I'm only gonna be a Junior next year and I'm taking 7 AP courses . I realize this means nothing, because our areas are probably incredibly different in what they offer, I'm just........well, what the hell am I just doing? Hmm. Just saying that "i'm screwed"

I find myself torn between sides, so I will not make a post concerning my opinions until I read more.

I think redistribution of wealth is to some extent flawed, but I also agree with Evad and Tracer's comments to some degree.


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Saberopus: omfq musical genuis j00 >mozart
Thrawn42689: Mozart = n00b

While I agree with most of your views, oS, I would suggest going to a cheaper school. Sometimes you just have to be thrifty. Instead of going to a "better" school in my area, I just went to a decent, low-priced school (which happens to be $6000 or so a year) and live with my parents. I had enough scholarships to pay for most of my schooling when I first started, then recieved another after the first year from the NSF. After that, school was free. Worse comes to worse, go to community college for a year, take your general electives, and go to the school you want next year.

Ubuu, does that have anything to do with affirmative action? Just curious.

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[This message has been edited. Deal with it.]

Oi vey...there's a thing called a "tax return". It gives you back your money if you're in the lowest tax bracket.

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"Look at me! I'm Tracer! BLAHBLAHBLAH!"

-MBeggar

Nope, has nothing to do with Affirmitve Action. I compete with everyone else. Anyone in this state who has a certain GPA and ACT coming out of high school gets the full tution scholarship.

And like Malus said..oS you choose to go to an expesive school. You live in Michigan..U of M (The school of my dreams...which I got accepted to, but I didnt go cause I couldnt afford it) is one of the top 5 public schools in the nation. Now, should we be feeling sorry for you because of YOUR stupid financial mistakes?

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In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

Interesting points, I think. But yeah, I agree with Osiris. Oh noes, you are deh selfish and dun care about deh otherz!

Reality check captain John Luc Picard. Why are most of these people in the situations they are in? Because of themselves. You got layed off, and are suffering now? Gee, ever hear of a BACK UP PLAN? Maybe savings, possibly you know, some sort of plan incase god forbid, something happens. Have kids you can't support? Too bad, there is such a thing as BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS. Drug addict? Drunkard? Whatever, you didn't care enough about yourself, why should anyone else care.

Alpha1, you said to give the schools more money. Aye, might as well throw it into the abyss.

What alot of people are, are "enablers". Your pity actually hurts people more than they help. You enable people to be irresponsble. You enable people to not think. You enable lazyness and sloth.

America has thousands of sucess stories of people who came with a nickel in their pocket and made an empire with it, and they weren't even raised here.

This "Throw money at the problem and it will go away" mentality is a bit short sighted.

I'm not against taxes, but jeesus, I'm all against welfare and other forms of nonsense. It just breeds lazy, insolent fools.

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

I'm really suprised when I see seemingly intelligent people overlooking the epidemic known as government waste. I think it's about time many of you do your homework. Open up your favorite browser, head over to your favorite search engine, do a search for "government waste," and become enlightened.

I agree with Ric_Olie that we should have the ability to choose what programs our taxes go to. A certain portion of our taxes should go to programs that are vital, but if you don't want to help NASA reach Mars, and you don't want to pay for public transporation when you never use it, you shouldn't have to. I'm sure we're all for helping others, but a line must be drawn, and the government seems incapable of doing it in the proper manner.

Could you folks be so kind as to stop the bickering? It really fills the thread with tons of useless knowledge and quite frankly many of us don't have the time to sift through your insignificant rhetoric. It's just plain ridiculous to verbally attack people who have a different ideological view.



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www.MentatMM.com (status = down :/)
Napalm Death Squad (status = alpha)

Holy ****.

While it's obvious enough that there's people leeching off of welfare, the vast majority actually need it. I mean, good grief, a 'back-up plan'? How the hell are you supposed to do that?

Evad is a perfect example of someone who, through no fault of his own, found himself laid off. He's not stupid - he graduated from university and went on to work in a high-tech industry. But then his company up and left for another country. Exactly how is he to blame?

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"Look at me! I'm Tracer! BLAHBLAHBLAH!"

-MBeggar

[This message has been edited by Tracer (edited June 29, 2004).]

Of course, because, as we all know, finding a full time job is as easy as one two three, regardless of your age and experience. You don't need education - after all, the job you'll find with a high school diploma will be more than enough to pay rent, food, and support your wife and kids without any kind of financial aid. All you gotta do is make an effort! People who are poor as just that way because they're lazy and they like to leech off the tax dollars of good hard working americans like you!


Get your head out of your *** for f***'s sake.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

....right. Even if you work for years and try to save as much as you can, good luck living on it for any extended amount of time if you have kids and a mortgage. Or is that covered by Plan C?

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

or at least wear a damn condom next time...

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The University of North Carolina has finally found a network server that, although missing for four years, hasn't missed a packet in all that time. Try as they might, university administrators couldn't find the server. Working with Novell Inc., IT workers tracked it down by meticulously following cable until they literally ran into a wall. The server had been mistakenly sealed behind drywall by maintenance workers.

[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited June 29, 2004).]

oS, I feel for you, and have two suggestions.

1) Try a cheaper school! I know plenty of national merit scholars who can go to one of about 100 good schools completely free.

2) Try some loans. With your credentials that won't be a problem at ALL.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

Wow. I can't eally believe some of the crap you're spewing at this point, oS. To say you recieve no benefit from the governement has got to be the biggest loads of crap that I've heard in some time. Just because you don't see any of the benefits right in front of your face doesn't mean you aren't benefitting from them. Just becaue you've never called the cops doesn't mean they aren't doing anything that helps you out, like keeping that criminal they arrested from mugging you next week.

Grow up and stop ****ing whining. There are billions of people in this world who would love to be in your position with a job making a little bit of money. There are millions upon million of people in this world who have it far worse than you do and don't ***** about it.

There are plenty of other options out there that you aren't even considering that would make things easier, but at this point, why should I even bother to mention them?

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Plan C as I recall was make more money. Regaurdless, if you really want to look at it, who picked that unstable, hard to find job? It's not like anyone forced you to be, for example, an Aerospace engineer. If the defense industry goes belly up and you loose your job, it's a consquence.

In the end, everyone is at least somewhat responsible. Then again, there are always exceptions to the rule. I'm sure for every person who had a plan B and got screwed, there are 30 who lived paycheck to paycheck.

Can we get numbers on any of these things though? Lots of hearsay back and forth.

Look, there are counter examples, but god damn, there is alot of abuse. If there was a better system that truly didn't let the kitchen sink go through the drain, less people would ***** about it. I have personal examples. My cousin gets welfare, yet he drives an Eclass mercedes and lives in a house that is worth over a million. Why? Beats me.

I don't know Evad's case. But for arguments sake, taking an unstable job is a gamble. You may get alot of pay, but it goes with the territory you get laid off. It's like you are a cop and you get shot. It's not likely but it's an accepted risk.

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

Where did the no education part come in?

Besides, if you can't afford a wife and kids... well, don't have them.

And who mentioned anyone that was poor, and said it was their fault?

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

Creative bookkeeping?

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If you can read this, you need better glasses.

I wish I was as creative, I'll tell ya that.

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

It's not complacency. You should realize you live in a country with 230,000,000 other people.
Take a look at the anual defense budget. Do you think that should be privatized. Actually most of it is and that's why it's so high.

Anyway, since you don't seem to even know where the city gets it's money and since the city provides you with the means to get clean water, police, firemen, the infrastructure to get cable, internet, telephone... it's like talking to a whining child. "Why? Why? Why?", is all I'd get out of you.
No one wants to pay taxes, including me. But you have to realize that a country doesn't run itself. Go out and vote. Make sure you vote for little to no taxes. Go to your local, state and federal governments and make your voice heard. And if they don't listen, yell it at them. Change only comes when you yell.

Do some research. Learn about how you get the internet to your home and find out who has to get paid in order for you to come here and *****. From the FCC (a publicly funded organization) to your ISP ( a privately run organization), it cost millions of dollars just for you to beak off about something you know nothing about.

Come back when you have a clue and we can discuss it further. In the meantime vote for change. I personally vote for lower taxes. Make sure you do.

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Pissed off?

If you're complaining about having to get money to go to University, why not push for having that paid for by taxes?

Society benefits from University graduates, so it makes sense that society should pay for it. Your doctor wouldn't be able to treat you if he didn't go through University.

A few years ago, most Britons didn't have to pay anything at all for University tuition fees. Anyone could go to University, if they had the ability (Oxford and Cambridge are a little different).

Now, Universities are being allowed to charge variable tuition fees, which will certainly create a two-tier system, a class divide. Many people I talk to don't want to go University now simply because of the cost.

I don't know how scholarships work for you, but here they're basically that companies pay for you to go through University and you have to work for that company when you come out.
That seems horribly limiting.
What if you gained a much better degree than you expected and you are way overqualified for that job?
What if you want to continue to do a masters or a doctorate but can't because the scholarship doesn't allow for that?

The old system sure seems a lot better.


Privatising is not a good thing.

Privatisation has pretty much destroyed the British rail system, when it worked perfectly well when it was nationalised.

There's an amusing news story about Britain buying trains from Germany, and Germany had to actually damage their railway lines, drill holes in them and bash them up and put little plastic leaves on the line, to recreate British railways so they could test the trains under British conditions. heh.
Germany's (and also France's, Spain's, Italy's, Holland's, Belgium's, Denmark's, Austria's and Switzerland's) nationalised rail systems are far better than Britain's privatised rail. Perhaps Britain's rail system could be controlled by one of their governments.

The key problem is that companies are out to do one thing: make a profit.
This will either mean charging far more than the service is worth, or trying to cut the cost of running the service.
The latter has caused many many accidents across the country.
The point of hospitals is to treat people. That should not be a business and that should not aim to try to make a profit out of its patients. Helping patients should be the one and only aim. Making a profit only causes a conflict of interest.
The same with schools. All across our school we have advertising, heh. Big banners advertising Coke or McDonalds and I think it's disgusting. I don't think it'll be long before the companies actually start to influence the syllabus, because they'll pay schools to teach a certain thing.
Perhaps schools will start teaching how healthy hamburgers are and how fast food is good for you, through the Burger King text books.
Perhaps schools will stop teaching about renewable sources of energy, through the use of Esso text books.

The Government is answerable to the people, but companies aren't. The more power you give to the Government, the more power you give to the people. But the people have no power over companies.
The problem in America, though, is that the companies have great power over the Government. Britain is heading that way too :/

For every one success story, there are a hundred failures. No-one ever hears about those.

Ever read Max Barry's Jennifer Government? Capitalist domination and extreme privatisation meant that people died because they might not have been with an allied company, especailly with the shooting at the beginning. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen, but it could be what does happen - except at the moment, you pay after / during your treatment.

Anywho, tax may be unfair because there are myriads of ways of gettong out of paying it. The rich do this because they are greedy, and so everyone else suffers with higher taxes. I'm not exactly well off, bbut the tax we pay goes towards everything - more public service instead of arms - and yet we get a lot of service strikes... both teachers and firemen have pittance pay, and that's almost entirely government-funded.

I wonder if America would work better if each state became it's own country? Less to manage, better plans for each other...

Well, this is me knowing little about what I'm talking about. Any irrelevancies are problems with the keyboard, Microsoft, Mozilla or people in general.

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[ Massassiism ] [ Cynicism ] [ Fanaticism ]
This is out of our jurisdiction, Bob. It's not wearing any pants.

The vast majority of America's poor are black.

Is this a coincidence?

It's not really an argument in itself, but it is an interesting point. Are black people lazy? Are black people somehow racially inferior thus leaving them on the bottom rung of society? Are they culturally deprived?

It's an interesting discussion, one that I just thought I'd throw out to all you "poor people are all lazy" people, as I think the point certainly suggests that they are poor because of factors outside of their control.

Every single one of you reading this comes from a comparatively well off, middle class family, I'm pretty certain of that. And it is very hard for middle classes to imagine those far worse off than themselves, those born into poverty, those that have to drop out of school to go into a dead-end job to pay for their family.

sooooooooooo not reading the three pages that have popped up overnight.

Just thought I'd share that I'm currently in the process of trying to get a tax rebate. I earned less than £2000 last year and they still took 22%!! So hopefully I'll get most of that back, but what really pissed me off is that when I spoke to someone about it, they said that because my earnings were below £4000 or thereabouts, I could get a rebate, but the fact that I was a full time student didn't mean anything. If I was to earn £4000 whilst studying (which would be perfectly possible with a full time summer job, and maybe some part time work during term time) then they'd tax me exactly the same as someone doing that amount of work who wasn't also trying to get a degree. That strikes me as disgustingly unfair.

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/end boob rant

Racially inferior? Hardly. Culturally deprived? Most definitely. I went to an elementary school in one of the worst areas of my city and a high school where all of the black kids were bussed to. The vast majority of black students that attended both of these schools frowned upon good grades and considered having them as "acting white". If you folks are truly interested in the subject, you should check out Dinesh D'Souza's "The End of Racism". A great read, and it really goes into depth explaining the problems facing black society in this country.



You assume too much. I for one wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth and was forced to go to work when I was 15 to help my mother pay the bills because my father refused to work after he was laid off during the Clinton administration base closures, and drank all of our money away. I may not live in a downtown slum, but I know what it's like to have people threatening to sell your house out from under your feet, to have your electricity and telephone off almost as much as it's on, and to have a diet that consists mostly of Ramen Noodles and rice. I don't feel like going into anymore detail, but rest assured, there are people on this forum that haven't always been well off. Still, through thick and thin, we were able to avoid having to receive welfare, and that was a conscious decision.

Wow...that's much more than I wanted to type. If this thread keeps growing, I fear I won't be able to keep up. :/




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www.MentatMM.com (status = down :/)
Napalm Death Squad (status = alpha)

While you're at it, why not just have a 0% tax system? If 25%-50% of income is currently being taxed, where exactly is the rest of the money going to come from to pay for the rest?

Let's say there is currently a trillion dollars in tax revenue being spent. And let's say this equates to 35% of the population's income. If suddenly you have a 5% flat tax system, there's only going to be 150ish billion dollars taxed... Governmental spending certainly is wasteful, but it ain't *that* wasteful that you can reclaim 7/8s of it.

Further, a flat tax system way, way favours the rich, who are, incidentally, the people who pay the most tax. So suddenly tax revenue decreases even further.



That's ridiculous. So suddenly the rich don't have to pay for hospitals helping the poor because, hey, they'll be able to afford private health care if they need it. And the only people who will want to shell out to feed the poor and desperate will be the poor and desperate; how much money will they be able to contribute to a government program for their own survival? Oh, that's right; none.

The whole point of these social programs is that they are needed for a functional and decent society. If you start allowing people to opt out then the system fails.

People don't like the rich because they have more than they do. But hello? Who worked hard and made that money instead of sitting on thier butts all day watching the TV or have sex with everybody, so they're single mom's (or dads if custody permits)? So now these people who worked hard at gas stations and the like to pay their way through 4 hard years in collage, are having to give one out one of every two hours they work to to pay for the people who are irrisponsible. Sure some of these people do need some help but the majority are just lazy. All those bums out there could get a job. Just not one they like. They'd have to get up ealry in the morning and work, but hey! at least they wouldn't be leaching of others! Immigrants come here from China, with nothing, and are very hard working and become rich. Or at least middle class. We have very good economy. You can get a job if you realy want to. Just mabye not an easy one. So why not give the rich a break? They don't deserve to have 1/2 thier income taken away. Thier are enough chierities to help out the people who realy need help. Just so you know our family is mid-midle class.

Surprisingly, I agree with Evad. Rare moment.

I pay between $1000 and $2000 in taxes per year, and I don't see a penny of it back in monetary form. Ever. What I do see it back in is the construction to expand the highways, new books for my school, and other public services.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

Hold on there. MentatMM and I both are being misquoted here. I never said you should get to choose where all your money went to. But you should get to choose where a sizable percentage goes. Obviously, a percentage will have to be taken out to support hospitals, schools, roads etc. But if I want most of my money to go to NASA or higher education funding rather than giving people with large SUVs tax breaks, then I should be able to do so.

Yes flat taxes favor the rich more than they do the poor. But you're wrong when you say that 35% of American's income gets taken. For many people that is the case, but there are always some who have good tax attorneys who find all sorts of tax breaks and loopholes for them, such as the SUV tax break I mentioned earlier. If you own a vehicle over 5000 lbs. (I think, I don't remember the number exactly) and can "prove" that you use it for work, then you get a ridiculously large tax break. Thing is, it's not really that difficult to "prove" that you use the vehicle for work. There was an article in our local paper that interviewed several resturant owners, shop owners etc., and they all said they would have gotten a smaller car if it hadn't been for the tax break.

So, taxes are good and vital programs need to be paid for, but the wasteful programs and tax breaks are what upsets most of the people that pay.


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Our very existence is at stake

Yay! I can finally join the snail-racing crew.

-@%

That sounds more like fraud if you ask me. He had to apply for welfare to be getting it, and if oyu have all that you obviously don't need it.



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The University of North Carolina has finally found a network server that, although missing for four years, hasn't missed a packet in all that time. Try as they might, university administrators couldn't find the server. Working with Novell Inc., IT workers tracked it down by meticulously following cable until they literally ran into a wall. The server had been mistakenly sealed behind drywall by maintenance workers.

Why should they, though man. They should morally, but they shouldn't be forced too. Besides if your talking about socilized health care, your talking about hugly innefficient health care, and very poor health care, long waiting lists ect. and only the very very rich can afford to go somewhere to get good health care. Besides if you and some smoker are waiting to be treated for cancer and he gets there first, then you get bumped back and possibly die, even though it's his fault he has cancer. Think emergency room x10 ALL the time.

Ermm.. public healthcare doesn't mean they let people die in the waiting room. If you had cancer and required treatement, you'd still get it. If you get hit by a car, they don't make you wait in the waiting room, they pass you before everyone else.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

That doesn't happen, heh. The Chinese that immigrate to America are probably already quite well off. It's the Chinese that work in the sweatshops in China for the American businesses that serve as the backbone of labour, and they certainly are not socially mobile. They barely earn enough to survive, and that's with several jobs, let alone enough to 'save up'.

Yes, there might be the odd 'success story' of one man that goes from nothing to everything by being in the right place at the right time, but that is certainly not the norm. That is an anomaly. But like I said, you only hear about that anomaly.

Reading maeve's post made me remeber something else: All your tuition is tax deductable too

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Well not always... Just you may have to wait sevral weeks to get treated, or you may need to get checked out to see if you have cancer and by the time you waited it's too late. Plus, you may just be in pain longer.

I'd be happy to only loose 25% of my paycheck. My last paycheck would've been 1029$ if the government didn't think that I only needed 680$.

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When guitars are outlawed, only outlaws will have guitars.

Hey oS, here's a thought.

as the saying goes, "if you don't like something, change it. if you can't change it, change the way you feel about it."


SO GO OUT AND VOTE OR SHUT THE **** UP. kthx.

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What once was...

Furthermore, if you're going to get all your money back, you could have less deduted from your paycheck. You can do that, you know

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

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"Look at me! I'm Tracer! BLAHBLAHBLAH!"

-MBeggar

Ain't freedom grand! Hey, you can do whatever you want whenever you want, but only if you come from a middle/high-class family that can afford it! If you're not from one of those families, it's YOUR FAULT for trying to excercise your freedoms.

Poverty begets poverty, unless something is done by the government to try to help.

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Juztyn
Taking credit for: Canyon Stream, Higher Ground, The Space Between, Death's Dome (mlp3), bits of JKRPG, and the entire Showcase forum, damnit!... Visit SWGalaxies.net for the latest Star Wars: Galaxies information!

That wasn't his point.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

It's exactly the point, if not his.