Actually, that is the belief. Many might even call it a fundamental of Christianity: that sin divides man from God, and that no matter how many sins you have commited, Jesus Christ bridges that gap to reconnect you with God. As for the murder example, you might be interested to know that before the apostle Paul become converted, he persecuted Christians and even held the coat of the first Christian martyr.

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"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."

-Albert Einstein

I don't find Homosexuality to be a sin, though. I have a few gay (I am just going to say that, its ALOT easier then Typing out homosexuality, so screw political correctness bull****) friends, they are both good people, and I find nothing wrong with it. This is most likely because I believe that being gay is somewhat genetic and no entirely choice. Thus I don't think someone should be condemned from birth, I don't believe that is God's way.

A lot of the things in the Old Testament are more metaphorical (or something thereof) than anything.

*Woozy* Whoa so much religious discussion, its really nice to talk to people that don't automatically blow up at me when I suggest something out of "normal" Christian thinking.


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Kill Your Idols!

Aha. That's funny because Atheism is not beliving anything. I belive in a god, I belive in religion, I just dont belive in any one religion 100%. I belive in different aspects of different religions. And no girlfriend is going to force me to her church. A person either respects my belives or they can hit the road, because I don't want to be told what I can and can't belive in.

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(>º_º)> ±h³ ѳv³®-£ⁿd¡תּ9 §±ºr¥ <(º_º<) | (>º_º)> תּℓζ ШǿѓЖ§|-Юρ <(º_º<)

i strugle with where the bar is spiritually.

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IMPORTANT NOTICE PLEASE READ

Employees dying on the job are faling to fall down. THIS PRACTICE MUST STOP as it becmes impossible to distinguish between death and the natural movement of he staf.

Any employee found dead in an upright position will be dropped from the payroll.

(I haven't bothered to read the rest of this as I hate religous discussions.)

I find Atheist to be such a harsh word... I prefer "Non-Affiliated" more.

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Put me in the hospital for nerves and then they had to commit me,
You told them all I was crazy,
They cut off my legs now I'm an amputee, God damn you.
============
Frogblast the Vent-Core!

Well, get your own name then, I'm pretty fond of atheist.

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WOOSH|-----@%

I like that much better too



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ZGPC

To whoever said many Christians probably don't believe what they say they do:
You're quite probably right. Some survey on Catholics (notice I am referring to a specific denomination -- happens to be mine) said only about 5 percent of all Catholics truly believe EVERYTHING.

I doubt I'm one of them -- I see nothing wrong with swearing (generalization -- it's kinda complicated so I'll keep it simple), and I do swear -- though I'm good at restraining it in front of people who don't condone it or would find fault in it, mostly teachers, parents/adults, and (especially female) acquaintances (sp?). And you're not allowed to say anything degrading about anyone -- including YOURSELF; uh, yeah -- second commandment 2/3 down the drain (using God's name irreverantly is the other 1/3)


Speaking of commandments, to comment on Bill's post concerning how the 10 Commandments were thrown away and replaced with the commandment to love, not really true -- the commandment to love encompasses all the other commandments; by following that one commandment, you can't possibly break the other ones. Jesus came and elaborated on them -- told us what they were meant to mean; and now they are the "Golden Rule" broken down and explain what that one commandment is (another difficult area to explain). Not saying you're wrong or dissing, etc -- just saying what the RC'c believe.

Oh, and as far as I'm concerned, ppl can believe whatever they darn well please. Just don't force it upon me and we're cool

[edit] Separated paragraphs for easier reading.

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nytfyre m0d || f33l t3h p0w3r || t3h l0st c0gz || OMF > *

[This message has been edited by Darth Slaw (edited August 19, 2004).]

I'm an orphan, a lost soul floating in a sea of ideas. I don't really belong anywhere. Saint Benedict Joseph Labre, pray for me.

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Well, just because we don't think it's wrong, doesn't mean it isn't. If you only take the parts of the bible that you like, and ignore the parts you don't, it kinda defeats the purpose of it. But the truth (and I use that term lightly, as not all of you will accept this as "truth", and I understand) is we're all condemned at birth, due to our sins and humanity's sins in general. That's kind of the point of the ten commandments; They show us our sins. The commandments are like... God's laws. We break the law, and we spend a life sentence in jail (aka, go to hell). But none of us, no matter how hard we try, can follow any single one of his commandments without fault. So that means we all deserve our punishment in Hell. But God of course doesn't want that to happen, which is why he had an ace up his sleeve (metaphorically speaking, I don't mean to imply that God "cheats" ), that being Jesus. Christ, who was both God and man, died in our place, to save us. So instead of all five hundred billion zillion whatever of us dying and going to Hell, Christ did it in our place. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, so that those who believe in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." But God, being perfect beyond human comprehention, is also perfectly Just. He can't just force this gift on everyone; they have to accept it for themselves. "I stand at the door and knock. He who opens his door, I will come into his house and dine with him, and he with me." Pretty much, the gift is there. It's your job to accept or reject it.

Er... Yeah. I'm done babbling about my beliefs now. To sum up the above; We're all going to hell, regardless of our sexual preference. But if you accept God's gift of Christ's sacrifice, you're saved and will go to heaven. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you can't get to heaven, it just means that it's one more sin.


And now I'm really done. And please note, this is what I believe, from what I understand of the Bible. I am in no way trying to force my beliefs on any of you, nor do I expect you to believe the same as myself. I'm just simply saying what I think I understand of the Bible. Translation: Don't flame me for believing something different.

[Edit: Changed "none of us cannot" to "none of us can". Made an error that ended up screweing up the point I was trying to make ]

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Moo.

[This message has been edited by A_Big_Fat_CoW (edited August 20, 2004).]

"Non-Affiliated" doesn't really grasp the not believing in God thing though, at least to me.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

I don't know how to answer the poll.

I am a member of a congregation (Evangelic-Lutheran), so officially I'm a Christian. Unofficially, I don't believe in God and I in a way don't believe in anything paranormal. I believe that there might well be things people now perceive as paranormal that will sometime in the future be recognized as scientific facts, within the laws of nature, just like discovering electricity and gravity, for instance.

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If you can read this, you need better glasses.

Seb said it best for me. While I'm here I'll live as well as I can, and see what happens when I die.

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"This hole is octogo. Ogiganeel. It's Octa.. It's got eight sides."
"Sam and Max Hit the Road-sign. The one saying 'Stop'."

I was raised as a Christian, but no one ever offered me any real reason to believe. Being the fanboy that I am, I'm really into the 'Collective Unconscious' idea that Tool based Lateralus on.

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<A HREF="http://www.dreamtheater.net/disco_dreamtheater.php?s=sfam" TARGET=_blank> "Our deeds have traveled far,
What we have been is what we are."</A>

"Non-Affiliated" Thats rocks! No offence, but that is hillarious! I think I'll start calling all athiests "Non-Affiliated"!

I agree with just about all of the above. I believe that that a homosexual can still go to Heaven, if they believe in God, and that Jesus Christ died on the cross for out sins. I still don't really like calling it a sin though, because like I said above, based on facts that I have heard, homosexuality is a genetic thing, as in, from birth (or before that) they are gay, its not a choice they make later on in life. To me, its like telling someone that was born with a bad physical disease that its a sin, and telling them that they will burn in Hell (I have seen this happen before, to a gay person) if they don't change, when they can't.

Its just a simple preference, like some guys like brunettes, some guys like blondes, some guys like guys, it should play no role whatsoever in the mix of religion and belief.

And as CoW said, just my opinions, thoughts, and beliefs. You may not rebroadcast or redistribute this post without the expressed written consent of BurrBoy.

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Kill Your Idols!

Officially, I'm Church of England, because of my upbringing and the school system, partially. In reality, I'm pretty atheistic. I find it more comfortable that there's no higher power over me.

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Wise men say that fools rush in where angels fear to tread, so look before you leap, so to speak, because the grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill.

Do you eat shellfish, meat that comes from an animal without rudiment or hooved feet, and do you eat milk with that?

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

He's not a jew your dufus. Don't make arguments you know nothing about. In the NT God gave us permission to eat any thing. I am so sick of morons making that stupid argument.

Ok, so I'll play nice and not react to that.

*uses all mental strength...*

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

*wonders why we spent all of yesterday and half of today on this forum argueing pointlessly*

I'm not gonna argue with you anymore - because it's like smacking my head against a brick wall, and I can't be bothered losing my temper and getting banned. We're always going to disagree, but the point in question is you calling stat a moron. Uncalled for.

I'm off to the pub.

Laters

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

What about all the other Laws? God tells Christians to forget about any Law that doesn't further the fundamentalist, intolerant mindset?

Anyway, calling me a dufus follows neither the Laws of God nor the Laws of Massassi.

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Me too. It sure is hard to tell someone that I'm a Christian and they ask "What denomination are you>" and have to say that I'm just a Christian because I don't belong to a denomination.

BTW, not to stary a debate here, but we non-denomination Christian do NOT refer to ourselves are "religious" because our faith is not a religion. It's a misconception that many people of other faiths tend to have about us. What I think makes us not religous is that unlike other faiths, we do not practice works to attain salvation because Jesus already attain our salvation at Calvery. All we have to do to have salvation is to accept Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. Simple as that. Also, we have no rituals either. Some may consider water baptism and communion as such but they aren't because that aren't required for salvation although highly recommended to take at least once in your life as a way declaring your faith in God outwardly.

Ok, I think that is about all I can say on that. I'm sure all the heathens are foaming at the mouth right now so I'll be on my way.

-- SavageX

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"...and if you don't like that, then you need to be slugged in the face repeatedly, until my hands are soaked in blood. Have a nice day!"
http://geocities.com/savagex378

I agree with the above.

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/fluffle

But you see, We're all sinners by birth. I was born just as bad (if not, worse) than any homosexual out there. None of us can help but sin, so saying that something isn't a sin because someone was born that way, IMO, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I fully understand where you're coming from (I thought the same thing for a good while), and like I said I'm not trying to force you to believe what I believe, I'm just offering my views on it. But I, for example, can't help but be a greedy, lustful person (That sounds really stupid, but hopefully you understand what I mean). But does that make it any less of a sin? Alcoholics can't help but drink alcohol, but does that mean getting plastered isn't a sin? Honestly, I'm not God, so I don't know how he sees these things. But I'm just basing my beliefs off of what I know of the Bible.


As a general note, I consider myself a "non-denominational" christian, as well. Meaning that, I believe in the Bible and what it teaches. Nothing more, nothing less. I have, however, started going to a Lutheran church, as Lutherans appear to have the same beliefs I do; By Word alone. So I guess you could call me a "Lutheran" simply because my beliefs are the same as theirs. *shrug*


And to stat; I'm confused as to what you're talking about. Could you explain in a bit more detail?

I would also like to point out at this time, I do not by any means consider myself "TEH UBER1337 MASTAR CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR DEWD". There is much about the Bible that I don't know, and even more of it that I don't understand. Hell, I just started going back to church in recent years, and just finished my first year of Confirmation (about to start with my second year within the next few months). I'm only saying what I know, and I don't pretend to know everything.

(Translation: In parts, I might not know what I'm talking about. There's a lot I don't know.)

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Moo.

In the five years that I’ve been here, I’ve never once shared my religious beliefs. But right now I’m bored and have nothing better to do, so here goes.

Before reading any further, please understand that these are simply my beliefs. I am in no way trying to present any of this as fact, nor I am trying to belittle anyone of different beliefs. I respect all of your opinions, so please extend the same courtesy to me.

I am a Christian. I believe the God created the universe and mankind, then sent his son to Earth to die for humanity’s sins. I believe that, as foretold throughout the Bible, the Christ will return again, which I think will happen during my lifetime.

Like Burrboy, I am an old-earth creationist. Yes, I belief wholeheartedly that God created the universe, but I think it’s preposterous to believe that the universe is only several thousand years old. I believe the story of creation as told in Genesis – however, anyone who reads it immediately understands that it couldn’t be any more broad. “God created the heavens and the earth” – well gee, that’s specific, isn't it? It doesn’t say how. And it doesn’t matter. The point is, God created the world, regardless of the means, or the time period involved. I do not believe the universe was created in 6 periods of 24 hours. I think that a “day” in the creation could have easily been millions or billions of years. God exists outside of time, so I really don’t believe a billion of our years is really any longer than one year, from his perspective.

Then comes the idea of evolution. Now, I was raised (at home and through Catholic schooling) to believe that evolution was false. I was raised to believe that Charles Darwin was evil and anti-God. Gradually, however, I began to believe otherwise. It has always irritated me how everyone seems to think that evolution and creation HAVE to conflict. I hate hearing my fellow Christians talk about how “God created us, we didn’t evolve!!”. Well, what about both? People seem to think that evolution and spontaneous generation are the same thing. I don’t. I don’t believe in spontaneous generation, no matter what the conditions on the primordial earth were like. I believe that God masterfully crafted DNA, and through his divine power, gave life to the first cell. I think that evolution was his invention, his idea, all along. After all, he created the universe and the laws of physics that govern it. Why not sit back and watch as your own beautiful creation functions perfectly on its own? The Bible doesn’t talk about evolution. As I mentioned, it simply says “God made this, God made that”. It doesn’t say how. So I don’t see what’s wrong with believing that God created his plants and animals using evolution. The theory of spontaneous generation is what truly conflicts with the story of Creation, not evolution. Last time I checked, the theory of evolution doesn’t rely on the assumption that God doesn’t exist. It “simply” states that living things evolve over time. I believe that God created that first living thing. Both evolution and creation can go hand-in-hand, but it seems like few people believe it.

As for swearing: I think that using the Lord’s name in vain (such as part of a swear word, or yelling something like “Christ!” as an exclamation) is wrong, as well as cursing someone in a non-joking way (“oh, go to hell, you little..”). But I don’t believe that “casual” swearing is wrong. Crude, perhaps, but not morally wrong. God didn’t create every word of every language, then list certain words as “forbidden”. Languages evolve and change over time. Most English swear words evolved from other words, or where made up completely. Say I hit my thumb with a hammer and yell the s-word, or make a comment like “I lit the fuse and ran like hell”. I don’t think that God really cares. They’re emphasis words. They may shock people or make you sound like a moron, but they’re just a part of the language.

Most non-Christians I know think that we are a religion bent on pointing out everybody’s sins, condemning people to hell, and trying to convert people. I known Christians like that, and they bug me. Well, I’m not like that. I don’t feel that it is my mission in life to convert people. Yes, I feel that Christianity is the “right” religion, but I don’t try to shove that in other peoples’ faces. I think the religion is one’s own personal business, and I respect the beliefs (or lack thereof) of jews, muslims, hindus, atheists, etc. I have no idea what the afterlife is like. I don’t think I will be in the same place as those people from other religions. I want to spend eternity with Jesus, but on the same note, I don’t think that he is going to punish people of other religions by making them spend eternity with him, when they don’t want to. I really don’t know whether those said people will “burn” or live in torment. But even if I did, I wouldn’t feel compelled to pester them about it. To sum it up, I have my beliefs, you have yours – I won’t try to convert you, and you don’t try to convert me. If somebody asks me what I believe, however, I am happy to share it with them. If there is a person who knows nothing about religion and is curious, I see nothing wrong with me sharing the good news of Jesus to them. I will not, however, start bothering an atheist or muslim about how “wrong” they are, and try to get them to see things from my point of view through Bible quoting and sheer annoyance.

My favorite book of the Bible is Revelation. I believe that the events in it will come to pass – some metaphorically, of course – in my life, probably in the coming decade. No, this doesn’t mean that I’m a raving lunatic who wanders the streets wearing a “THE END IS NEAR” sandwich board, nor do I build multiple, pointless geocities websites with a mushroom-cloud tile background that features articles such as “we’re all going to die” and “how to pack for the rapture”. I simply believe that current world events are heading in the direction of the end-times.

Well, that’s pretty much all I can think of, for now. Now I'm off to find something to eat.

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[This message has been edited by Katt (edited August 20, 2004).]

Exactly. I believe everyone is offered Gods help, and most Christians believe that Baptism returns to you God's special Grace that Original Sin deprived you of.

The person I responded to, while he was defending his belief that faith alone saves, was skirting close to saying that God chooses some, while not others.

I don't believe that Faith alone saves you, but I can deal with an opposing belief without trying to argue it, since I've come to believe the arguements pointless.
The idea that a perfect being only wants some people to be saved, however, was something I felt the need to state my opposition to.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Ah, but there are more religions than Christianity, yes?

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Banks and banks of humming machinery! I've never seen so many knobs. We're going to have to do something, Charlie! Try pushing that button there. No? How about that one? No, not that one either. I know! I'll try pushing this one. Hold my hat will you? Good fellow.

*looks at Katt's post and wipes a tear from his eye* We need more people like you where I live.

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Debating politics on the internet is about as useful and productive as shoving a broomstick up your *** .

Very well put, stat.

Oh, Katt has explained essentially what I tried to about swearing in my previous post -- casual can be okay (depending on the use), but the rest is sinful. I generally do not curse anyone else off (unless "necessary") and try not to use "God" irreverantly, but I often curse off myself, and if swearing (in all forms) is sinful, then I've followed the commandment about halfway :\




I have to agree with that -- the world needs more people like Katt.

Do you think the Church authorities will make an exception and allow Katt to be cloned?

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nytfyre m0d || f33l t3h p0w3r || t3h l0st c0gz || OMF > *

[This message has been edited by Darth Slaw (edited August 20, 2004).]

I've met just a spartan few people who have the insight and tolerance of katt. I do also wish there were more of them. Because 90% of the Christian's I've met are, frankly, closed minded bigots. The other 10% are a lot like a few peeps here - open minded, sensible and sound.

Long live tolerance.

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Ok, I'm sorry I called you a dufus. You did a very popular, but very uniformed "look what you do, you're a hypocrite" argument. It's dumb. Now you know.

Bear in mind though, I'm a bit ticked because people have been telling me to shut up this whole thread even though all I do I state my opinion! You may not agree but you have no right to tell me to shut up! I think some of you are wrong but I don't get all arrogant and tell you to shut up, do I? I try to argue your position in a civilized manor and you tell me to shut up! I’m entitled to my opinion just as much as you are to yours, aren’t I?

What's your point? Atheists don't believe in the existence of a god. Monotheists believe in the existence of one god. Polytheists believe in the existence of many gods. It's a matter of prefixes and definitions, not what religion you don't belong to.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded

Don't you goddamned hippies have jobs?

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"A drug person can learn to handle such things as seeing their dead grandmother crawling up their leg with a knife in her teeth. But no one should be asked to deal with this trip."
-Raoul Duke, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

I quit today.

Anyway, Obi, it's not so much what your saying, but how your saying it. Holier-than-thou attitudes do not fly most places.

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Debating politics on the internet is about as useful and productive as shoving a broomstick up your *** .

No, I told you to shut up, and I was out of line - but you were being a tool.

You don't just state your opinion, you tell everyone who isn't christian that your religion is better than theirs, which frankly sucks arse. You are only entitled to an opinion here if it's deemed postworthy by the admins - neither that claim, nor my reply was - so you're not entitled to that opinion here, nor am I mine about you. Sorry if I was harsh, but you were out of line.

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

I agree with Katt 85%. I'm slightly more skeptical towards evolution (due to personal rather than religious reasons; I just never liked the idea), but other than that, I agree with almost everything in that post.

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Moo.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Banks and banks of humming machinery! I've never seen so many knobs. We're going to have to do something, Charlie! Try pushing that button there. No? How about that one? No, not that one either. I know! I'll try pushing this one. Hold my hat will you? Good fellow.

You quit your job, or you quit being a goddamned hippy?

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded