the philosophy of science that amounts to the principle that a proposition or theory cannot be considered scientific if it does not admit the possibility of being shown false."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
also important to

2) I still think that you claiming that people are born greedy as fact is incorrect.

1) Philosophy doesn't apply to science. That's just another way of saying "If I can't prove it's false, it's false", which in itself is "infalsifiable".

2) You're wrong. Sorry.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 7:31 PM #268
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]1) Philosophy doesn't apply to science. That's just another way of saying "If I can't prove it's false, it's false", which in itself is "infalsifiable".

2) You're wrong. Sorry.[/QUOTE]

1) you're wrong, sorry

2) no, that's not true
2006-02-23, 7:43 PM #269
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
1) you're wrong, sorry

2) no, that's not true

1) No...I'm really not. I would prove it, but I'm sure it's just a matter of reading comprehension as far as that goes.

2) Yes, it's quite true, as it's been proven that, instinctually, humans are greedy. Communism is trying to mold the human mind to a hive-like mind, and it doesn't work because we are not a hive civilization, and aeons of evolution have instilled other thought patterns into us.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 7:46 PM #270
I agree with Yoshi. You take a rattler from a baby, it cries.

However, I think that some aspects that humans have are taught, like racism. (saying this to support the other party too, because not everything is instinct.)

To a baby, it doesn't matter who has the rattle race wise, it wants it back.

(And the basics of communism is a fundamental forming of a hive-like mind, driven by fear of imperfection and the fear of changing from the hive-like mind. A lot of reasons why communism was successful is because they knew how human instincts worked, and exploited them to an advantage.)
2006-02-23, 7:51 PM #271
Originally posted by mscbuck:
ALL ACTIONS are done with self-interest. First lesson in economics. Whether it be psychic benefits or whatever, it's all self-interest. And sometimes, helping those others creates negative externalities (or positive externalities, who knows), but you never know. All actions may have unintended consequences.


Well, what's good for others is probably good for yourself if you're in it for the long haul, so in a roundabout way I agree with you.

I'm reading some philosophers right now talking about how they've devoted their lives to the greater good of mankind, whatever the stakes, meaning no putting energy toward "making a living", etc. Pretty fascinating stuff.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-02-23, 7:52 PM #272
Originally posted by Anovis:
I agree with Yoshi. You take a rattler from a baby, it cries.

However, I think that some aspects that humans have are taught, like racism. (saying this to support the other party too, because not everything is instinct.)

To a baby, it doesn't matter who has the rattle race wise, it wants it back.

(And the basics of communism is a fundamental forming of a hive-like mind, driven by fear of imperfection and the fear of changing from the hive-like mind. A lot of reasons why communism was successful is because they knew how human instincts worked, and exploited them to an advantage.)

Thank you. Exactly my point actually. Maybe you articulated it better than I did, perhaps. Or maybe he'll admit he's wrong if someone else says it. Whatever the case, at this point I think it's obvious he just doesn't want to admit wrongness, so I'm pretty done with this unless someone can bring some freshness to the debate.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 7:53 PM #273
Originally posted by Freelancer:
Well, what's good for others is probably good for yourself if you're in it for the long haul, so in a roundabout way I agree with you.

I'm reading some philosophers right now talking about how they've devoted their lives to the greater good of mankind, whatever the stakes, meaning no putting energy toward "making a living", etc. Pretty fascinating stuff.

Too bad those philosophers rarely, if ever, effect anyone. Also, you've got it backwards. Pouring your money into charities will never get you a dime. Pouring your money into business and then spending some of the excess of your earnings will get you a lot of money, and plenty of self-worth, along with a sustained income for the charity. Trust me, they want the latter much more than the former.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 7:55 PM #274
Originally posted by Freelancer:
GOD-****ING-DAMNIT I DIDN'T ****ING ASK YOU.

Hahaha. Someone needs some sleep. Crankypants. Either way, Buck had to go and asked me to speak for him, so "in a roundabout way" you did. :)
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 7:55 PM #275
I liked Live 8. But Bono is obviously a bad guy because he is greedy and spends money on pants.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2006-02-23, 7:56 PM #276
BTW: Jesus.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-02-23, 7:57 PM #277
I didn't "rip it apart", I pointed out fallacies. It has nothing to do with innocence--it has to do with how correct you are. I don't pick on your statements because they're offensive, only because they're wrong.
D E A T H
2006-02-23, 7:58 PM #278
I said I'm READING some philosphers. That is not a false statement. JESUS CHRIST! you piss me off more than you can possibly imagine
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-02-23, 7:59 PM #279
Um, guys, it's retarded to argue about morality if you don't first define it. If you don't first establish the grounds for right and wrong you might as well be arguing about whether red is better than blue.

Originally posted by Freelancer:
GOD-****ING-DAMNIT I DIDN'T ****ING ASK YOU. But you being you, I knew you'd find some way to rip apart the most innocent statement I've ever ****ing made. :rolleyes:


And if I'm not mistaken, that statement was based on a generalization that probably was influenced by your apparent stereotypical view of the "Big bad capitalist CEO."
2006-02-23, 8:00 PM #280
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Thank you. Exactly my point actually. Maybe you articulated it better than I did, perhaps. Or maybe he'll admit he's wrong if someone else says it. Whatever the case, at this point I think it's obvious he just doesn't want to admit wrongness, so I'm pretty done with this unless someone can bring some freshness to the debate.[/QUOTE]

My goal is to not however prove someone wrong, because if they were I wouldn't care. They'll learn by themselves (which often enough is the hard way, and most of the time is the better way), and sometimes they end up right...in their own way...which wouldn't effect me anyways, because what is right for them probably isn't for me.

Anyways, I don't mind giving my two cents in to a debate. And I just happen to agree with you on this disscussion.

That's right everyone. I agree with the Yosh. What now?

>.>
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