To be fair, Isreal has had it pretty tough. They're just trying to stop the suicide bombings.

To be fair, Isreal's stomping all kinds of ***.

They have serious infrastructure issues to resolve right now, which cannot be compared to ANY country. They just went from a dictatorship straight to democracy, and it's taking time to adjust. They're not whining, things don't happen over night. Actions like this aren't immediate.

And who says they're not willing to die for it? They just die a whole lot faster than the guys with tanks and armor.


Still not listening. Doesn't matter what they joined up for, it only matters what they do while they're joined up. The government owns them--they can tell them to kill themselves, and if they don't, they're traitors to our country and will be killed/jailed anyways. Like I said once, twice, maybe three times before--the government doesn't care why they joined up. It doesn't care what they feel like, it only cares if they can shoot a gun. They're tools to be used, not people, when they're in the military. It's the sad truth. That's right, truth. You're fighting an already failed argument here.

I don't think you understand. It's won't help. Educating people doesn't help. You can't educate people who have been indoctrinated to hate us. Educating does not make pad people go way. It will make them more subtle and effective. And do all that suddenly goes far beyond a few soldiers and a war. We can't even pay for our own expenses. In order to do that we have to separate every kid from it's family at birth and raise and entirely new generation. Suddenly it becomes a lot more than a quick helping hand. Also, the ends don't justify those means. It would be nice if we allowed citizens to form militias to go over and fight for these a good cause they could find. We actually used to do that about a hundred years ago.


And anti-army? What is that supposed to mean? To do all this we'd need a huge army.

And those few soldiers? It's great you'd risk your life for certain people, but that really is their's and the country's decision. They do have the right to not do so.

What the ****? Africans don't hate us...not last I checked. Neither do Somalians. And education DOES help. I honestly don't know what you were thinking with this, nor where you were going, because it's bull****.


...
As in I would never join the army. I figured that much was easy to pick up in the context.


That's not the soldiers' decision at all--it's their government's. And yeah, I know, my beliefs don't extend to the government--that's part of the problem. They should, even if only to a 1/400,000,000th of an extent, but our government has long been autonomous from actually solving issues we as a people want solved.

It's hard for me to comment on this conflict....

On the one hand, I'm an extreme Liberal.

On the other, I'm a Jewish man with Israeli family.

Personally, I want to see Israel wipe the map clean of Palestinians completely. Eradicate the people who without right invaded our land and took over our holy places.

It goes completely against everything I believe, but it's what I feel because it's what I've known my entire life.

Everybody is right though. Israel is not an underdog by any means. However, they are an extremely organized military force, and dealing with dirty, ruthless, and cowardly tactics used by the scum they're up against catches them off guard many a time.

Isolated neutron bombs. Large scale attacks are all that will help end that conflict, and only Israel has the means. They should use it. Damn the innocents. We had to take that mentality with Japan, and Israel should take it now.

Holy hell, people. This thread is about Israel, lebanon, etc. Not africa.

Threads evolve, [c'mon we're doing great in this thread let's not push it,k -JG]

Then maybe, as a Jewish man, you shouldn't be saying things that could be a quote straight from Mein Kampf.

Edit:

Wait wait wait, what?
First off, here's how organized the IDF is: USS Liberty incident.
Secondly, "dirty, ruthless and cowardly tactics"? Because specifically destroying the civilian infrastructure is honorable now? And, God damn it, at least the United States sticks around to rebuild. The only thing the Israelis are going to build in Lebanon is a wall around their new territory.

You are a disgusting and horrible person. That you, in the same post, trumpet the fact that you're Jewish and then seriously talk about how genocide is justified in this situation is quite possibly the most loathesome and vulgar thing I have ever read on this forum.

I am not joking. You are a monster. An honest-to-god monster. Burn in hell. Seriously.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there previously a Palestinian state before the English and French decided to give the land to the jews after WW2?

Uh...situation's a bit different Jon. Just a bit.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Uh...situation's a bit different Jon. Just a bit.[/QUOTE]You're right, it is a bit different. For instance: Instead of talking about killing all of the Jews, he's talking about killing all of the Arabs. And he also wrote it in English instead of writing it in German. And also, it's extremely horrible, short-sighted and profoundly stupid no matter who says it.

Jon, don't you think you could maybe, you know, make a point without getting banned for once? I really appreciate when you do make these points, but I hate to see you banned for weeks at a time, thereby postponing your insights.

By that logic, Native Americans have the right to slaughter us. Or anyone who invaded anyone else.

The only place Jon's insight is appreciated is in the tech forum.

Either way, cheerleading on the internet still isn't a sport Free. Much to your chagrin, I'm sure.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]The only place Jon's insight is appreciated is in the tech forum.

Either way, cheerleading on the internet still isn't a sport Free. Much to your chagrin, I'm sure.[/QUOTE]Off-topic and flamebait. Troll.

"I can feel your hatred. Take your Jedi weapon! Strike them down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete!" (slightly paraphrased)

C'mon man. Please tell me your joking. You were drunk or stoned or on some meds. Damn the innocents? Neutron Bombs? **** not even the most neo-con would go THAT far.

Uh...back to you sir?

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]The only place Jon's insight is appreciated is in the tech forum.

Either way, cheerleading on the internet still isn't a sport Free. Much to your chagrin, I'm sure.[/QUOTE]

I think what he said (Jon) is warranted, in that it was a pretty horrible thing to say. Essentially Yecti is cheering for the genocide of a people. Infact, he outright is:

Well, as a Jewish man I think he probably has quite a unique take on this...so I say we hear him out before castrating him, at least. Maybe he has a good reason, who knows.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Well, as a Jewish man I think he probably has quite a unique take on this...so I say we hear him out before castrating him, at least. Maybe he has a good reason, who knows.[/QUOTE]
No no no. You canNOT have any possible reason for wanting to annihilate a large chunk of a population other than raw hatred. *****slapping Hamas and Hizbollah for being ****tards is one thing. Completely steamrolling over the Palestinian state and launching neutron bombs is another. I'm on the side of eliminating terrorist groups in an effective manner w/o senseless killing.

Yeah, I know. And knowing Yecti, that's the last thing I expected him to say. So, to say the least, I think the man has a reason that we're not privy to. I know Yecti, and so do you--he's not the kind of guy to say something like that.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Yeah, I know. And knowing Yecti, that's the last thing I expected him to say. So, to say the least, I think the man has a reason that we're not privy to. I know Yecti, and so do you--he's not the kind of guy to say something like that.[/QUOTE]You're right, I can think of two very good reasons for publicly stating the desire for slaughtering innocent people via nuclear holocaust:

1.) He's a horrible person.
2.) He's actually a skinhead neo-nazi who wants to make Israelis look as terrible and inhuman as possible.

See? Perfectly reasonable.

All right stop. End of this subject. Yecti still has the chance to explain himself and he should.

EDIT: Oh, whatever. Go on arguing if you care.[/i]

You're completely right Jon. It is disgusting, and it is pure and utter hatred. Do I hate the people as a whole? No. Do I think that there is any other way to remove those among them who do wrong? No.

Your comments about Mein Kampf are also completely correct. There is something to be said for vengence being bred. After being the chosen race to be persecuted throughout time, your people don't necessarily think that they should be nice to everybody else. The whole do unto others thing from the opposite perspective. They (numerous other cultures spawning time from the Ancient Egyptians) have enslaved and attempted to eradicate Jews and Israelites. Makes you want to return the favor.

It's not a feasible way to solve an issue, and would be horrible if it happened. But do I pine for it? Yes. Completely and utterly. Does that make me a monster? Maybe mildly sociopathic, but not a monster. Frankly, I couldn't do it myself, and that maintains my humanity.

I don't necessarily think that slaughtering people is the best way to take care of a conflict. But when the people you're fighting target 80% civilians 20% soldiers, strap bombs on themselves and run into crowded train and bus stations, throw shrapnel grenades into Synagogues hoping to kill worshipers who weren't even involved in the conflict to begin with.. There is a hatred bred into that culture through religion and political activism that should be cleansed.

The difference between wanting to cleanse that people and Nazi Germany wanting to create their Aryian race is through evil and hatred. The Jews didn't do anything to deserve their persecution. They never have.

Here's how Bush says to fix the situation.

Interesting...

I'm in the UK and I was just watching the news and they were showing the wreckage of a paper-making factory that was bombed by the Israeli's... I really can't see how that would give them any kind of advantage

Dammit Freelancer you beat me to it.

I remembered yesterday how Israel pulled everyone out from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank last year. Not just the military, but they made all the Israeli citizens move too. Now it would seem that this action was done in anticipation for what is happening now. Israel says these attacks are in retaliation and to get their two soldiers back and to deter Hezbollah attacks, but I think they anticipated and prepared for it to grow to a much larger scale in order to force the situation to a head, be it all out war or intervention from outside nations.




Side note: true democracy is a rarity in this world. I'm not trying to be technical, but honestly the 'democracy' in the US is only an intricately constructed system that ensures the power remains where it has always been. Not anyone can become president, and not everyone's vote matters. The only thing this representative republic has over a dictatorship is the flexibility that allows it to evolve and hold onto control over the people more efficiently than earlier governments. It's less about self rule and more about better ruling. Is this a bad thing? That depends on your individual set of morals.

The fact remains that modern governments are not democracies, in the truest sense of the word, and that you have to be very careful when throwing the word around. Democractic governments are not the virtuous, philanthropic institutions we would like to believe, and not all democracies are created equal(especially those set up by outside nations).

What's the point of all this talk? It's that in this situation, this war, the fighting is beyond democracy and dictatorship. The hatred originates from the people, not the governments, and that's always been the most difficult to resolve. I don't think the fighting will stop, and I don't think it will remain between Israel and Lebanon. It's come to the point now where all of the middle east and the powers of the world will have to deal with this.




Here's what pisses me off the most. After WWI the allies split up the remnants of the Ottoman Empire and created countries like Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Then after WWII, they designated the area of British controlled Palestine to become Israel. The country was created, and the British pulled out, leaving Israel to fight for themselves.

Because of the US and the USSR's rivalry, Vietnam was separated into north and south. North and South Korea were made simply by looking on a map and choosing the 38th parallel. The chastised Germans came back from WWI, with help from their military industrialization to escape depression and encouragement from a zealous leader, to invade first Poland, and then the majority of Europe. After that there was war in Korea, war in Vietnam, fighting in the Middle East between Israel and it's neighbors, war between Iraq and Iran, war with Iraq in Kuwait, war with Iraq in Iraq. Countless small conflicts scattered across the region, including this most recent one.

Are the allied countries of the world wars and the US and USSR of the cold war to blame for all this fighting? No. This hatred has been around forever. But we certainly are doing nothing to help them, nothing to stop the fighting, and are taking advantage of the situations at all costs to human life. Conflict in the Middle East means the big countries get to exert their power without getting their hands dirty. Enforce policy with no reprocutions. And hey, why not? Besides 9/11, Afghanistan and Iraq, it's not us whose dying is it? Five thousand Americans in exchange for influence over the governments of some 190,000,000 people and over half the world's oil reserves. Seems like a low price to pay to maintain world dominance. Warfare certainly has changed. Why fight when you can have others fight for you? Crule, yet very smart; very efficient.

But it always seems to come back to bite us in the ***. Now we're having to deal with our ****. Terrorism, as has been painfully made clear in recent years, the rising oil prices, and rogue nations like North Korea where atrocities are being committed and the people being controlled beyond reason. The price of trying to rule the world is retaliation and war, a price that is too often paid by innocent bystanders.

Of course, these days no one is truly innocent. No matter who 'wins' this fight, Israel or Hazbollah, neither side is right. Neither are Syria, Iran, Great Britain, nor the US. No matter what we say or do, in this fight, everyone loses.

I think the word "democracy" has evolved in such a way that it's contemporary use never means the form of classical democracy you're thinking of.

That said, "true" or classical democracy is one of the worst forms of government. I don't even need to back up that assertion.

This is a beef many groups can bring up. Gypsies to Africans can bring up their long standing oppression from other groups. There have been many atrocities that one culture brings against another. History is one long string of one group screwing another sans a reach around.

In other words, Jews aren't special in that regard. It's sad what's happened, but if everyone kept fanning old flames the whole world would be engulfed in a firestorm in an instant.



That's a pretty horrible thing to wish. 'Monster' is a relative term though, and it could easily be applied to you in this case. Not like it really matters though. And when you say you "couldn't do it yourself", that's a pretty weak argument for humanity, mainly because you don't have the capability. Hey, I'm human because I can't lift the moon. Same sorta logic. If you had the option, and you passed it up, then you can use it.



The X Group vs Jews conflict is different from the Palestinian vs Israelite conflict, in that the Israelites did something actively to piss others off.

First off, the hatred the Palestinians feel is different from the classical persecution of the Jewish race. Usually, it's because the Jews make a convenient scape goat, they are outsiders, but otherwise mind their own business. In this case, they established their own state on what the Palestinians feel is their own land. It's a completely different animal, in this case because the Israelites actually did an action. Whether it warrants the consequences is a matter of debate, but I'm sure you can see what I'm saying in this regard.

Second, the Israelites have committed atrocities before (http://www.time.com/time/international/1995/951002/middleeast.html) and their current actions don't exactly breed support. The Israelites (who do not represent the entirety of the Jewish people either, mind you) aren't clean like they usually are; their hands are dirty with the blood of innocents as well.

[QUOTE=Jedi Legend]I think the word "democracy" has evolved in such a way that it's contemporary use never means the form of classical democracy you're thinking of.

That said, "true" or classical democracy is one of the worst forms of government. I don't even need to back up that assertion.[/QUOTE]


I know. I don't even know why people think it's so great in the first place

BTW I didn't want to go on the above rant, but I ended up doing it anyway. Most of the stuff is common sense, I just get so I have to vent. I do stand by all that I said though

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]What the ****? Africans don't hate us...not last I checked. Neither do Somalians. And education DOES help. I honestly don't know what you were thinking with this, nor where you were going, because it's bull****.
[/quote]

People hate us because we fool with their country's affairs in such a heavy handed way. The large muslim populations are easily lead by native demigods far quicker that our own western reeducation could help. Education only works to a point. You're forgetting that smart people are often bad too. Also, it will inevitably be treated as indoctrination by most citizens.



The idea of our standing army has always been to protect and serve the US people. They don't join for money because they don't get paid crap. They have to do what we say, but included in that is the assumption that we will be responsible with their lives, and not throw them away like robots at every lost cause we want to help. It's our decision and the American people have every right to abstain for getting their troops into certain situations.

Their not mercs. They get paid very little. They are there to serve their country not for the bills. If their country starts getting them into a bunch of poorly supported and ill executed wars, few are going to join.


Also, would it be too much to ask if you could conduct a civil conversation? Yet again, I've made mistake of thinking you have a conversation with out being a total jerk, and again I've been wrong. People would actually enjoy talking and debating with you if you didn't treat them like crap. It doesn't make you look like a dramatic hero, it makes you look like an angry idiot who forget to take his meds. Is it too much to ask that you treat people with some respect?

What the hell are you rambling on about? That has no impact on helping the people of Rwanda or Somalia. You're talking about completely different countries and situations. Get back to the topic at hand.


1) Yeah, that's called "propaganda". You're still not listening. They're still just machines, tools to be used, whether the American people see it that way or not.
2) Yeah, they do have every right to abstain. That doesn't make the decision to abstain right, nor does it make the people educated for thinking that. If the American people knew, in reality, what was going on in Somalia or Rwanda at the time it was happening, I'm sure 90% of the American people would've been behind helping them.


Hahaha. Those in the military don't get paid an exorbitant amount, true. But you forget they have every necessity and most wants paid for--so all 2 grand they make a month or so can be used on bull****. They get paid extremely well when you take into account their benefits, their family's benefits, the benefits they get for the rest of their life just for being in the service. You may not see them as mercs, but many people join the military because of the awesome pay (which it is awesome pay when you take everything into consideration) and the ability to restart their life. There are those that join because they want to serve their country, but that point is moot--no matter which camp you fall into you're still just a tool to be used. You're not getting this point because you think I'm wrong, and I know you're wrong in that regard and anyone who is much less naive than yourself would be inclined to agree.


I don't care if I treat idiots like crap, for one. I don't try to look like a hero, I don't look like an "angry idiot who forgot to take his meds" (this coming from the kid who has no life, no sense of humor, and no decent insight into anything. No, that's not me, before someone so "hilariously" points that bit out.)

I treat people with respect who deserve that respect. You have never deserved any respect from me, and your unfailing devotion to whatever stupid notion has entered your mind (poet and didn't know it!) has only further made me dislike you more. You maintain that there's some honor or greatness in joining and serving the military, serving our government. There's not. You're just another man hired to do a job, you're not some hero just because you joined the military, and even if you think that you're wrong. You're another tool of the government--just like those that work for the Secret Service, FBI, any government agency--they don't care why you joined, just how capable you are. Get that stupid, naive thought out of your mind.

I was just thinking about how while we're sitting here arguing, people are dying. There's no opinion here. It's just really interesting.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Hahaha. Those in the military don't get paid an exorbitant amount, true. But you forget they have every necessity and most wants paid for--so all 2 grand they make a month or so can be used on bull****. They get paid extremely well when you take into account their benefits, their family's benefits, the benefits they get for the rest of their life just for being in the service. You may not see them as mercs, but many people join the military because of the awesome pay (which it is awesome pay when you take everything into consideration) and the ability to restart their life. There are those that join because they want to serve their country, but that point is moot--no matter which camp you fall into you're still just a tool to be used. You're not getting this point because you think I'm wrong, and I know you're wrong in that regard and anyone who is much less naive than yourself would be inclined to agree.[/QUOTE]
I think the problem is that we don't want to regard our military personnel as mere tools of a government. Yes they are under the orders of the American Government and said government can order them wherever they damn well please and not much they can do. But it sounds rather demeaning of our military folk when you regard them as just tools of the government to be used indescriminantly. Our military is not like a dictator's military. Dictators and totalitarians give two ****s about their military personnel. All they want is their military to is go out and bring the totalitarian more land and power.

The truth sometimes sucks a lot worse than you wish it to.

One could easily look at it the other way around:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

I wonder how many lives would be saved if all the effort that Massassians put into arguing, they instead put toward saving lives. 10? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000?

you're right, when there is war people should just shut up and listen to what the news tells us and not form our own opinion about it and support who we're told to!

Heaven forbid we come to our own conclusions!