I've heard time and time again that one isn't allowed to commit suicide from a christian point of view, and though I've heard a few reasons for this, the main reason that shines through is something along the lines of "God has a plan for us, and that would be altering God's intentions." Now, if this is truly what you believe, may I ask how many of you look both ways before crossing the street? How many of you check to see a gun is loaded and the safety is on when picking it up? Why don't you run more red lights? Use appliances while in the bathtube? It seems like a waste of precautionary acts if your God does indeed have a grand plan for you, don't you think? If you're meant to do something for Him, wouldn't He make sure nothing else would touch you for the time being, at least, until He no longer required your services?

What if God intends to use your life as an example to others as why you shouldn't use electrical appliances in the bath, etc.?

Well, then wouldn't it be your duty as a christian to aid that in happening?

What if it's God's plan that you burn in hell.

what i dont understand is....


if gods plan includes murderers, serial rapists, thieves, paedophiles and drug dealers... people he obviously wants to put in hell.... then surely, some people are destined for suicide, its all in gods plan.

God doesn't exist.

yeah really, if you read my post, if god has a plan for humanty, either he is a total failure, a cop-out or a lazy mother****er.

I'd go with cop-out. Cop-out seems to define christianity. "Oh, I was going to go to church, but I slept in." Right.

The whole "God's plan" deal conflcits with the "Free Will" deal in every sense. It can't be both ways.

Exactly. I'm rather annoyed that such a point gets side-stepped in all of these threads, so I decided to create one to tackle just that.

Going to church doesn't define a christian. All of us were put on this earth for the purpose of living and enjoying our lives, while worshiping the one true Lord and following his commandments. Personally, I enjoy going to church on sundays because I feel great being not only in the presence of God, but hundreds of people who love Him. But that's just me. You don't have to go to church, and I think that anyone who says "you must attend church EVERY sunday, or else!" is being overly legalistic. You can worship him wherever, whenever. That's the beauty of it.

God exists. I know he does, because looking back before I found Him, I see how empty and meaningless my life was. I was trying to manage everything without a basis, without a foundation or cornerstone. God is my rock, and I grow from there. He gives me power and strength, like the core of the Death Star runs power throughout the station. Could it be any more simple?

Mr. Stafford, if you think God is a total failure at a master plan for humanity, you obviously don't see the bigger picture. Life is a test for everyone, and at the end God will judge us with his endless wisdom, power, and love. I honestly don't think that many people will ever do anything worth going to hell for eternity.

$0.02

Funny how you love a guy you've never met, and have no proof is even real.

He exists because before finding "religion" (an excuse that humans make up to give their life "meaning", as if life has to have a meaning other than the advancement of your species) you thought your life was empty? Okay, whatever floats your boat buddy.

God IS a total failure at the master plan for humanity. If he has a plan, there's no free will. If there's no free will, the bible says God cannot exist.

Yay contradictions.

Funny how you denounce a guy you've never met, and have no proof is even fake.

Have you ever considered the possibility that everything we do, including our free will, is all according to a master plan? That what we think is our free choice to decide for ourselves is in fact being influenced by God?

Also, please show me exactly where it says in the Bible that without free will, God cannot exist. I'm no expert on the book as of yet, so I'd like to know.

Wait, God exists on our timeline and doesn't already know everything about what will happen?

I always thought he was all-knowing.

Meaning he already knows exactly when everyone is gonna **** up.

So he made a club for people to subscribe to his ideals, and for everyone else. BOOM . eternity of fire and brimstone.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]God IS a total failure at the master plan for humanity. If he has a plan, there's no free will. If there's no free will, the bible says God cannot exist.

Yay contradictions.[/QUOTE]


God has a "plan", but it is humanity's choice whether to follow his guidance or not. Hence people have free will. Where on Earth is the contradiction?

Also, where in scripture does it ever say that God cannot exist without free will? I'd very much like to know.

Someone may have mentioned this, dunno, but the reason suicide is bad because it's a mortal sin which you can't repent for afterwards. You've killed someone (yourself), and you're dead, so no chance to make up.

And I'm with Delphian about going to church. I'm a confirmed Catholic, but I hate going to church, because I don't see the need for organized religion at all. I'll do what I think is good, and as long as I'm not a douchebag all my life I haven't crossed too many lines.

I have that problem. All the time. And I've stumped *counts* 5 people by asking them about that. 2 of them were teaching my Bible class at the time.

If our thoughts are being influenced by (a) God/god, then they aren't our thoughts.

I don't need to prove he's "fake". I don't denounce him, I just don't believe in him. I just think Christianity is rubbish.


Yeah, that's called a "conspiracy theory". I tend to be more rational than that.


If I'd read the bible, I would. I know it exists--my friend used to be a hardcore Christian and would lecture me on end about the bits and pieces of the bible, and it makes sense. Without free will, how could God judge us? He'd just be judging his own decisions.

But the death was completely consentual. By this logic, Dr. Kevorkian is a serial-murderer.

Then how can you call yourself a Christian? Christ died to save all sinners from hell. If barely anyone could do anything that warranted condemnation, why would Christ have to die for us? Scripture clearly states that Christ is the only way to salvation, and apart from Him all are doomed. Since most people in this world are not "born again" Christians, that leaves a lot of people that have done something worth going to hell for eternity. I can provide you with the scriptures if you wish. It's important that you understand.


Edit: My original question from before still stands. Where is the contradiction?

This is actually a big part that I have a beef with. This boils down to "if you're not in my religion you're going to hell" idea, which is complete bull****.

And like darkjedibob, I am a Catholic as well, but I'm getting confirmed next year (Freshman year).

What I also don't understand is this. God loves everyone, and he weeps when someone turns away from him. Yet, He had no problem creating Earth, knowing fully well that Mankind would turn away from Him and condemn BILLIONS to eternal pain and torment in hell.

BILLIONS. HE CONDEMNED BILLIONS SO THE OTHER HALF COULD JOIN HIM. THAT IS ONE BIG ****ING SACRIFICE!

He supposedly knew from the start that Man would turn away from him. OK, yeah, so the evil is put on earth to tempt us to see if we're willing to perservere and stay truthful to Him. BUT HE SACRIFICES BILLIONS OF LIVES IN THE PROCESS! BILLIONS THAT WERE DESTINED BEFORE BIRTH TO HELL! HE SUPPOSEDLY KNOWS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO EVERYONE, WHERE THEY'LL END UP, so he CONDEMNS BILLIONS to hell forever so that the other half may join Him!

Two christians fighting over stupid and unimportant details which are "the difference" between salvation and damnation? Why I never!

Your logic is faulty.

This is why.

Person A is much more righteous and upstanding than person B.
Person A is not a Christian.
Person B is a Christian.
Person A goes to hell.
Person B goes to heaven.

Fairness isn't an attribute of Christianity I see.

Except that Jesus would die for even one man. Notice I didn't say nobody was going to hell.

Also, Dj Yoshi, I don't believe your friend.

Or not. Being righteous and upstanding is not a qualification for salvation in the Christian faith. Being a repenting believer is. Hence, no faulty logic that I can see.

You believe a whole slew of stupid, fantastical things concerning some great being who manipulates our every move, has pre-ordained our every thought and action, but not that without free will god is void?

Yeah, just a bit fanatical.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Two christians fighting over stupid and unimportant details which are "the difference" between salvation and damnation? Why I never! :v:[/QUOTE]

Who said anyone was fighting?

I'd rather burn in hell than be a follower of a deity who enforces this idea.

Fighting, arguing, semantics, blah blah.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]You believe a whole slew of stupid, fantastical things concerning some great being who manipulates our every move, has pre-ordained our every thought and action, but not that without free will god is void?

Yeah, just a bit fanatical.[/QUOTE]

I merely threw the possibility out there. Take what you will.

Really? You'd rather be condemned then follow a God that doesn't require a strict and semi-perfect life in order to achieve salvation? Wow.

Fixed.

Nobody said perfect life, but saying that being a good person doesn't mean **** is a bit much.

It's not Christian doctrine I have a problem with. I couldn't care less if one is saved by grace or one is saved by works.

My beef is with the fact that your "god" could look a non-Christian in the eye and banish himto hell for doing and believing in what he thinks is right. In other words, your doctrine is fine, but your religion isn't fair.

Okay. I'll admit that that's kind of hard to swallow. However, it has nothing to do with faulty logic or contradictions {as was first stated}.

As for a Biblical answer, God cannot allow sin into heaven. It would be like dripping poison into purified water. Niether can he bend the rules for anyone. I know that's not a very satisfying answer, but that's the answer nonetheless.

Wouldn't allowing a bunch of free-willed beings into heaven be allowing sin to seep in? Evil comes with free-will.

I think that's a mis-perception, Freelancer. My God's love is endless, and I believe he's not going to send anyone to hell if they haven't done something terribly worth eternity in flames and agony. He's more loving than that.

I know, UltimatePotato, you're going to say "how can you call yourself a christian??". Well then, perhaps I'm not a christian by your standards. But I do worship Jesus and love his loving ways

This post (and the other "omgz God's plan = no free will" posts) leads to the answer-question "they are our thoughts if we are God; we have free will if our will is God's will and we are God." So maybe every soul is a part of God, and because God is omniscient whenever He thinks, all of these little pieces think as well, but it's really Him thinking, because we are all cells in His body. (Cookies to whoever can get what book I'm semi-referencing--it's been talked about on Massassi before)

And just for the record, I'm an atheist, but this post is serious.