I like guns, I like to collect them, hunt, target shoot, and protect my home from invaders.

You saying I have a disease? eff you Tenshu

Uh ok.. And what exactly about your home is it you're 'protecting' ?

If you think it's normal that we start carrying guns on the streets, in restaurants, clothing stores, ... we don't just have a disease; we are INSANE.

Someone on here told me to 'stop watching movies'. Really? Who's the deluded action hero here?

My way of life... It's happened before, a person catches an intruder in their home, the intruder doesn't want to get caught so they attack the home owner or kill them, then what.

It doesn't effect you any, why do you want to take my gun away? It's not fair to me, a responsible gun owner.

Because you're SICK!

That sounds really cool, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

Tenshu, you know that quotation from John Stuart Mill about he being wretched who thinks nothing is worth violence? He was talking about war, but I think the principle applies, and it just pops to mind, for me, after reading your comment about being "compliant" when someone breaks into your house with the intent to do wrong.

Where would you, personally, draw that line? Is there anything that you would consider worth doing violence to another person? I'm curious, because it would help flesh out your viewpoint.

edit: here's the one "The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." But don't pay too much attention to the stuff about 'miserable creature', that's not the point I'm getting at.

It means something to me *******. You have nothing to say about the rest of my post? thats what I thought.

I've had this quote on my facebook for a while, a bigger section though.

careful steven tenshu might do the lazy thing and say the same about everyone else

tenshu... if i'm reading your posts correctly and you believe that all gun owners are insane and violent people... it might be a good idea not to call them sick or insane

especially me with my collection of military firearms which have a high probability with most of them that at some point in time they were used by one person to end the life of another... so so i must be obsessed with guns that have been used to kill people so i might be more "sick" and "insane" than the rest of them

it's only a logical leap in your personal delusions

No, I mean how the hell does 'owning a firearm' protect your way of life? An armed burglar is walking through your house at night, are you gonna draw a gun on him and put both your lives, and that of your family, at risk? Or are you gonna act normal and compliant and in all probability survive this, minus maybe a TV and some money?

If your TV getting stolen damaged your 'way of life', you might want to rethink this 'way of life', it sounds kinda empty.



This is the rest of your post right?



I seriously doubt this. How the hell would an unarmed dude 'catch' an armed burglar, who is masked and unrecognizable? Maybe I underestimate the jungle that is the United States, but I seriously doubt a lot of burglars fire on sight at you or your family (or your way of life :p). Nobody gives a **** about you. They want your money. Pulling a gun on an armed person is the number one stupid move to do.

Your 'way of life' is under attack right? Sounds like some bull**** planted into you by your politicians. Not even 'sounds like', it IS bull**** planted into you by your politicians, that EXACT phrase. Worse than a coca-cola slogan. Who is it that's intruding on your way of life? Terrorists? Republicans? Democrats? Atheists? Homosexuals? Christians? The axis of evil? They'll always find someone new to keep you retarded and paranoid. What a way to live!



You want to talk about delusions? Look around you - nothing of that **** that's in your head is actually out there. NOONE is threatening you. Nobody can limit your freedom if you don't want to. Nobody can take away your peace if you don't want to.



Uh yeah dude, you sound kind of scary..




Thanks to saberopus, for introducing literature into this I'll respond in kind:

Weapons are the tools of violence;
all decent men detest them.

Weapons are the tools of fear;
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.
Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?
His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.
He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral.

-Lao Tzu

I deeply and truly agree with all of that. Not that I'm saying I'm a decent man

I hope this literature hasn't added to the pussification of this thread

Stay frosty out there guys, and report back every once in a while :D:D

If someone with legitimate military or law enforcement training wants to carry a gun or keep one in their home, I'm probably okay with that in most cases. The problem I have is people like zanardi. People who go, "I AR G'ON PROTECT MERSELF AND MER FAMILY :HAW:" and actually have NO idea what they're doing and will end up doing more harm than good.

People love anecdotes about gun control. "Oh this one time someone shot up a Starbucks, someone had a weapon but left it in their car because guns weren't allowed in Starbucks! Think of how many lives could be saved if we could carry our guns everywhere!"

Hey I know, how about using REAL DATA instead of pulling random facts out of your ass? If someone can find REPUTABLE* numbers on the number of times people have lived/died as the result of civilian intervention with a firearm, maybe I'll change my mind.

* Cannot be published by the NRA or anyone else who donates money to the Republican Party

Do you expect every burglar to not do any harm as long as the victim is compliant?

Maybe not, Anakin, but a more effective way to protect yourself in your home would be to get better, more secure windows and doors. A security system. Hell, even a dog. I would feel a LOT safer if all my windows were made out of security glass and the door and window frames were reenforced to stop ramming. These are expensive improvements but if they're done right will keep you MUCH safer than a firearm (burglars can't do much if they can never get in).

You forget that you're arguing against people who truly believe that the moral high ground and therefore their trust rests with thieves and murderers over those who would defend themselves.

Tenshu, I like your Lao Tzu quote. Obviously, again, it is about war, but it can be applied to smaller scales of general principle. May I make some observations?

Weapons are the tools of violence;
all decent men detest them.

Weapons are the tools of fear;
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.

(The main idea here being hurting and killing people isn't good. But IF COMPELLED, you WILL USE THEM, with the utmost restraint. Meaning, as a last resort...you WILL USE THEM)

Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?
His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.
He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral.

(HE ENTERS A BATTLE GRAVELY. But he enters it. He doesn't enjoy it, but he does it because it is necessary.)

-Lao Tzu

And Emon, you're totally right. Here I was leaving my doors wide open all night.

You'll say anything to try to make me look lesser than you.

I don't really care, you guys can say and think what you want but I'll always have my guns so..

For the record, I am not really in favor of most gun control. I just don't really buy the claim that everyone toting a gun makes us all more safe.

I don't think you're lesser than me or worse of a person or anything like that...


...but really?

Your safety is none of my concern. My safety however is of the utmost importance to me, hence I own and carry a firearm.

Yeah, this.

**** you Emon

I fail to see how rolling over and taking it in the ass from a burglar is better than shooting a goddamn piece of **** criminal when he disregards everything about your safety and property in order to steal, kill, and destroy.

Presumably because said criminal would likely shoot you first.

Well Emon you've really been on my case lately and I don't know what I ever did..? Yecti has the right idea. If safety windows and frames and dogs help you sleep at night thats great, I don't live in the ghetto so my single 380 should get the point across.

Also I'm not willingly going to let theifs take items or money I've worked hard for. Then walk out, the cops aren't going to find them, insurance isn't going to cover anything. If I at the least, scare the **** out of them, they might think twice about walking into another persons home.

And I think it's important to be prepared for any kind of situation, for instance, always keep condoms in your car and practice safe sex! You never know when your going to score.

Emon does!

P(E) = 0

Wow, lots of testosterone in this thread all of a sudden



Mine is too and I don't have a gun. I'm more safe and less paranoid than you.



You fail to see it, yep.

Also, we were talking about a burglar who disregards your property and steals, not a 'piece of **** criminal who disregards everything about your safety in order to kill and destroy'. You added that.

Quite the opposite; when you need a tool, you won't have it because you're too sacred and worried of being hurt by it.

I'm glad this is where we are, now, in this thread.

Tenshu, here's how I understand your point of view:

You don't really have a problem with guns. You have two problems:

1. You don't believe anything is worth fighting for.
and
2. You are afraid of weapons because they represent power.

In regards to point 1, you would gladly let someone steal from you or kill you if they so pleased because you don't believe it is ever okay to hurt someone. That is your prerogative. I disagree. I will gladly fight someone who is trying to take from me, both on principle and as a matter of practicality. When the cashier overcharges you, do you leave without saying something? If someone walked past you and took your ipod or phone off of your table, would you stand up and say "hey, give it back ********"? I try to live like I would. I would gladly LOSE a fistfight over that principle, if I thought a fistfight is all it would be.

Point 2 kind of speaks for itself, it's not complicated logic that goes into it. But basically, it's not so much the power, but it's the uncertainty of how MUCH power. Is it enough? Is it too much? You don't know so you default to NO power, because you KNOW that isn't enough, and it gives you the excuse to not fight, as per your philosophy of "self preservation unless it requires effort, or time, or inconvenience, or risk".

You are the kid in the soccer game who pretends to twist his ankle right before he takes a shot at the goal, so he never has to find out if he could have made it, but who wants to stay on the team anyway and get the trophy if they win.

If you want to be him, fine. But don't twist my ankle.

The whole thing about calling someones "way of life" empty platitudes is absurd. It is about living as you see fit(within the law). Having as much control of your life as possible. My family and to a lesser extent my possesions are all part of my " way of life" as well as how to care for and defend these things. How I earn a living is a part of my way of life. Also what Religion I follow, or don't follow, and how I practice it. There are an almost endless list of things that constitute my "way of life" so get out of my face with that "your way of life" is an old useless phrase ****.

Yeah, if someone holds me up at gunpoint on the street when I'm out with my wife I will probably tryand be compliant if it will keep my wife out of danger. but honestly first chance I get, the first wrong move the guy makes I am going to try and take him out. at what point is being compliant not an option. Hopefully you do have a cutoff point (tenshu and emon)

Extreme example: You stop an attack on your life by spraying down your attacker and hitting four bystanders in the process. This is okay?

So like I said, put better security on your home. You'll be safer and your belongings will be safer if an intruder can never get in in the first place. Waiting for someone to break in, then hoping they don't attack you (especially if they get the drop on you and your pulling a gun out startles them), is a terrible idea. It's a horribly unpredictable situation that just puts your life in danger.

Now of course this doesn't apply to people who aren't homeowners, can't afford anything more than a gun and need it because they live in the slums. These are different situations and maybe they apply to you, I don't know. And like I said, I'm not really for gun control, and I really don't care if you want to keep one in your house. But using that to argue against gun control? That's just silly.

Wow, straw man much? He's not saying things aren't worth fighting for. He's saying your TV or your wallet isn't worth risking your life for.

I didn't say anything of the kind. As I said, I agree about *everything* with the Lao Tzu quote I posted (who I think you've got confused with Sun Tzu). There are times of violence, but with utmost restraint, and only in direst need (and this may sound contradictory: with and because of deep compassion).

How fast people are willing to become violent - THAT'S the disease. Look at this last page. Look at the papers and the TV news. People murdering eachother over IRRELEVANT **** that has NO MEANING WHATSOEVER. When are we gonna wake up from this?

None of you have even read the things I actually said - you just post knee-jerk reactions to what you THINK I said, often in replies dosed in large amounts of stupid retarded rambo-testosterone.

Let me say this very simply - if you're willing to shoot a gun at a living human being because he stole your MEANINGLESS, LIFELESS PROPERTY, there is something very wrong with you. I know I'll get more hardcore badass replies over this - but if you think that's normal, YOU ARE SICK. BRAINWASHED. This hatred you cherish, you are doing it to yourself.

A couple of years ago, there was an article about a mountain climber who got his arm stuck between two pieces of rock. Couldn't get it out. So he decided to amputate his own arm with a knife he had with him. Dude cut off his own arm. Lost it forever. You think that disturbed his peace and happiness for long?

Nope!

Dude was smiling, and truly happy. Not acting happy, *being* happy.

You're about to lose your TV, and you're willing to shoot another person for it. You grind your teeth and hate and lose your peace because of something that's not real. That's the definition of insane. This ain't rocket-science. You didn't even lose your arm, but a tv. This guy didn't care, and you're all twisted and outraged and hateful. There's something wrong with you.

Arguing with Tenshu

You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with a little phantom you've got in your head.

But maybe if you post that gif one more time??

Although, just before going to sleep, I take all that nonsense I said back...

**** guys, your TV, you're gonna miss "FRIENDS"!!

This thread:

Tenshu, I don't think the tv. Or any other inanimate(sp) object is the point. It's about protecting your household and your family, or just yourself. This is not testesterone driven fury at some one "stealin mah teevee!!!" it's about someone making a decision to invade your home and possibly already putting you and your family in danger. I just don't think anyone else should be able to dictate how you can handle that situation. Obviously you should not be able to detonate an atomic bomb in your own living room, but having a gun is reasonable.

Detonating an atomic bomb in your living room makes me laugh

Emon, strawman perhaps, but not intentionally so, nor with any sort of ill intent.

Tenshu: Why did you think I had him confused with Sun Tzu? I never said anything about him...?

I think the problem here is that you seem to think that we are all arguing that it's okay to shoot someone to protect our TV? Where did you get that idea? There's an awfully big logical leap between owning a firearm and using it to shoot someone over a TV. Let me lay it out for you, choose your own adventure style. This is not the worst case, where a homicidal killer breaks in with the sole intent of taking my life. This case is, I believe more like what you are envisioning.

A man break into my house. I wake up and walk into my living room to find him carting off my xbox. This man has decided to take property from me, and risk the consequences. Should I let him take it and think to myself "oh, it's just an xbox, it's okay that people can take what they want when they want."? No. I say "Hey, douchebag, put down the xbox." Now, at this point, the man must make some more decisions. Is this xbox worth a life? Is his freedom worth a life? If he answers no to these questions, maybe he puts it down and runs, maybe he lays on the ground. If he answers yes, then at this point he may decide to attempt to harm me or kill me with a knife or a gun or whatever. HE is the one who has then made the decision to hurt or kill over an xbox, not me. So, if I were to shoot him now, in self defense, how would I be wrong? And do you deny that I have the right, in my own house, to be cautious enough to prepare for the worst case and have my gun out should this event occur and I go into the room to confront the guy?

Why should the guy breaking into the house have the right to fight for his freedom or stolen property, or whatever, but the owner of the house should not have this same right, when he is not the instigator?

I'm not sure where you got this fantasy image that you seem to be fixated on of some evil hillbilly popping off shots with an AK as a poor, innocent burglar runs off into the night with his possessions.