Is disagreeing with a candidate strongly not a reason to vote for someone else? I'm not against gay people, and I do not appreciate the Republican party creating a union that is only for straight couples without having an alternative for homosexuals where they can at least be recognized by the state and receive the same benefits.



If the WMDs that were the basis for the Iraq are being found, then why did Tony Blair, the strongest of our allies, say 5 days ago that "Iraq's weapons of mass destruction may never be found"? The Bush administration has been focusing on Saddam and his crimes lately, something they did not focus on in their speeches to the United Nations. Creating the WMD myth on what we now know has been largely faulty intelligence (Iraq did not purchase Uranium from Niger, among other things) is the biggest reason that there is so much resentment againt the United States nowadays.



No comment.



This is ridiculous. All Europeans I know (especially Germans) were saddened deeply by the events on September 11th. Not every anti-Bush individual is automatically anti-American.

[This message has been edited by KnobZ (edited July 11, 2004).]

KnobZ, you underestimate the French. It is very popular to hate anything good about America and praise anything bad that happens to America. I'm sure there were a lot of people that were sad about 9/11, but I bet there were also many who did silent little cheers.

------------------
Kieran: The reason I put a link to it is because she is in underwear and I know the admins are touchy on that.
Yecti: Jaiph will touch himself for hours if he so much as smells a woman's underwear

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited July 11, 2004).]

I didn't say anything about the French. The people I know are mostly British, German or Scandinavian.

EDIT: I would also like to add a different point of view. Many German exchange students were being made fun of in the U.S. around the time of the Iraq situation, with some people saying they should just bomb Germany together with Iraq. There are stupid people everywhere.

[This message has been edited by KnobZ (edited July 11, 2004).]

Okay. But he wasn't saying the Germans weren't sad about 9/11. So when you rebutted, I assumed you were talking about France and Germany and using Germans as an example.

------------------
Kieran: The reason I put a link to it is because she is in underwear and I know the admins are touchy on that.
Yecti: Jaiph will touch himself for hours if he so much as smells a woman's underwear

I was assuming he was talking about both countries. In any event, I can't judge the French, but I can say that the Germans are more Pro-American than the vast majority of other people on the planet EDIT: and I highly doubt that there were any (+/- 1) people that cheered in Germany on 911. They are far too fond of American ways, entertainment or otherwise.

[This message has been edited by KnobZ (edited July 11, 2004).]

I agree with this.

Kerry.

Hating America and hating America's actions are two different things. "Love the sinner, hate the sin", not saying that we've "sinned" or anything, but just because France didn't support our invasion of Iraq it doesn't mean that France hates America. Every year they commemorate D-Day, laying wreaths on the graves of fallen American soldiers. They haven't forgotten.

------------------
What once was...

No, surprisingly enough. Blix said "The most important point to make [about Iraq's cooperation on process] is that access has been provided to all sites we have wanted to inspect and with one exception it has been prompt." and "[We] note that access to sites has so far been without problems, including those that had never been declared or inspected, as well as to Presidential sites and private residences." There's more here. Blix was generally happy with Iraq's cooperation, the sole exception being with the show-us-where-the-WMDs-are-damn-you department.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited July 11, 2004).]

Maybe because we dont need bushs stupid texas attitude

------------------
I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is to try to please everyone.- Bill Cosby

.....Now I'm curious on why Saddam wasn't allowing access to that one site.

------------------
Kieran: The reason I put a link to it is because she is in underwear and I know the admins are touchy on that.
Yecti: Jaiph will touch himself for hours if he so much as smells a woman's underwear

I'll pipe in right now, and congratulate all of you for acting in a civil manner, and not starting a flame-war *knock on wood*.....too late, I've lost them. I think this is the first political debate thread where we've actually stayed on topic.

------------------
"His Will Was Set, And Only Death Would Break It"

"None knows what the new day shall bring him"

Did I say after the inspectors came back to Iraq? No. He had refused to cooperate with resolutions throughout the 90's. And what do I have to prove about Iraqs contacts with Al-Quaeda? The 9/11 commission has already proved this. They had ties, they had collaberated. Get over it.

Oh yes... I dont know why I repeat Kerrys flip flopping... Well could it be his 15 stances hes taken on the Iraq war. His "I actually did vote for the 87 billion, before I voted against it." remark? The fact that he changes his political stances to please whatever audience he is adressing? No, I do know why I repeat it, becuase It shows who Kerry really is, a flip-flopping fool.

------------------
ZGPC

I hardly think that is a reason to make your choice. That is stereotipical, and IMHO a very chilidish reason to vote against Bush.

------------------
ZGPC

That is not what I was quoting in the first place. His reason was "Kerry because..." You have issues you disagree with him on, so fine that's your reason. It's a better one that "Kerry because...". As far as I can tell there, there is no reason.

------------------
ZGPC

Back to the point above on someone hearing that some Europeans weren't remorseful over 9/11, I heard that here too.

I think this whole 'get the world's respect back' issue is a trivial one at best. No matter what the US does, it will get looked down upon by a large amount of people due to our capitlistic materialistic structure.

Even if the US became isolationists and pulled troops from everywhere, a large % of the world would get mad at us for not helping with other countries problems when we have so much.

Why this relates to this discussion: I feel Kerry is making a big emphasis on this "get respect back" and that countries will look at pride when they see the US flag again. To me, this isn't as big an issue as he's making it out as the US has never been the most loved place in the world.

I also agree that Kerry keeps stating all these problems with the US but he states very little on how he is actually going to fix it.

Bush 04! \m/

The problem with the incooperation with the resolutions and the Iraqi-Al Qaeda connection is that is was all pre-9/11 and War on Terror. There were no Iraq-Al Qaeda links after 9/11.

------------------
Kieran: The reason I put a link to it is because she is in underwear and I know the admins are touchy on that.
Yecti: Jaiph will touch himself for hours if he so much as smells a woman's underwear

I think the greater portion of America (excluding the obvious states like California and NY) are conservative people who are true to there values and convictions. But the truth is, those people are the ones with opinions you just won't hear in liberal media... as if it's there desperate and feeble attempt to currupt the Americain audience into voting in their favor... and conservate celebrities (save Mel Gibson), generally keep their mouths shut... while the others make asses of themselves. Point being, conservates are out there. And they will vote. In fact, more conservatives will vote than liberals... since most of them think it's in the bag for Kerry.

BTW tho... let's not forget people. Every vote for Nader, or that nifty vase, is a vote for Bush. Vote away!

------------------
"halucid is not really intelligent but is simply a better simulator of human conversation." Googlism

...how easy life would be... if only it came with a consistancy checker.
Fabricator of Neurotic for MLP4

If the vase wins, and someone knocks it over and it breaks, can that person then be convicted of presidential assassination?

------------------
The University of North Carolina has finally found a network server that, although missing for four years, hasn't missed a packet in all that time. Try as they might, university administrators couldn't find the server. Working with Novell Inc., IT workers tracked it down by meticulously following cable until they literally ran into a wall. The server had been mistakenly sealed behind drywall by maintenance workers.

[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited July 11, 2004).]

Ictus: what dirty bomb? Did you READ your own statment?? "Earlier, the US revealed that it had secretly removed more than 1.7 metric tons of radioactive material from Iraq. ", "The remaining sources are not suitable for malevolent purposes," That means that there WAS enough to make a dirty bomb, UNTIL the US came in and REMOVED the matterial, exactly what we said we would do.

I dont know about you, but 1.7 Metric tons sure does sound like enough to make a dirty bomb.

------------------
Im Happy

Another Key note, the war on terror, (which is why we went in anyways, not to stop WMDs, but terrorists that may use them), is going well, so says the 9/11 commission, which as part of there report said that the efforts in Iraq and Afganistan have severly hampered the funding of terrorist organizations such as Al-quada.

------------------
Im Happy

Did Bush ever say that their were? I dont believe so, nor did he say they had worked together on the 9/11 plot.

------------------
ZGPC

[This message has been edited by finity5 (edited July 11, 2004).]

I'd vote for a farm animal if it meant getting Bush out.

------------------
I can't think of anything to put here right now.

Yeah... (control temper, you can do it...) I am soooooooooo sick of the "anyone but Bush attitude. There, that is all.



------------------
ZGPC

Fact is it's there. Get over it.

I'm voting for Kerry because I agree with his stances on Free Trade, education reform (no more tenure), support for AIDS victims in Africa, 'Service for College' plan, and support for Civil Rights for all Americans.

I also believe that he made a great choice for Vice President.

Bush seems like a puppet surrounded by snakes like Dick Cheney and Rumsfield. I feel bad that Rice and Powell's names are being sullied by this Administration. If Powell was the Republican nominee I would vote for him in a heartbeat because he has an excellent grasp on foreign affairs.



------------------
free mp3 ~Jump - Young America

new album Between the Dim and the Dark available now

Thanks for reminding me about getting a Kerry tshirt and button!

------------------
free mp3 ~Jump - Young America

new album Between the Dim and the Dark available now

Well, that kind of takes away from the whole Iraq colloborating with Al-Qaeda bit if Saddam had stopped doing it well before the invasion.

------------------
Kieran: The reason I put a link to it is because she is in underwear and I know the admins are touchy on that.
Yecti: Jaiph will touch himself for hours if he so much as smells a woman's underwear

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited July 11, 2004).]

Yeah, I meant "Did Bush ever say that they had collaberated after 9/11. I guess the way I originally put it makes it sound as if they had never had ties, not what I meant.


------------------
ZGPC

finity: So what was the casus belli? The inspectors are back in the country, doing their job without any complaints, and the US randomly decides to invade based on decade-old violations?

The 9/11 Commission specifically refuted the existance of a collaborative relationship or ties and marginalized the few contacts made in the 90s. Someone's been lying to you. There's hundreds of articles that can set you straight (here, for example). Educate thyself.

Um, do you have any opinions that you haven't been spoon-fed from a post-dated can? Kerry co-sponsored an amendment to the $87 billion bill that would provide funding by temporarily revoking tax cuts for the very rich instead of driving up the already ridiculous deficit, saving everyone money in the end. When the change was voted down, Kerry in his fiscal sanity decided to vote against the bill. You'll have to do better. [Here]

And lose the attitude. You sound like an idiot when you're wrong.

---

Demon, the US recieved unprecedented support and goodwill from other nations after 9/11. Do you remember the piles of flowers outside practically every US embassy in Europe? Bush squandered the best chance the US had in decades to accomplish something meaningful in its international affairs.

---

Cogman: "after mounths and mounths of 'Theres no WMD, this war is pointless' We are finding Dirty Uranium bomb and such"
"That means that there WAS enough to make a dirty bomb, UNTIL the US came in and REMOVED the matteria"

Yeah, you pretty much suck at this lying thing. Anyway, both the UN and US have known about the material for years. The IAEA sealed the facilities to prevent contamination more than a decade ago. Either the US military or looters broke the seals after the invasion (when the facility was left completely unguarded - the nth example of this war as a complete screwup), and material was carried off, most of which has been recovered. Low-grade uranium in a sealed facility that everyone knew about is not a "Dirty Uranium bomb" or a WMD or even illegal. Sorry. (1, 2)

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited July 11, 2004).]

Ok buddy, this was all fine and dandy, but you are starting to bug me, not that you have "proved me wrong" which I wont admit to, but just lay off. I am entitled to say what I want. What attitude are you refering to anyway? I am done with the political debates here, it is not worth my time.


------------------
ZGPC

Alright. I apologize. I meant nothing personal.

This is a disturbing trend, though. I find it hard to believe that so many people get fed up my occasionally abrasive comments precisely when I ask them to support something they're unable to.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited July 11, 2004).]

Yeah, that's pretty dumb. Let's see, that was... OVER 50 FRIGGING YEARS AGO DANGIT!!!

If I could vote, I would vote for Bush -- for the most part (and from what the media tells you, though Channel One news kinda su><ors ), it seems like he is doing a relatively good job. Sure, I really disagree with that BS about allowing the illegal aliens to stay in the US and have jobs for was it 6 years before needing to become citizens. WTF is that? We have enough crap going on as is -- plenty of homeless ppl, lotsa mouths to feed; let's fix our own problems first before we can most effectively help overseas (exceptions include the chemical weapons threat posed by Saddam and the like, though we really should've gotten more evidence of existing weapons before barging our big fat arses in there to find little if anything).

There was one other thing he did that I didn't particularly like (I forgot what it was, but I'm sure it wasn't the Iraqi war -- Saddam's gone, now to quell the peasant uprising ).

Also (I'm almost surprised I didn't ever see this except in religion class ), all Catholics are obligated to oppose Kerry in the election, at least until he changes his pro-choice views. (btw, I am aware massassi is likely swarming with non-catholics, as is America, but this point is just a friendly FYI ).

Bush all the way.

------------------
nytfyre m0d || f33l t3h p0w3r || t3h l0st c0gz || OMF > *

I will vote for Kerry if, and only if, before the election he makes a very public statement that says the American economy is driven by the American people, and there is not one damn thing he, or Bush can do to SIGNIFICANTLY impact it for the better or worse.

However, if he continues with the "BUSH BROKE THE ECONOMY" crap, I will vote for Bush.

------------------
"Guns don't kill people, I kill people."

Here is how I look at it. Bush comes into office, the economy goes kaput. millions of jobs are lost. we are in a 4 trillion dollar defecit is it? He sends us to war when Saddam and Iraq didn't do anything to us, it was obviously Bin Laden. Then there was the Patriot Act. Nuff said.

Kerry was in vietnam, I think since he himself was in war, as president he will be able to make better decisions on war itself.

That's just my view, I know nothing of politice but, this is how I see things.

------------------
I made a thread, that turned into the debate, so I made a second thread, that turned into a debate, then I made a third thread, that caught on fire, burned down, got flamed, crapped on, bashed, then turned into a debate...but the fourth one, the fourth one stayed on topic!

[This message has been edited by SAJN_Master (edited July 12, 2004).]

I have a question about the unit that captured Saddam. Wasn't it that black-ops more-secret-and-elite-than-Delta-Force unit, like the most effective and super-secret and elite unit in the entire world? Yeah, have they been working on Bin Laden at all, or is the US government just ignoring him until he makes another attack?

Ictus: sorry, I was wrong.

Jon: Yah they are still looking for Osama, But the fact of the matter is, He could be anywhere within a 3 country radius, They only caught Sadaam because a family member turned him in, And from what I have read Osama has been completly disowned by his family. Most of his Family resides in the US if I remember right.

------------------
Im Happy

I'm not talking about World War 2, I'm talking about a comment that was made in response to Germany's refusal to support the war in Iraq.

is there

blackouts yet?

Moving this thread back on topic...

Bushizzle, for rizzle my massassizzles. Izzle.

What's the totals now?

------------------
Frightening the very small and very old since 1952.

Buuuuuush.

I'll take him over a career "yes man". A president cannot waffle over issues; it's bad leadership.

------------------
Current Maps | Inclusion | Restless Endeavor

There is a thin line between insanity and stupidity. I am that line.

There's a "black-ops more-secret-and-elite-than-Delta-Force" unit? Since when?



------------------
Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.