Bingo. I think you hit the nail on the head.

They need to smell better too, AMIRITE?

the reason i bring up the fact that i taught inner city kids is because almost every one of them fit the stereotypes that you label as racist. you dont think this is disturbing?

they didnt disrespect me. they disrespected the value of a good education. black people need to raise their kids with better values.

"Rich black people need to stop looking rich? Black people need to make you feel more comfortable?" ... what?

Black people need to raise their kids with better values? I'll show you 20 black parents that instilled the fear of God, high moral expectations, and severe consequences and still ended up with a drug dealer for a son. This isn't an issue of black people perpetuating a culture, that's what I'm trying to explain to you. The culture does not live in a bubble. It is affected by and large by the society's expectations, read: YOUR expectations and generalizations. Yes, a majority of inner city black kids don't respect education. Mostly because there's little a school can teach you about surviving an inner city neighborhood as a young black kid.

There's a difference between abhorring a race (genetic traits) and a culture (values and traditions). All individuals of African descent living in America are not part of an overarching "black culture." To assert so is, in my opinion, an ignorant generalization.

"Thug culture" (for my lack of a better term) spans multiple races. From my albeit limited experience, when I say "thug culture," I refer to that culture that embraces domination, promiscuity, obscenity, substance abuse, and force. It is a culture that embraces what I consider mediocrity and ignorance. This culture encompasses slang, fashion, artistic expression, as well as a variety of behaviors and attitudes of which American society at large is becoming increasingly tolerant because it is an "inevitable" or "irreparable" situation or politically awkward to speak about (see: immediate accusations of racism).

I view "thug culture" in a negative light mainly because I am a member of a different culture. My culture (in my perception) promotes the acquisition of knowledge (to a comparatively greater degree, but still has room for improvement), social responsibility, the role of the family, the sanctity of marriage, observance of laws, consideration for others, and fair dealings/good faith (at least for appearances sake). It is a culture that is analytical, calculating, prudent, and responsible.

I cannot say which is a better culture on which a society ought to be built because I am extremely biased on this issue. But I will restate that I view "thug culture" as pernicious to those involved and those around them (moreso than mine).

Grismath speaks truth.

Culture is gay.

There is so much truth in that statement, sadly. The kids have parents who value education, so they don't grow up valuing education. They then become parents who don't value education. It's a vicious cycle.

Not as gay as you.

bill cosby.

[/INDENT]

Honestly, I'm surprised no one has caught this yet. I attend Coastal Carolina University. UNIVERSITY! KEYWORD. And their are black people in my MARKETING CLASS. Low and behold, they are doing better than me too. I've had black people in all of my core classes, and a couple in my old marine science classes. I haven't seen any in my art classes, but that doesn't mean they aren't taking the class either. I have a good friend of mine who is a black male and a music major. He writes absolutely BEAUTIFUL techno based classical pieces. And he's kick *** in Halo too.

Ragna, you are an utter fool. Black people are most definately in UNIVERSITIES across the nation. Care to meet a few and see how well educated and "un-steteotypical" to your pointing finger they are?

I think he was being sarcastic...

Sounds like someone needs to read W.E.B DeBois

(Not you DK)

I assume you're being sarcastic? I come from a middle aged family but. My parents NEVER bought me a car. They NEVER gave me a dime for college. They've NEVER paid my rent. They've NEVER bought me any furniture for moving out.. etc etc etc.

Am I on the streets? Am I selling drugs?
No.
Just because someone comes from a "wealthier" background, does NOT mean they're given a hand up.

Ragna, I agree 100% with the things you're saying, though I think you're not portraying them very well. I've very little time right now, but I'll go into detail more tonight.

Free, I don't believe he ever said "MOST BLACKS" etc etc. He said "MOST CASES" of whatever are blacks. The distinction:

1) Most blacks are criminals. -or-
2) Most crimes are committed by black people.

The first is a blanket statement (which may or may not be true). The second is a statistically proven fact.

Also, the statistics ragna posted show that blacks are responsible for the most homocides, and the second most rape crimes, in spite being in a *SIGNIFICANTLY* lower population bracket.

-------

More later, I'm already late for work. (I haven't read the entire thread, but I'm going to go back and do so later, cause this is a subject that holds a lot of interest.)

Just because your mother didn't buy you a car doesn't mean you had the same experience as an inner city black kid. Listen to what I mean instead of what I'm saying. Black kids do NOT have equal or fair treatment. Lower income kids, in general, will have an easier time earning respect, money, and peace of mind through illegal activities more so than the system that tells them they're already drug dealers, already rapists, and already thieves. This isn't an issue of right or wrong, but rather the way you identify a problem. Black people themselves, as Gris pointed out, aren't a problem. It's the way the society functions that is the problem.

Well said, Kirby.

Is it me or is society the source of almost all the problems in the world?

<3 bill cosby

What's the only positive thing about them ******s?

HIV.

What's the difference between a pizza and a black man? A pizza can feed a family of four.

Two black guys are standing at the edge of a building, they're the same height, same build, and both wearing similar clothing. Which one falls first?


Who cares?

Interesting how you point out that one of the "****ed up" actvities of black people is sports or some type of athletics. Achieving "pro status" in any kind of sport takes years of hard work, dedication, discipline, and some talent. Now you are saying that black people should forego these activities because "they obsess too much." Someone coming from a poor area, riddled with crime and despair and rising to the occasion can be a rallying figure to clean up said impoverished area. Now you want to take away or lessen the potential of these rallying figures. Now the neighborhood will degenerate further into crime, drugs, and poverty.


Read that again. All crimes are committed black people in this area. Not a single white, hispanic, Asian, Klingon committed any sort of crimes in this area. It was all black people.

Quick to jump on black people aren't you?

Wow, I'm surprised you aren't jumping on Bill Cosby for being a racist as he is *gasp* telling black people to take pride and responsibility in and for themselves and not blame it on the white people! *gasp*

Sounds to me like Booker T.

A lot of black people already do.

He's pointing out a cultural problem and you immediately tell him that he's pointing out a racial problem. Thank you for being part of the massive crowd of self righteous PC idiots who prevent anything from being done about it.

A large percentage of blacks, especially down south, are part of what is called an "underclass". All countries have one or several, though it's doesn't necessarily have to consist of a single race.

The problem really has its roots in the pre-civil rights era. Blacks, especially in the south had been oppressed and ostracized by unfair laws and bad education for decades, so most blacks, at least down south, sort of all fell into a slightly separate society. Unfortunately, after the Civil Rights movement, all of this didn't go away. The two societies were polarized further by the racial tensions of that era, and rabble-rousers took advantage of the black population's ignorance and flared up their justified anger for their own personal advantage.

Fast forward twenty years. On paper, blacks have equal rights, and thanks to affirmative action, even more than equal rights. Unfortunately, the problem is no longer with rights, the problem is with their screwed up, manipulated, and increasingly polarized culture. It is almost impossible to be a success if you live in a black neighborhood down south. You can't get a good education, and all your piers discourage your education. Crime no longer becomes a choice; it's the only option.

People say we just need to give them an education. Well, you could send them to the fanciest private school in town, and it wouldn't do any good. Black kids look down on their peers who try to do well academically, and too few parents care. It's viscous cycle, which obviously doesn't have a great impact on the schools themselves, but that's not so much the real problem. You can offer education all you want, but you have to get them to take it. And believe me, with all that working against it, it's not being taken. To a lesser extent this is also becoming more and more of a problem in all schools, but that's beside the point.

The problem with the black culture, it's that we taught them how to be angry, and that's all that they are. They stay in their ghettos in a spiral of ignorant indignation and regression. That's just how human nature works. If you tell people that their problems are all someone else's fault and all they can't do anything about them, they won't do anything about it.

Americans have been trained to call anyone a racist who tries to help black help themselves. Anything less than telling them how their problems are all everyone else's fault is deemed racist. Sure, they have been really badly treated, but it's their culture that's hurting them now, and unless that is changed the problem won't go away.

The very fact that so many blacks have succeeded is indicative of the fact that it's a cultural problem. As soon as they are removed from the "black underclass culture", they do just as well as anyone else.

The problem that I'm talking about is really most evident down south. Sure you'll see this to some extent in northern states, but unless you've been down south, you don't know what I'm talking about. Some areas of Mississippi look they could just as easily be in a poverty stricken nation in South America.

The real people at fault here, aren't the people who comprise the black underclass. They're all the snotty self-righteous jerks who perpetuate the problem, by calling "racist" every time they see a person try to honestly help blacks help themselves. They aren't just not helping, they are the whole damn problem. They don't really give a crap about blacks.

It isn't a cultural problem just because he wanted to call it one.

It's a problem with his severely skewed views on blacks.

Next thing he'll probably be telling me about how the mexicans cut his grass for really cheap and he enjoyed their company.

People who say things don't help blacks. People who do things do, obie. No ones gonna call you a racist if you take action.

Rob...PC?

Thug culture's not so great, it's true. However, it's worth examining its origins.

Compare Korean immigrants who live in American ghettos--they usually end up getting out and moving up to middle- and upper-class areas after a while. This is because culturally they have a strong emphasis on family, usually starting businesses, living and working together, pooling their money until they can move somewhere else. They're coming from Korea, obviously, where that culture's been deeply ingrained in them.

Most American black people are descended from slaves--and centuries of slavery would tend to tear apart culture, tradition, etc. Once they were freed, they didn't have much less but some new music that everyone liked. And the Christian Church. But they didn't live in a social vacuum--"thug culture" is essentially a caricature of American capitalism, advertising and entertainment. Violence, sex, money are all constantly glorified in Hollywood. So when hip-hop started becoming popular, as it spoke passionately to the youth, there was a certain percentage who did a bit of this thug thing. And this excited suburban youth.

Businessmen, both people from white-collar America and ghetto entrepreneurs like Sean Combs, saw the value in this. The suburban rebel wants to A) listen to and emulate exciting musicians and B) shock and annoy their adult authority figures. The more violent, edgy, and sexual variations of rap were marketed more. And inner-city rappers, who are almost always trying to use rapping to make money rather than purely as a creative outlet, saw which way the winds were blowing and altered their style.

Ten years later this gangsta posturing was all people saw of hip-hop. Gangsta rap was HOT. It was MARKETABLE. You couldn't turn on the TV without seeing black gangsta rappers in Escalades rocking jewelry and scantily-clad women.

This media blitz formed expectations, both in the minds of black youth, and in "respectable whites" like Mr. Ragna here. And that's more or less how we got where we are today.

So is it anyone's fault? Maybe it's the fault of the record execs for pushing music glorifying violence and degrading women simply because it made the most money. Maybe not.

But that there's some history. It didn't create the problems, but it did exacerbate them. Gave nerdy white kids an image of fashion, music, etc. to associate with their fear of black people.

DING DING DING we have a WINNER


PS, most your white boy music has roots in Black music and "culture."

ESPECIALLY ROCK.

Yeah, do is probably a better word, and yes they will, if you do anything that will actually help, like trying to get parents more involved with their kids education or getting the police to actually enforce the law. Not everyone will, but there will be enough to get the people you're trying to help to hate you.



The way other people perceive blacks what's keeping them from succeeding.

Which is the sad part, because the black culture is all but dead in many areas. That's the problem.

People who call PC are a big part of the problem, I'll agree with you Obi. Teachers who see black people at fault for his students not appreciating education are an even bigger part of the culture. Fearful conservative white kids who make the claim that the association of skin tone and violence is the rule are even worse.

Thrawn and Grismath are the understanding and forgiving critics of black culture. Ragna is the prejudice kind of critic. There is a big difference.

Average middle class people of any race don't stand out much. The people of any race who do stand out are generally more extreme.

I don't think ragna is accusing every black person in the US of being a thug. Black people who do act like thugs happen to stand out to him, and he is wondering why their particular subculture developed in the way that it did. If ragna describes a black person who is rude and has no value for education, then he probably isn't talking about the really cool black guy who you are friends with in school.

It seems automatic this day in age to jump down someone's throat as soon as they comment about a seeming characteristic of any single subset of people. But think for a moment: how is that subset of people defined? They are defined by their differences. We seem to have a need to demonstrate how "unracist" we are by immediately condemning those who make any comment implying that people have varying characteristics.

Easing racial tensions will not be achieved by trying to deny that differences exist, though I'm sure fewer differences exist than people think. Easing racial tensions will be accomplished by people being able to talk about differences that they perceive, and by people working to understand that which they are unfamiliar with.

The bottom line: don't be so quick to condemn ragna. How is he supposed to teach children who he doesn't understand?

The question is how is he supposed to teach kids who don't give a rat's *** and whose parents don't give a rats ***.

I don't know. He certainly isn't doing them any good by claiming that it's their skin color's fault.

Wah wah wah

He's not saying it's skin color. At least that's not how I'm interpreting what he's saying. He's saying that it's a cultural issue, or trying to say so. The poor black culture doesn't value education as much as other groups do, which is part of the reason a vast majority of poor African Americans stay in their poor economic status.

Saying that race contributes is dumb, IMHO, but to not recognize the culture that promotes the lack of education is just as dumb.

White culture produces ***** kids who have no experience with the world.

If you make it to age 20 and are still able to say the stuff you have said in this thread with a straight face, you are obligated to kill yourself right now because you can do only bad to my society.

My society. Get the **** out ragna.