But that's NOT why walmart et al won't sell AO games. They won't sell them because a bunch of stupid *******s got together and told walmart if you continue to sell these things that we don't want to buy anyway, we won't shop here. And walmart caved. Immediately. They didn't even think about it, because walmart only cares about the $$$.

Joncy has been saying this all along, and you've entirely ignored it. Both of you.

Wrong. I said from the very beginning that this is not the fault of ratings. This is the fault of retailers and the groups forcing said retailers to do so. Without them doing this, the rating system has no power. Essentially it had no place in this debate from the very beginning, which is exactly why I've time and again said I didn't care about possible bias in the ESRB and such, and why I don't care, nor need to watch that documentary. Because, right or wrong, is irrelevant to the point I made from the beginning (See also):

Ratings are not inherently censorship.

That's changes nothing, and if you had paid any attention at all you would have noticed that I have admitted to this fact out several times. If there was real demand for these products it wouldn't matter if Wal-Mart sold them or not. It's Wal-Mart's right to sell what it wants, and it chooses to sell a selection of products that will bring in the largest possible variety of customers.

back to the level form Postal 3... i mean the airport level form COD6...

i think it's genius to put something that harsh in the game... really drives home the "this guy is a bad man" thing and makes you really wonder what greater evil you would be stopping by not killing the guy and preventing the slaughter of all those civilians at the airport

I don't think anyone is saying they are inherently censorship. They're saying that ratings are effectively censorship.

That doesn't change anything. The act of having a rating on a game does not mean it is censored.

This isn't Australia or Germany we're talking about, where regardless of rating, games can be banned from being sold entirely.

Wait, Walmart won't sell AO games because they were pressured into it?

I can tell you with 100% ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY this is NOT the case. Walmart pressures companies to do what Walmart wants them to do, not the other way around, and certainly not to any special interest group.

Walmart does not sell AO games for the same reason they don't want to sell porn or music with explicit lyrics. WALMART does not want to. The Walton family is very, how would ya say it, old fashioned when it comes to things.

If all Walmart cared about was the money, they'd sell porn, as the porn business is rather profitable.

Wal-mart is just as influenced by bad press as any other big company. Need an example? Look at Microsoft. The horribly bad press going around about Vista hurt Microsoft and their product's image terribly, despite that there wasn't anything actually wrong with Vista as a whole.

I don't see how this arguement has lasted this long honestly. I agree completely with Cool Matty, and that's saying something. (No offense CM but we've had a few disagreements before).

Ratings are not 'effectively' censhorship. They don't censor anything, they only give it the appropriate rating. How by any stretch of logic can you conclude that it is censorship? Because they don't make it to large retail stores? Not censorship.

GTA:SA was ripped off the shelf because it had hidden content that would of given it an AO rating. The retailers got pissed off at them because it was snuck in under their nose, that's it. It pissed them off because THEY CHOOSE NOT TO SELL AO material.

It's just like CM said. There is nothing from stopping anyone on this forum from creating an AO game full of blood, gore, drug use and sexual material and sellling it. In Germany, there IS. THAT is censorship.

Jesus, use your head people.

I'm aware that Walmart is hurt by bad press. But if they sold music that wasn't censored you think people would stop shopping there? Nope.

It's their choice.

They tell the music companies 'hey look we aren't selling your music unless you edit it or bleep out the profanity'. Music company says 'ok we can't afford to lose your business.'

That simple.

Ah, I see. Since we can't ignore the fact that Wal-Mart's near-monopoly gives them almost total control over game publishers, what you're saying is that it's really Sam Walton who is censoring the industry and not his customers.

Sam Walton : Being an ******* from beyond the grave!

I see U.S. citizens staging an uprising against.... ....Wal-Mart... in the near future. <_<

If demand for games that Walmart won't sell was great enough, by definition they wouldn't have that monopoly. Walmart's power is confined to matters where the changes are not significant in the eyes of most customers.

For example, if Walmart wouldn't sell first person shooters, the genre would be fine, because a lot of people like first person shooters, and they would simply buy the games elsewhere. However, AO content is not terribly important to most gamers, and it would alienated a lot of potential gamers regardless of the rating, so it makes no sense to develop those games, Walmart or no.

I'm not arguing with you.

But what I will do, is point out the fact you think I'm talking about Sam Walton and not the Walton Family, despite me not having mentioned anything about Sam Walton.

For someone who implied Cool Matty wasn't reading your posts as well as he thought, it's amazing you'd somehow put information that wasn't there into mine.

Just keep thinking the video game/film industry is censored because of a mass conspiracy theory you believe after seeing a movie explaining such conspiracy.

I don't care.

I think you way, way overestimate the buying power of core gamers.

I forgot Sam Walton was dead. Of course, I retract my egregious error of conflating him and his children.

Naturally. When can I expect you to cite a more credible source?

Censorship doesn't have to be a direct law or anything, if someone sees that they shouldn't make something, they won't make it just as much as the guy who can't.

When you claim Cool Matty doesn't read your posts as well as he thinks he does, you should make sure you read my much less winded ones more carefully.



Wow really? I guess because it's the only source, it must be credible, right? I mean there can't be any other sources, a man as smart as yourself would have brought them up, instead of a motion picture [see below].

I likened it to 'Loose Change'. I guess I should of just called it bull****, instead of relying on someone to connect the dots. Sorry about that.

Doesn't the very idea that a film such as 'This Film Is Not Yet Rated' existing, when apparently there's a conspiracy theory about censorship, when said film EXPOSES THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE CONSPIRACY, shown in theaters, printed on DVD, etc., seem just flat out stupid?

It does, because it is.

Now now, I already conceded that the Walton family and Sam Walton are different entities. Indeed, according to Wikipedia the five most prominent members are Sam Walton's son, Sam Walton's son, Sam Walton's son, Sam Walton's daughter and Sam Walton's wife. I agree that Sam Walton's name isn't in there anywhere so I don't think we have to keep beating on this dead horse.

I invite you to spend less time on rhetoric and more time refuting the claims made in "This Film Is Not Yet Rated."

Er.....so anywhoo, wasn't sure about buying MW2 for the PC at luanch due to the short SP campaign and then I read about the multiplayer nerfs which basically kills any interest I had. Not a protest really, just a value for money decision. There are quite a few good games out in the last few months which are cheaper and will give me more bang for my buck.

As for the Airport video... yeah that doesn't particularly bother me. I've seen far more violent and realistic things in movies and no I don't think "controlling" the person with the gun increases the impact on the player. I am an absolute pussy when it comes to extreme violence (you couldn't force me to watch a Saw movie) and that video strikes me as little more than the rendered pixels that it is. Of course definitely the ratings classification should restrict people say under 16 from playing it, but if any ADULT finds that at all desensitizing to what the real deal would be like they have other serious underlying issues.

To me the worst sin in that video is that it looks utterly boring. This is why it's better when things shoot back.

PS - on an Australian specific note, our games classification organisation is a joke easily manipulated by knee jerk family groups. All they are succeeding in doing is crippling Australian retailers as people just either pirate it or buy it on Steam, both obviously cheaper options.

Does Steam let you circumnavigate national censorship? I would've thought that the Germans would go nuts if that was possible for them.

Nope, it gives you localized copies.
Russians have actually complained about not getting English, and vice versa.

Yup, the censorship only screws over traditional retailers which drives people to Steam for unrestricted content.....which in turn makes people realise how much cheaper Steam is than traditional aussie retailers

(Games over here are ridiculously overpriced, with our exchange rate Steam is almost always lightyears cheaper. I can get Dragon Age on Steam for a bit over AU$53. EB is charging...well..... this.)

EDIT - well this used to be so, but reading about Left4Dead 2 it seems even Steam has censoring in that one......there is of course work arounds. Ah, I love being treated like a child by my government.

Hey, at least you're not treated like a criminal DESPITE YOUR ORIGINS like we are.

But no really, that's pretty cool by and large. I don't do Steam, only because I'm a mac fanboi and play games on my 360.

Be careful of Jaiph. If you look a bit aborigine, he might steal your babies.

Well as a ginger, balding man I reckon I'll be ok

I found one part of Modern Warfare 2 incredibly offensive...

Detonating a nuke in the upper atmosphere and creating a shockwave in space that destroys the ISS? Seriously, that's offensive to science!

DICE gives Infinity Ward the finger:
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/11677889-post19.html ...
hahaha, this makes me love DICE all the more. Atleast someone still
cares about the online PC gaming community...

that's just setup for Call of Duty: The Rise of Zod

Awesome.

The L4D2 boycott is the same, they all pre-ordered and had the demo early.

Haha, pretty funny. I'm also a fan of RamboKlev's avatar >.>

And this is why nobody cares about online boycotts

The FPS genre has ridiculously wide appeal. MW2 did not make 300M$ in a few days because a bunch of turds in Walmart decided it had cool box art.

Go DICE!

Guess what, I haven't seen 'Loose Change' either. The good thing about bull**** is you can smell it, no need to take a closer look to find out it's bull****.

Also, I don't care.

Anyhow, I bought the game and find the single player pretty sweet, and while the multiplayer is fun, it's a little to...."Xbox Live ish" so to speak. I don't really care too much about not being able to play MODs or custom levels...yet.

Oh well :(.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cMC37VkyTA

Its less than 3 days and people are already aim botting.

But the admin can always... o wait....

G ****ing G.

Ah, a statement is false because it is false. Petitio principii. A part of skillful debate is the ability to employ logical fallacies without your opponent catching you. I was mistaken; you do need to spend more time on your rhetoric.

Well great that figures. Maybe VAC will step up and ban em. Unlikely.



I'm not trying to debate you Jon. I've already made it clear I think it's stupid to believe a conspiracy theory about film ratings censoring the industry when the medium your information is presented on is film. And your 'debate' is flawed from the beginning, as ya don't seem to understand what exactly censorship is.

Again, I don't care.