[QUOTE=Leviticus 20:13]If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.[/QUOTE]

How brutal.

the bible is best when it tells you about the slaughter of millions and god raising zombie armies.

The Old Testament exemplifies the worst of the human race. The SS had a hard time topping what happened in that book. Anyone who takes it seriously is a terrible human being who does not deserve to live.

A shame the New Testament is all G-rated crap /_\

The Old Testament, now that's a neat action flick at times.

Except for the fact that Leviticus is garbage and Jesus said it didn't apply anymore.

most the jews died so they must be wrong

Yep. Actually just not Leviticus, but all of the old testament in fact.

It's true, and then they went and added Romans 1:26-27 to the NT...

I don't get how anyone could say the OT, or any part, just "doesn't count" anymore.

Did god change his mind? What happened, he said "Whoops, my bad, let's tone this down a bit". How exactly does that work?

God works in mysterious ways.

Dawg.

Pretty much.

It still counts if you're a Jew though.

It's was the same with fornication. Massassi would not last for long in old testament Israel.

that makes god a bit of a **** though, doesnt it?

does he ever admit to being a total wanker or does he just pretend it never happened?

Well, yeah, he realized he was being a butthole, and sent himself (only...not exactly himself) to Earth so we could have our turn to torture him and finally kill him (only...not exactly him). Duh.

Ah, that gave me a good laugh.

It mady me giggle too.

Shibby!

There is an incredible amount of trolling in this thread, but I will do my best to explain this concept.

The old testament law was designed to bring condemnation, revealing the true extent of humanity's depravity. The law was never intended to bring salvation, and it is essentially incapable of doing so. Since the law was essentially impossible to keep in its entirety (the standard set forth in the law is absolute righteousness, which no man is capable of achieving) , people at the time tried to get around it by creating a system of legalism of their own that they were able to keep to some extent. (however, by doing so, they missed the entire point of the law since they were still rebelling against it in their own way)

Jesus came to fulfill the law. By being sinless, He was able to be the perfect sacrifice necessary to bridge the gap between God and humanity. Before that time, people sacrificed animals to cover sin, but those sacrifices really did nothing other than allude to the ultimate sacrifice that God was going to provide for Himself through Jesus.

Of course, god would have known this all in advance since he's supposed to be omnipotent, and wouldn't have put forth such laws.

Which is why the OT is entirely the word of man and not at all the word of god. Even if you do believe in god, you can't seriously believe the OT was ever the word of god, for the reason mentioned above.

You missed my point entirely. For people to be saved they must know why they need salvation. That was the purpose of the law.

Just because people were unfaithful in keeping the law does not nullify God's faithfulness. It only does more to prove mankind's total depravity.

Well of course. You kill God and there is no gap.

(Really though, I don't get the logic behind "Humans killing someone (it doesn't matter it was a deity, just anyone) somehow makes them more like God." I mean, other from the fact that God killed all the time.)

So all the people who were around before Jesus were simply an example to illustrate mankind's total depravity. Yay God!

Also, this stuff about mankind being totally depraved is possibly the most depressing and offensive nonsense I've ever had to endure. Does it not depress you that you have to believe that you can only achieve salvation through some guy who died two thousand years ago? Does it not depress you that you believe we need saving at all, that we are incapable of bettering ourselves as a species?

Man, being Christian must be a completely soul-destroying experience if you believe everything you're supposed to.

That's why Jesus began the tradition of drinking wine during sermons.

The people that put Jesus to death were simply the tools that God used to accomplish the larger task of providing salvation. In this instance, humanity's own depravity played a role in humanity's redemption.

The penalty for sin is death. (both physical and spiritual). Jesus had to die so the penalty could be paid. Without a valid sacrifice, there would be no hope for humanity, and God would have no choice but to condemn everyone who has ever lived to hell. No one else could have paid the penalty because having a sinner die for other sinners would mean nothing. (paying for your own sins only results in your own punishment) Only God himself (through Jesus) would be able to pay the penalty and use that same sacrifice to create an option that others could use.

So...God is a not just a sadist, but a masochist who likes to invent moral codes that require his own (only...not exactly his own) brutal punishment and death?

Here's the fun bit.

The writings in the bible should not dictate government law especially in a society that started for the purpose of religious freedom.

You missed my point entirely. If god knew people wouldn't follow such strict laws, why would he put them down? How can he change his mind about what needs to be done for salvation, and why would he allow people to suffer if he knew they wouldn't follow his rules anyway?

It doesn't matter, there are many other, very clear examples of god being surprised, angry, upset or other such nonsense which doesn't apply to an omnipotent being.

What? He's God. He can do whatever he wants. He could reshape the entire history of the universe to fit his ends in the passing of a thought.

I mean, I understand what you're saying. I used to be Catholic. I just think it's completely ridiculous and is very indicative of human-written drama than anything plausible of a supreme being.

It's better to acknowledge the truth rather than ignore it and receive destruction in the end.

It does not depress me because I've been made new through Jesus Christ. The person that I used to be (I'm sure that everyone remembers) no longer exists but has been replaced with something better.

Upon salvation, a new Christian receives a new incorruptible soul that is no longer sinful but is instead in accordance with God's own nature. We do not become God, but we do inherit part of God's righteousness. The regenerated spirit by nature hates everything that is evil and exists only to do good.

Unfortunately, at that time, a Christian's body is not saved yet. The flesh is something that still resists the new spirit. Each of us has to learn to bring the flesh under submission, and we are capable of doing so because our new spirits are stronger than the flesh. One day, all Christians will receive new incorruptible bodies to match our new incorruptible spirits. The flesh is still capable of sinning, but we are better able to control it and those sins are not counted against us since we are under God's grace.

if God simply chose to ignore sin and save everyone anyway, God would be acting unjustly, which is in direct violation of His own nature. God cannot ignore sin. God can delay punishment, but in the end, justice must be served before any love can be shown.

People often ask how a loving God can send people to Hell. It is easy to look at the situation backwards from a human-centric point of view, but in reality, God had NO RIGHT to show us any mercy, yet he did anyway. Satan got swift and immediate justice for his rebellion against God (eternal condemnation with no hope of redemption) but we got a way back to God. By right, we should have received the same punishment that Satan got, but God chose to show mercy because He had already demonstrated justice.

God knew that Adam would fall, but God allowed it to happen because it would provide an opportunity for the world to see the extent of God's mercy rather than simply demonstrating justice again.

Over all those thousands of years before Christ, God was delaying the punishment of those who had already died so he could take it on Himself instead.

But you can't be sure that your belief is correct.

The idea of deserving infinite suffering for discretions in a finite, very small and insignificant life is absurd to me. I can think of few, if any crimes, which are truly deserving of that, especially since most people would immediately realize their mistake once dead and would be sorry. But what, that's just too late? Aw, you didn't go to church, now you have infinitely horrible suffering for eternity? Even if you have truly seen your mistake?

It's completely ridiculous, which is why they invented purgatory.

Just until everyones laptop batteries ran out.

God is bound by righteousness. If God gave everyone a watered-down law to follow, it would accomplish nothing because people would still be ignorant of the true standard. The 10 commandments was as simplified as God's law could get, and yet people still had a hard time following it. No matter what kind of law God gave the people, they would still fail to keep it.



God's patience has limits. God often tolerated sin in the old testament because the greater plan required him to. (God could just have easily destroyed Adam after he fell and started over, but He didn't) There were instances (such as Sodom) where the sin got so bad that God chose to punish them right then, since their sin had reached its full measure. Even in that situation, God was willing to show mercy on Sodom if even ten righteous people were found in it. Much later, God sent Jonah to Ninevah because much like sodom, their sin was compelling God to destroy them rather than allow it to continue. Unlike sodom, the people of Ninevah repented and God withheld his wrath.

...
You can't be serious. Have you read the Old Testament? God is like an angry child with immense power and no sense of morality.

The scripture verse is taken somewhat out of context. If you look through the OT, about 90% to 95% of law violations are punishable by death. I realize this doesn't help in the argument of "God changing his mind" between the OT and NT, but I am pointing out that they weren't any harder on homosexuality than other things that they didn't see as "right." They didn't exclusively punish homosexuals by death, they punished a hell of a lot by death. Hard as it is to believe, it must have been the norm to them.

I have a question that leads to a strong point, but I need to go through the motions to get to it:

Why am I crippled, Page?

I know what I believe is correct because the changes in my life are easily visible. You can determine the species of a tree by the kind of fruit it produces; it is the same way with people.

Your standard of morality is MUCH different than God's. Man was originally created perfect (in both body and spirit) and was able to exist in harmony with God. After humanity fell to its current condition, our every inclination became evil. Everyone who is of capable mind knows the difference between good and evil, yet people still do evil over the course of their lives. Does that not make us inherently evil?

God's standard is absolute righteousness. If you sin even once, you are no longer absolutely righteous. It's that simple. You can apply any standard of morality you want, but it still doesn't affect how you stand with God.

Once you stand before God, it is too late to repent because you defied God until the point where you have no other alternative. There will come a time where even the staunchest atheist will get down on his knees before God and be forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord, but then it would be too late because he resisted until the truth was right in front of his face. God never chose to intervene in that person's life and that person never worshiped God; rather that person would be forced into submission before being punished.

In his default state, man cannot submit to God. Man hates God and everything He stands for, and the default inclination of humanity is to replace God with themselves or with something else. I know its true because I see it every day.

Wait wait wait, before we get back to what I asked, did you just say you believe in one thing because of another?

"I believe in the invisible pink unicorn because there's a book that says the sky is blue, and if you close your eyes it isn't blue anymore because the IPU said so. Sure enough, the book was right! He must be true."

I can't argue with faith, because it's an unreasonable belief that you choose to believe because you want to. But I can sure as hell call you on believing in thrones and bowing down and drinking jesus' blood because you're a better person now that you've stopped itemizing women and doing drugs.

He murdered countless innocents in the bible. How is that righteous?