my mother is an ordained minister of the United Methodist Church. She believes gay marriage should be legal and endorsed by the church.

abortion? I thnk its a woman's body and if thats what she wants to do, thats her choice, and i also think that religion is a BIG hunk of crap. Im athist and i think its just a way of easing people that are going to die or that have a loved one that died. Now, im not teling anyone there wrong, you have a right to an opinion and a right to beleive in what you wish to, im not going to attack someone for beleiveing in god or something, so i expect the same kind of respect back. One can disagree, and if you think it will do good ( though it wont ) do yuor whole " you HAVE to love god" thing, but in the end, it comes down to the peson....

Methodists always struck me as low on bull****.

she was also forbidden from having a church because of her being bipolar, and for having chronic migraines.

they're low on bull****, but what bull**** they have they stick to. or something. whatever.

Really?

Why?

I demand scriptural evidence stating that Christians must be universally opposed to abortion and gay marriage anywhere and everywhere.

What's that? Even the Christians who are against abortion and gay marriage can't provide that evidence? What's THAT? There are atheists against these things too? You mean atheists aren't all a bunch of baby-killing butt ****ers? WOW!

I know you have this teenaged angst/rebellion/rage thing going on but it's not half as enlightened as you think it is. Some day you're going to grow up and see the rest of the world for what it is - a massive, diverse place where few people fit into the demographics and stereotypes of those who live within 10 miles of where you were born - and feel like a pretty huge tool about the kind of petty, narrow prejudices you exhibited in your youth.

Basically what I'm saying is that you should grow up, that you aren't special in spite of what your parents told you, you are not special because you are an atheist and atheism isn't more right because it happens to be what you believe. In fact atheism is more empirically correct but you do not understand the reasons for this which makes your belief in atheism just as irrational, but I digress. Accept these facts and you'll be a much happier person. Or, you know, keep raging against the machine. Whatever.

It bothers me a little bit when people make statements about "Christians" because that is a really really ridiculously broad term...

"That's the problem with Europeans..."

Eh, whatever. I don't judge Christians negatively based on the religion. It comes down to the person. I realize that most christians are normal people who aren't all that different. But it still doesn't mean I can get myself to believe in it. Its not a factual thing for me, I just don't see any proof of the stuff in my life. Anyway this argument is silly. Can we at least agree that televangelists suck? >_>

Hah.

I think you're talking about the same churches, here.



Christianity does condemn homosexual acts; however, the Bible says nowhere that you should go around and tell homosexuals that you think they're wrong. Jesus never intevened in sinning unless it risked the harm of another person (the stoning of the woman, for example). He also destroyed a market in the Temple of God, but, well, I'd say that's pretty blasphemous. He preached against practice of sin, but preached with it a message of forgiveness and love.

A "real" Christian can disagree with you on tons of things. It doesn't mean that they're bad people.



I don't think anyone here has asked you to believe in Christianity - those who have said you should have gone with your family to church said so because it would have been a nice thing to do for your family. I doubt anyone here was really concerned about the eternal damnation of your soul.

This made me lol.

Hahaha...

You killed Church.

I have been reading, and for anyone to even say "suck it up and go to church when you're an atheist" isn't quite an acceptable stance. As pointed out before, you wouldn't say the same to a Muslim or a Buddhist about church, so why say it to an Atheist, it's offensive to Atheists to tell them "tough ****"



While Religion does indeed build communities, it isn't necessary to build communities. It's not hard to find communities of atheists who live lives just like religious people (this is a major point that Dawkins argues)



Again, you don't need religion to recognize that you aren't perfect or always behave perfectly.



Again you're assuming that religion is needed for a social and moral foundation which is simply false.



What do you mean hardly evident? People are telling an atheist to "stop crying" about not wanting to go to church. That shows a level of intolerance to the atheists beliefs. Now it isn't as bad as the average of the nation of course, but it is still present, you can see it in this very thread. And if you're going to criticize (while generalizing) atheists for their "illogic" it isn't hard to point out that most religious people engage in far worse reasoning than atheists. Not that the average atheist is highly intelligent or even knows how to make an argument against the existence of God, just that you can easily make the same generalization for Christians as well. (And it's much easier to do)

And what do you mean "atheists... comprehension of their own religion" that doesn't make any sense

I would if they were converts from a Christian family, because that's what this is about. Family wants family member to take part in family event. It really is that simple. You seem to think we're all Christians picking on the one and only Atheist on the forum. The fact is there are many non-Christians on this forum, and we've all been through this situation. When we say, "suck it up, once a year, if even that, is not going to kill you," we're talking from experience.

More it's an atheist who lives with his parents not doing what his parents want on Christmas. R-E-S-P-E-C-T *dances*

Nay, it is showing intolerance to put it in an aggressive way like "suck it up", but considering his parents probably asked him calmly its only respectful for him to go. The only difference is with him being an athiest theres no real way for them to reciprocate thanks to the lack of a church and because of that it seems to cloud people's viewpoints.

They could sit round the fireplace for a family Christmas reading of "The God Delusion".

This.

Going to church isn't just a family event, as it isn't just his family involved. Just because his family wants him to do it doesn't mean that they are right in wanting to make him do it.

I understand the "suck it up" attitude, but it's the wrong attitude to have. An atheist should be able to tell his family that he doesn't want to participate in any church activities and if his family respects his beliefs, they should respect his wishes to refrain from going. It's as simple as that.



It's his parents who aren't respecting his religious "beliefs" (or lack there of). He isn't asking his parents to go to an event that goes against their beliefs, they are the ones asking him to go to an even that is contrary to his. That distinction is pretty easy to see I think.

What exactly is unfair about expecting your atheist son to go to church? They're not asking him to believe, to participate is psalms, or to even pray. They're asking him to come with them to an event that is important to them. It's a respect issue, here. Had they asked him to go against his atheism and believe something he doesn't, you'd have a point. They're NOT asking him to go against his beliefs, they just want him to come with them to church. You can't live in some bubble without religion just because you don't believe in it. For one, that's pretty arrogant, and just as closed minded as Christians you might find. Secondly, a true atheist should have no problem attending a church and respecting his parents need for a family gathering in reference to their holiday. If you're an atheist, it doesn't mean anything to you anyhow.

Exactly. Problems with even attending etc seems more an antithiest viewpoint to me.

What's wrong with it is that you're asking an atheist. You wouldn't ask your son if he converted to Islam most likely as he would be going against his beliefs by going.

And it isn't like it's just some random event, it's explicitly a Christian event that you're asking someone who isn't Christian to go to that has expressed not wanting to go to on religious grounds. So if the person doesn't want to go on the grounds that they're an atheist, then clearly they don't want to go to it because it's a religious event, so what type of parent would force their kid to do that?

As for it being a respect issue, I've already answered to that: that parents in this case aren't respecting their kids' wishes and beliefs and making them do something they're not comfortable with on religious grounds. That is disrespectful. The lack of going isn't forcing the parents to do something they're not comfortable with or go out of their way to do something they don't believe in, but making the kid go is making him go to something he doesn't believe in and would make him uncomfortable. Which of these do you think is more disrespectful? I think the answer should be obvious.

You all are acting like going to church isn't a religious even for some reason.

"They're NOT asking him to go against his beliefs, they just want him to come with them to church."

Notice the end of your sentence: to church

It's a religious place/event they're asking him to come to. What about that do you not understand?

"You can't live in some bubble without religion just because you don't believe in it. "

How is that relevant? Obviously the church will be there whether an atheist goes or not, but why should that mean that an atheist should go to church?

"For one, that's pretty arrogant, and just as closed minded as Christians you might find."

What are you talking about? The atheist in this case simply doesn't want to go, which doesn't interfere with anyone else. How is that more arrogant than asking him to go out of his way to be uncomfortable by going to a religious event that is explicitly opposed to his beliefs?

"a true atheist should have no problem attending a church "

How so?

The problem is with his desire to not attend. He was asked to go and said he didn't want to, and then told that he had to go. This is the simple point that you are all missing it seems. You're acting like he was the one making the big deal out of it instead of his parents.

Your parents have never forced you to do something you didn't want to?

People are saying "Suck it up" in the same way you'd suck it up to go to your sister's ballet recital, assuming you had a sister and she took ballet. Yeah, it would probably be boring as hell, but a good person will go to support his sister.

Also, one can still get value from a Church service without having to believe in God and Jesus in the same way you can get something out of reading the Greek myths or Native American creation tales. You don't believe them, but there's a message to the stories.

Furthermore, he's not being forced to go every week. If he were, it would be a different story.

I'm pretty sure parent's aren't obligated to acquiesce to the beliefs of their children.

That is true, but children aren't obligated to acquiesce to the beliefs of their parents either.

No, but it would be very nice of them to go along if asked one day a year. It's the kind of thing a parent would really like at Christmas.

To an extent, they are, when they're under 18 and living under the roof of their parents. After they've moved out its different.

Yes, as long as the parent understands why the child is doing it. Going along and allowing your parents to believe that you are returning to religion is the worst option.

Personally I think it's rather disappointing if someone believes something and doesn't argue it if challenged. But there's a difference between arguing and being offensive.

But going to church is a different type of thing. In your analogy, you are showing support for your sister, where going to church just because your parents want you to due to it being a religious holiday isn't showing support for them, but for the religious day. Now if it were something like a baptism for someone in your family or something and an atheist were asked to go out and support your family member, then that would be a different story and they should probably go support their family. But this isn't a case of supporting the family itself but what the family believes in (or at least the parents)

Funny enough, I thought Jesus was born april 6th, Oh thats right its stolen from a pagan religion that decided to move it to the 25th to make the end of the fall.

Oh well! I only celebrate it even though I utterly hate the christianity to enjoy all the fancy lights.

Which he still celebrates despite being an atheist.




Your thought process is very narrow and biased because religion is involved. On top of that, you're making assumptions.

I'm a sad degected neo-pagan with the goddess' stick stuck so far up my *** I can't even enjoy free stuff.

This is probably the worse way in the entire world to go about child rearing, just so you know.

Yeah, you have a really narrow view here. Walking into a church doesn't go against any non-Christian belief system. I've been asked by Muslim friends to attend Mosque for certain rituals that they wanted to share with me, knowing I was an atheist.

Is your view so narrow and limited that you would disrespect your family (And you keep reiterating the same broken logic that they're disrespecting you, which they're not because as I've explained entering a church does not go against any kind of belief system I know of), than you're less an atheist, and much more of an idealist. You assume that because of your beliefs, you shouldn't be exposed to any element of other religions, even if you aren't asked to participate. Greenboy doesn't want to go to church out of rebellious anti-theism, not because it offends his morals or religion. Atheism isn't "protective bubblism" it's lack of belief in a God.

Last but not least: He's 17. He's doing whatever his father/mother tells him to do bordering abuse. If you want to go down the path that Religion is abuse, then we're talking in completely different languages, and you'll never understand why sucking it up for an hour and appeasing your parents religious beliefs in order to offer them a nice family Christmas at the expense of a bit of discomfort or boredom is not at all an unreasonable suggestion.

There's always the argument that being made to go to church will result in an uncontrollable urge to shout out "you're full of crap" in the middle of the service. In which case it's probably best to stay at home.

You guys are all oversensitive *******s. I have to put up with my family spouting racist bull**** all day every day.

Guess what--it's your family, ****ing deal.

And that's fine, but that isn't the issue here. I'm not aruging that "if you're an atheist, it is always offensive to go to a church!!" as some of you seem to be implying.

The issue here is that the OP was asked to go to church and declined, then his parents said that he had to. He declined to go, that is his personal choice, so to make him is impeding on his right to deny going. That's what this whole thread is about.