I just got back from Church with my family. As a result, I missed a Bag of Crap on woot.

we forgot to go to midnight mass, so we just finished watching the Pope's mass on TV.

We're kind of crap Catholics.

Yeah, I just got back from church too.

Regardless of your beliefs, it's your parents viewpoint on Christmas.

You couldn't do this for one hour, to please your parents?

Self-centered/spoiled (complaining about worthless gifts) comes to my mind

Alleluia! I got back from church not too long ago and despite my feeling nonplussed about it beforehand and kind of distances from religion in general, I left invigorated.

I went. My mom really wanted me to, so I did. All you judgemental people can shove it. >_> And a merry christmas to you too.

"Self-centered/spoiled (complaining about worthless gifts) comes to my mind"

Worthless is the wrong word. Thoughtless is what I don't like. It could be worth a million dollars and still be thoughtless. Like "Oh hey I thought you might like this jetpack(i would like a jetpack however so this example is not good in my case)". >_>

It's not un-selfish to not want to go to church. I'd feel horribly out-of-place on a hajj to Mecca or basic worship at a mosque - it's not a difficult concept.

However, it'd be a nice little action on your part to go with your parents. "Season for giving", and all those niceties. This is assuming, of course, that they appreciate the fact that you're doing it despite being uncomfortable while doing it.

My parents are making me do something I don't want to do
*whine*
/wrists

Well, before I became a Christian (I became one around the age of 17 or 18), my parents had me go to church with my Grandmother every mother's day. Looking back on it, I had no beliefs or anything of the sort towards Christianity. I went to show my grandmother respect and everything. I dunno, Greenboy, maybe that's how you should look at it. Of course, a little tolerance on your parents' end would go a long way too. And I do resent the implication that all Christians (I'm nondenominated, so this is how I class myself) are holy rollers. I've got friends who were Muslim, Jewish, atheist, etc.. They're pretty cool and everything, just got the different beliefs. I don't push my beliefs on them, but if they ask, I explain. I ask questions now and then because of curiosity. Its interesting.

Meh, I'd just make the little bit of a sacrifice frankly.
Although I do find it funny that people are calling him heartless etc. What if he'd converted to another religion? If he were Muslim would it suddenly be okay if he objected? Would his parents be expected to attend mosque with him for Eid? So why must he be expected to sit through church as an atheist? He clearly knows what that particular church is like more than any of us, they may not be like the nice tolerant Christians some of you know.
Christmas is still a holiday for non-believers, it's a good excuse for a celebration when the days are short and the weather ****ty; we just don't feel a need nor want to engage in the religious rituals with it.

You don't see anything ironic about an atheist demanding quality in his celebration of Christmas because your overinflated sense of entitlement extends to celebrating an event from a religion you spend a significant amount of your time whining about. Expressing my true feelings toward you on this subject would involve either being banned or having to equivocate to an unreasonable extent so I will simply suggest that you commit suicide and save us all a lot of effort.

He said "actual irony" which probably means he's being a literary twit.

Yeah, I see why it's funny and coincidental, and I agree that he really shouldn't be whining. Your comment about an atheist complaining about his relative enjoyment on Christmas holds true. It's just not literal irony. I am being a literary twit.

And I think you've got me pinned wrong. I go back and forth on my disdain for religion, but I am hardly entitled with anything about Christmas. I don't bother anyone else about their religion. You're just looking for something to be angry about with this. I'm really not upset about religion at all in this thread.

It isn't that they want a religious Christmas, and this is the point you're missing. If they're an atheist, they don't want the Christian aspect of it to play a role in their day. Granted it has a religious meaning, today's society has made it so that it can be celebrated without any religion at all (as a capitalist holiday at least). So why should an Atheist go to a Christian event? Explain that much to me and maybe I'll see what issue you take up with someone not wanting to go to a religious event.

Plus it isn't the fact that he wants "a good Christmas" but that he is an atheist and wants religion to have no part in his day, that's the point that everyone here is missing.

So why does Christmas exempt your religious (or lack of religious) beliefs from mattering? I don't see why someone who isn't religious should "suck it up" and go to a religious event just because it's important for a certain religion.

It's not because it's important for a certain religion, it's because it's important for certain people, in Greenboy's case, his family. We think he should suck it up because his family wants him to go with them to just a one hour mass on this one holiday, and that is not much to ask of someone you love.

I went to Midnight Mass with my grandmother. I also go to mass with my grandmother whenever I visit her. Yeah I don't really buy everything of Christianity (I've got some beefs with OT and some NT). But the people at my grandmother's parish are great people and I get to spend time with grandma (which right now I want to maximize). Not to mention that the father gives some good stories. He gave a story of how a husband and wife were reunited after the priest bought a blanket with initials on it. The couple was separated in Nazi Germany. I thought that was pretty Although what was really great is that there was a man there who obviously looked like his life had been destroyed by drugs. His hands were the size of grapefruits and he could barely walk. Yet I saw him walk from his pew to the priest for the Eucharist and then back again. Big props to that guy for that and also turning his life around.

So while you are all RARRGH RELIGION EVAL, there can be some good to spending a measily hour at a religious institution that you might have missed while you where all about being somewhere you don't like.

But you're missing the point, his family wants him to attend a religious event that goes against his beliefs, that is not right. Just because it's his family that wants to make him go to an event that preaches things that he doesn't believe in doesn't make it any more acceptable to his beliefs. There's no reason he should have to go, whether it's his family telling him to do it or not.

The intolerance to atheism is quite annoying a prevalent on this forum it seems and it underlies a problem in this country.

He shouldn't have to attend Church, but he shouldn't have to celebrate Christmas and he certainly shouldn't feel entitled to have an enjoyable Christmas just because the actual meaning of the holiday (celebrating the birth of Jesus) has been supplanted by some general feeling of wellbeing and togetherness with obvious commercial tendencies.

But that's not really what I was talking about. It's ironic because Greenboy complained about how this Christmas was the worst Christmas ever, except he's an atheist and an atheist demanding a religious holiday is pretty much the dictionary definition of situational irony. The only people who don't see the irony are the same kind of people who don't see why this sort of demand is wrong, like a vegan demanding that her veggie burgers be an exact textural and flavor imitation of the beef she feels uncomfortable eating. Quod erat demonstrandum, you are a dumbface.

Haha, okay it is situational irony. I guess I didn't think about it too hard and just saw "situation is ironic because an atheist is complaining about a religious holiday" but when you put it "atheist is demanding that a commercialization of a religion stop" it is quite hilariously ironic.

And yeah, his beliefs aren't under siege by attending the event, TSM. He isn't being squelched, attacked, or belittled. He's simply going to be bored because the priest is talking about things he doesn't believe, and some people are going to say "God bless" because it means something to them. The thing I think Greenboy, and yourself are missing is that if someone believes something like Christianity, than the term "God Bless" is a pretty nice thing to have said to you, even if you don't believe in God. If you can get off of your soap box and enjoy the holiday for the same reasons the people in the church are without believing in the whole jesus thing, then it's going to be an awesome time that doesn't hurt your beliefs at all.

Last but not least he's 17 and living in their house. He goes to their church because the people feed him and buy him presents and help him survive. They're not even asking him to believe differently, but just to convenience them and help create a family atmosphere at their religious event. If he can't give his parents that, he's a dumb and selfish son.

You don't want to celebrate the birth of our dear lord and savior? Oh, Grenboy, I am terribly worried for you soul...

I think we need to start a Massassi prayer group, to help the atheists see the light and rejoin God's flock.

Baaaaa.

I think the fact that you choose not to read what people are actually posting, instead projecting some sort of false cause onto other people so you can feel better about yourself, illustrates a far more serious problem in "this" country (I assume by "this country" you mean "this planet" because there are literally no modern social issues you can apply to the United States alone).

Religion serves two primary psychological functions: first, and foremost, it is a background for community-building. The people who attend the same church, or even follow the same religion, share a common bond which helps smooth out social organization. When I have children they are going to attend church every sunday even though I strongly disapprove of organized religion, because I believe forming these peaceful social bonds is critical in a healthy person's development (as opposed to the sort of social organizations that are built up in a school yard, which are roughly on par with a pack of wild dogs).

Second, church is like attending alcoholics' anonymous, only for sin instead of alcohol. Bad people never think they're bad, no matter what they do. Hitler thought he was an awesome guy, and the rest of the members of the National Socialist Party agreed. Nobody knows if Stalin thought poorly of himself, but you can bet he didn't lose any sleep over the millions of people he killed. As you live out your life, it is inevitable that you will, sooner or later, do someone else wrong - and good people are the ones who feel guilt about it. Religion serves to remind bad people what they are, because they do not have their own conscience to remind them.

So why do religious people mistrust atheists? Because, for one, their social structures are strongly rooted in religious activities. Humans instinctively mistrust people who exhibit antisocial tendencies. Secondly, the 'bad' Christians who are only held in check by their weekly sermon simply assume there is no supernatural force keeping that atheist from murdering the people around him, which means he obviously is doing so.

But this intolerance you attribute to "this country" is hardly evident on this forum. If you actually paid attention to threads about religion you'd notice that there has been a major balance shift toward atheism recently, which is why I argue on the opposite side these days. Nobody is intolerant toward atheism here. Even I am not intolerant toward atheism, but what I am intolerant toward is the significant proportion of atheists who are in fact illogical mouth-breathing knuckle-dragging morons who think they're more enlightened than their bible-thumping brethren while neither of them have even a passing comprehension of their own religion or any other.

Religion also gives people of sense of order in the universe, and gives them guidelines on how they should behave and act. I think that's where the draw is- not from the social aspects or the "AA" similarities.

Except you don't need religion for those things, Vinny. Ritual certainly has calming aspects to it, however, as do heirarchical arrangements. People may say they like having the Universe organized for them but it really doesn't affect their lives in any meaningful way. Most people don't think about things like that.

Many of them dislike evolution and universe formation theories, not because they are contrary to an obviously metaphorical alternative theory but because they think it undermines their entire social structure. It's threatening to them on a personal level.

Maybe you don't. But many, many people wonder "Where did we come from?" or "Why are we here?" or "What happens when we die?" Religion answers those questions.

No, there was no reason he should have to go, but there was a reason he should go out of love and favor for his family.

*On a side note*
A lot of you mentioned going to a 1 hour mass. Is that a typical service length in Roman Catholicism? In the church (Presbyterian) I was sent to as a kid 2 hours was the bare minimum if not 3 sometimes. They'd kick us kids out into Sunday school partway through to avoid us getting noisy and fidgety as the sermon went on.

I guess it would depend on the denomination, but all the Christmas services I've been too are pretty quick because there tend to be multiple services on Christmas day, and it' usually pretty packed.

Catholic Masses are usually about an hour

LDS services are 3 hours on sunday, often with further obligations during the week and month.

I guess that is what happens when you have a called lay clergy.

This thread has become pretty awesome.

In response to Jons reasoning for sending kids to church, thats entirely reasonable. I actually know someone (my ex's mother) who tried that. Ended up with her kids coming home one day after sunday school saying that jesus laid colorful eggs on easter and never sent them in again. >_>

I can understand that religion can be a good thing. However, with the christians I know, you HAVE to believe or be very good at lying for them to not bother you constantly. Being in church when you don't believe in god is very very difficult unless its a crap church.

I think it's the other way around. Crappy churches are disrespectful and intolerant.

No, crappy churchs are the ones where they don't care if you're christian as long as you wear fancy enough clothes and put the money in the box.

I think that religions should practice what they believe. Which is why I dislike christianity. A real christian will be against things that I don't find an issue in. Like gay people.

... "a real Christian." You're really misinformed about Christianity, and the multitude of opinions. A good criticism might be "There are so many different beliefs and interpretations of the bible." A bad criticism is "Not all Christians hate gays, which makes them bad Christians."

I define christian as someone who believes in jesus and all that business. And who follows the stuff written in the bible.

Your being a religious hippy. Christianity is not politically correct and never will be. Get over it.

Dude, your definition of a good Christian is warped by the handful you know.

A Christian is one who believes that Christ Jesus is the Messiah as said in the Scriptures. A Christian ALSO believes, practices, and teaches what Christ taught his disciples and that is to show love for mankind and bring about peace

"Crappy Churches" are ones that aspouse that "YOU ARE ALL SINNERS! AND THUS YOU WILL ALL BURN IN HELL ESPECIALLY THOSE GAYS! GOD HAS COMMANDED US TO DESTROY ALL THOSE WHO ARE IMPURE AND WICKED!" They don't point out God's love in Scripture. They don't tell you to look around and see where God might be showing love and to pick up on that. Of all the times, I've been to mass with grandma, I've yet to hear one homily that downplays, discriminates, berates or condemns others. In mass, we offer and pray for peace to others in the congregaton. We pray for others no matter who they are.

I think that you are of the mindset that Christianity is a very intolerant religion and that Christians have marching orders to "smite them gays!" I'm taking you to Holy Spirit Parish in Hemet, CA. I don't think you'll see those types of Christians there.

The light is just as blinding as the darkness.

I don't see those types at the churchs I know around here. But what I meant was that a christian will still be against things like abortion and gay marriage and such. Maybe they won't want the government against it but they still will be personally. You guys are taking what I say out of proportion I think. My best friend is the son of a pastor, I don't hate christians. |:

I hate abortion not for religious reasons. I think it is a horrible practice esp. partial-birth ones.

well, yeah. killing babies is pretty bad regardless of belief set. >_>

what if we adopted the spartan system? kill only the weak babies?