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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → A question for you christians out there...
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A question for you christians out there...
2006-08-16, 5:32 PM #41
But really:

Does god have a plan for us all?

Or do we have free will?

Make up your minds.

Does God not know whats gonna happen or does he have a place for everyone?

I mean, if free will means a heroin dealer goes to hell, sure, i'll accept it.

But where does this kid selling drugs and burning in hell fit in with gods plan?

Seriously, make up your ****ing minds....
2006-08-16, 5:33 PM #42
Roach, when I was in Sunday School at age 5 or 6 (I can't remember), I asked my teacher what would happen if I kicked someone in heaven. I asked if I would get kicked out or what.

The teacher said something like "But you wouldn't want to kick someone."

:p I've never heard a satisfying answer to the question before.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-08-16, 5:33 PM #43
Originally posted by Delphian:
I know, UltimatePotato, you're going to say "how can you call yourself a christian??". Well then, perhaps I'm not a christian by your standards. But I do worship Jesus.



Then you should also believe the teachings of Jesus as well.
It took a while for you to find me; I was hiding in the lime tree.
2006-08-16, 5:34 PM #44
Originally posted by Delphian:
I think that's a mis-perception, Freelancer. My God's love is endless, and I believe he's not going to send anyone to hell if they haven't done something terribly worth eternity in flames and agony. He's more loving than that.

I know, UltimatePotato, you're going to say "how can you call yourself a christian??". Well then, perhaps I'm not a christian by your standards. But I do worship Jesus and love his loving ways


There you see, a true Christian. finally.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-08-16, 5:35 PM #45
[QUOTE=Mr. Stafford]But really:

{stuff}.[/QUOTE]


I already adressed that. God has a plan for us, but humans have the choice to follow his plan or not. No contradiction.
It took a while for you to find me; I was hiding in the lime tree.
2006-08-16, 5:35 PM #46
[QUOTE=Mr. Stafford]But really:

Does god have a plan for us all?

Or do we have free will?

Make up your minds.

Does God not know whats gonna happen or does he have a place for everyone?

I mean, if free will means a heroin dealer goes to hell, sure, i'll accept it.

But where does this kid selling drugs and burning in hell fit in with gods plan?

Seriously, make up your ****ing minds....[/QUOTE]

I'm assuming you missed my post by the time you made yours, but just to reiterate, God has a plan for us all because it's His plan for Himself, and we have free will because whenever we think it's actually Him thinking. So when He sends the drug-selling kid to hell, he's sending a part of Himself to hell. (So when he sends a bunch of people to Hell it's like cutting off a cancerous mole)


*disclaimer again: I am an atheist blah blah*

edit: I made a diagram
Attachment: 13542/universe.JPG (46,947 bytes)
一个大西瓜
2006-08-16, 5:35 PM #47
Hallowed are the Ori.

Also, Yoshi, stop being an ***. We understand that you don't agree with Christianity. That's fine. But you've posted eight times in this thread already about how believing in a God is irrational and stupid. Yes, we know you have a horrible superiority complex that entitles you to think you're better than everyone else. However, let me paraphrase (badly) from Contact: "Ninety percent of the Earth's population believes in a higher power of some kind. Do you really think that ninety percent of us are suffering from mass delusion?"

Anyways, it's not like a religious debate has ever changed anybody's mind. Seems kind of pointless to me. But whatever. EVOLUTION 4EVA, *****ES.
Stuff
2006-08-16, 5:36 PM #48
Originally posted by Freelancer:
There you see, a true Christian. finally. Here's a bloke I have absolutely no resentment toward.

Not really. 1) You're not British. 2) He absolutely goes against every teaching of Christianity ever. And 3) He doesn't believe in free will.

He's not Christian at all, he just happens to think the same guys lived at one point in time.

Originally posted by kyle90:
Hallowed are the Ori.

Also, Yoshi, stop being an ***. We understand that you don't agree with Christianity. That's fine. But you've posted eight times in this thread already about how believing in a God is irrational and stupid. Yes, we know you have a horrible superiority complex that entitles you to think you're better than everyone else. However, let me paraphrase (badly) from Contact: "Ninety percent of the Earth's population believes in a higher power of some kind. Do you really think that ninety percent of us are suffering from mass delusion?"

Anyways, it's not like a religious debate has ever changed anybody's mind. Seems kind of pointless to me. But whatever. EVOLUTION 4EVA, *****ES.

I'm not being an ***, I'm presenting facts and backing up my statements. You're calling me out on nothing, good job.

But I'm sorry massa, I'll never do it again!
D E A T H
2006-08-16, 5:37 PM #49
Originally posted by Delphian:
I think that's a mis-perception, Freelancer. My God's love is endless, and I believe he's not going to send anyone to hell if they haven't done something terribly worth eternity in flames and agony. He's more loving than that.

Delph wins
$do || ! $do ; try
try: command not found
Ye Olde Galactic Empire Mission Editor (X-wing, TIE, XvT/BoP, XWA)
2006-08-16, 5:39 PM #50
Originally posted by UltimatePotato:
I already adressed that. God has a plan for us, but humans have the choice to follow his plan or not. No contradiction.

That contradicts what everyone around here says. Everyone around here says God knows exactly what's going to happen to each and every one of us in 30 seconds, a minute, and even after that. He knows what's going to happen, therefore we can't have free will since it's already been decided. Hence, BILLIONS ARE CONDEMNED TO HELL WITH NO CHOICE.
I had a blog. It sucked.
2006-08-16, 5:41 PM #51
Yoshi, it's quite possible that some people hold too vehemently to certain things that are said in the Bible without really thinking about whether they make sense. What delph said makes sense, so it is probably far more likely that he is correct, and thus, a true christian.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-08-16, 5:41 PM #52
Originally posted by Zloc_Vergo:
That contradicts what everyone around here says. Everyone around here says God knows exactly what's going to happen to each and every one of us in 30 seconds, a minute, and even after that. He knows what's going to happen, therefore we can't have free will since it's already been decided. Hence, BILLIONS ARE CONDEMNED TO HELL WITH NO CHOICE.


No, I'm saying that God's plan is what he THINKS He (and therefore we) will do, not what he WILL do. But you know how a lot of times we end up not doing what we think we're goin to do.
一个大西瓜
2006-08-16, 5:43 PM #53
Originally posted by Zloc_Vergo:
That contradicts what everyone around here says. Everyone around here says God knows exactly what's going to happen to each and every one of us in 30 seconds, a minute, and even after that. He knows what's going to happen, therefore we can't have free will since it's already been decided. Hence, BILLIONS ARE CONDEMNED TO HELL WITH NO CHOICE.



Or not. God's plan is for all to be saved. People decide to live their lives as they see fit. Regardless of God knowing our hearts and minds, people still make a choice.

Unless I'm the only one here that has to decide between things. In which case, I guess you'd be right.
It took a while for you to find me; I was hiding in the lime tree.
2006-08-16, 5:43 PM #54
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Not really. 1) You're not British. 2) He absolutely goes against every teaching of Christianity ever. And 3) He doesn't believe in free will.

He's not Christian at all, he just happens to think the same guys lived at one point in time.


I'm not being an ***, I'm presenting facts and backing up my statements. You're calling me out on nothing, good job.[/QUOTE]

I'm going against every teaching of Christianity ever? I said that God's love is endless. Jesus taught people to love one another like they love themselves. If I were you, I'd get your "facts" straight.
2006-08-16, 5:44 PM #55
Maybe God created quantum uncertainty. This would have multiple benefits:

a) the future wouldn't be predetermined
b) we could have free will
c) he'd be able to step in at any time and perform miracles without violating any scientific laws
Stuff
2006-08-16, 5:46 PM #56
Originally posted by Freelancer:
Yoshi, it's quite possible that some people hold too vehemently to certain things that are said in the Bible without really thinking about whether they make sense. What delph said makes sense, so it is probably far more likely that he is correct, and thus, a true christian.

No, Christianity is as it's laid out by the bible, not by individuals. Sorry, you're wrong.

Originally posted by Delphian:
I'm going against every teaching of Christianity ever? I said that God's love is endless. Jesus taught people to love one another like they love themselves. If I were you, I'd get your "facts" straight.

Okay, maybe I should dumb this down for you. You're basically saying everyone who says Christianity is based on accepting Jesus into your life or whatever nonsense is wrong. These people include the people who first brought the scripture of Christianity forth, thus in a way "creating" it. You may not be going against EVERY teaching of Christianity, but you're getting pretty damned close.

Oh, another contradiction. God is infallible, but he ****ed up during the Old Testament. Wait, what?
D E A T H
2006-08-16, 5:47 PM #57
Originally posted by Freelancer:
Yoshi, it's quite possible that some people hold too vehemently to certain things that are said in the Bible without really thinking about whether they make sense. What delph said makes sense, so it is probably far more likely that he is correct, and thus, a true christian.



Quite contrary. It makes perfect sense. God cannot lie, and has revealed to us the guidlines of salvation. By believing that God is not a liar you believe the words that he speaks. What Delph says does not make sense, seeing as it does not agree with the Bible and would require God to change his laws and his nature constantly, making his laws worthless anyway.
It took a while for you to find me; I was hiding in the lime tree.
2006-08-16, 5:49 PM #58
Free, an eternity is a long time to grow to want to kick someone in heaven.
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-08-16, 5:49 PM #59
Originally posted by Pommy:
I made a diagram


you got that thing the wrong way round.

I got my eye on that crazy mother****er.
2006-08-16, 5:50 PM #60
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]No, Christianity is as it's laid out by the bible, not by individuals. Sorry, you're wrong.
[/QUOTE]
Does it give you some kind of rush to tell people they're wrong all the time?

I think it's more likely that Christianity is as it's interpreted by those who read the Bible. That's why there's multiple Christian faiths and beliefs.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-08-16, 5:50 PM #61
Hey, I think I somewhat agree with Dj Yoshi on a religious topic. Good stuff.

Trig. homework is calling me, so I'm out. If anyone has any questions or would like an answer supported by scripture, feel free to pm me and I'll be happy to discuss such things with you.
It took a while for you to find me; I was hiding in the lime tree.
2006-08-16, 5:51 PM #62
Originally posted by UltimatePotato:
Quite contrary. It makes perfect sense. God cannot lie, and has revealed to us the guidlines of salvation. By believing that God is not a liar you believe the words that he speaks. What Delph says does not make sense, seeing as it does not agree with the Bible and would require God to change his laws and his nature constantly, making his laws worthless anyway.

Delph makes perfect sense. If you don't believe what he's saying just because you're following the Bible (which was written by MAN, not God) to the letter, then you're not in the right, either.
$do || ! $do ; try
try: command not found
Ye Olde Galactic Empire Mission Editor (X-wing, TIE, XvT/BoP, XWA)
2006-08-16, 5:51 PM #63
Originally posted by Darkjedibob:
Delph makes perfect sense. If you don't believe what he's saying just because you're following the Bible (which was written by MAN, not God) to the letter, then you're not in the right, either.


But the Bible would be written by God if you followed my theory.
一个大西瓜
2006-08-16, 5:52 PM #64
Originally posted by Freelancer:
I think it's more likely that Christianity is as it's interpreted by those who read the Bible. That's why there's multiple Christian faiths and beliefs.

But the differences are very minor indeed (with the exception of Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses), not fundamental, clearly laid out cornerstones of the Christian faith.
It took a while for you to find me; I was hiding in the lime tree.
2006-08-16, 5:52 PM #65
Originally posted by Freelancer:
Does it give you some kind of rush to tell people they're wrong all the time?

I think it's more likely that Christianity is as it's interpreted by those who read the Bible. That's why there's multiple Christian faiths and beliefs.

To an extent you're right. But there's scripture that explicitly states (in the new testament) that your only way of salvation is through Christ. I remember something in John, but not the exact numbering. Needless to say, pick up any church's pamphlet on joining said church and you'll find one or two of said scriptures.
D E A T H
2006-08-16, 5:53 PM #66
Originally posted by Pommy:
But the Bible would be written by God if you followed my theory.

Then why are there multiple Gospels, each with different accounts of the same events?
$do || ! $do ; try
try: command not found
Ye Olde Galactic Empire Mission Editor (X-wing, TIE, XvT/BoP, XWA)
2006-08-16, 5:53 PM #67
Originally posted by Darkjedibob:
Delph makes perfect sense. If you don't believe what he's saying just because you're following the Bible (which was written by MAN, not God) to the letter, then you're not in the right, either.

The bible was written by God through man. Hell, it's our only link that shows there IS a God, how the hell could you question it? In questioning the bible, you question the very foundation of your religion.
D E A T H
2006-08-16, 5:55 PM #68
Originally posted by Darkjedibob:
Delph makes perfect sense. If you don't believe what he's saying just because you're following the Bible (which was written by MAN, not God) to the letter, then you're not in the right, either.


Yea, but if you believed that the Bible is full of manmade errors then there wouldn't be much of a point in believing in any of it, now would there?
Scripture holds that it is the word of God. Even if it was not, the stuff that is in it is consistent.

Seriously. PM me, i'm leaving.
It took a while for you to find me; I was hiding in the lime tree.
2006-08-16, 5:55 PM #69
but wasnt the bible just a means of control back when folks were primitive?

i mean, i bet nobody expected that **** to last this long.
2006-08-16, 5:56 PM #70
So basically, I'm going to sum up the answers I've gotten for the original question:
We don't have free will, because it's God's free-will, and we are a little (sometimes cancerous) piece of him, so no matter what we do, it's God's act and not ours, and yet we are punished for it when God acts sinfully through us...
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-08-16, 5:57 PM #71
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]your only way of salvation is through Christ.[/QUOTE]

This statement doesn't say you have to believe Christ was the son of God. It doesn't say you have to be a Christian. It could be that Christ is merely some intermediary between non-believers and heaven.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-08-16, 5:57 PM #72
No, we definitely have free will. Screw all you who disagree; I like being able to choose my own destiny.
Stuff
2006-08-16, 5:58 PM #73
Kyle90 will never expect the spanish inquisition.
2006-08-16, 5:59 PM #74
Originally posted by Freelancer:
This statement doesn't say you have to believe Christ was the son of God. It doesn't say you have to be a Christian. It could be that Christ is merely some intermediary between non-believers and heaven.

...

No, it says you have to accept Christ as the son of God. And you kinda do have to be Christian. Thus the whole "christian" moniker for the religion.

Hurr.
D E A T H
2006-08-16, 6:00 PM #75
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]The bible was written by God through man. Hell, it's our only link that shows there IS a God, how the hell could you question it? In questioning the bible, you question the very foundation of your religion.[/QUOTE]
Of course I question the Bible. You think every word in there is supposed to be taken literally? I don't see the entire Christian world shutting down on Sunday, or the banning of "unclean" items from stores. There's a couple places in there that contradict itself, in which case that alone proves it was written by man (mainly between the different gospel accounts). You can't take the Bible literally, that's what starts holy wars and motivates these fundamentalist whackjobs.
$do || ! $do ; try
try: command not found
Ye Olde Galactic Empire Mission Editor (X-wing, TIE, XvT/BoP, XWA)
2006-08-16, 6:01 PM #76
So I guess I've made myself a new religion then?

No. The Bible says anyone who believes in Jesus with all their heart shall have everlasting life in heaven. That part I do believe, because it shows God's compassion for his creations. What I don't believe is that God would send one of his cherished creations to a lake of fire for the rest of eternity just because they didn't believe in him. He loves us all equally.
2006-08-16, 6:02 PM #77
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]...

No, it says you have to accept Christ as the son of God. And you kinda do have to be Christian. Thus the whole "christian" moniker for the religion.

Hurr.[/QUOTE]
But that comes back to condemning every non-Christian to hell, which is utter bull****.
$do || ! $do ; try
try: command not found
Ye Olde Galactic Empire Mission Editor (X-wing, TIE, XvT/BoP, XWA)
2006-08-16, 6:02 PM #78
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]...

No, it says you have to accept Christ as the son of God. And you kinda do have to be Christian. Thus the whole "christian" moniker for the religion.

Hurr.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the scripture you gave said none of those things. All it said is we are saved through Christ.

Christ could merely be some intermediary between non-believers and heaven.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2006-08-16, 6:03 PM #79
So...I guess I summed up the answer perfectly if none of you are going to bother showing me where I'm wrong. Therefore, none of you have the choice to be christians, God is simply worshipping himself through you.
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-08-16, 6:03 PM #80
Christ is like a Prior. Except without the fancy stick and the planet-swallowing force-fields.
Stuff
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