I seem to recall saying that I wouldn't shoot someone over property. Except perhaps if it was my only livelihood with no insurance, but fortunately I'm not in that kind of circumstance. You know, being from a first world country and being fortunate and all that. You are just as guilty of these knee jerk responses as anyone.

People get shot by armed robbers, because the perpetrator thinks nobody is home and has his gun with him so that, well, whatever, these are the people who fit your psycho description. He probably doesn't have a good reason. And he shoots the homeowner because he's a ****ing psycho who thinks that will somehow keep him from getting caught. It is not psychotic at all to assume that someone who is in your house, at night, causing damage to your property, is also there to cause damage to your person. It's called being cautious. Theres also this novel concept of escalation of force. Your first move is to try and identify who they are while leaving the area. However, that failing, in my home at least, they will be killed. I won't be happy about it, and it's not going to make me feel good, no matter what you say about me.

I have locks on my doors. I have locks on my windows. They stay locked. I'm not an idiot and I'm not a psycho. I spent a few months when I got home from Iraq being hyper alert and paranoid. Now, it's settled back into the same careful alertness I've always had. I can go up to strangers on the street and I can do anything you do. I hardly fit the profile of a right wing nutjob. If you took the time to have a real discussion you would see that. Instead you are too busy applying stereotypes of Americans that you get from the media, and assume that people are shooting each other over TVs when the minority of people who own guns for defense are willing to do that.

I don't take my gun everywhere. If I'm drinking, I don't take it. However, I have also had the opportunity to live in and visit some places in the world that have confirmed my belief that views such as yours result from a sheltered life. If you live in a safe, sheltered environment (such as, oh, what's that important part of a Japanese castle...) then there is no reason to own or be familiar with any sort of weapon. However, being terrified and disgusted by those things existing outside your castle keep is immature and naive. Even within the castle walls, where things are relatively safe, bad things happen.

I don't carry my gun because I am looking for a fight. I certainly don't carry it to make me feel manlier, since nobody can see it, and it is a last resort tool. I don't expect to ever draw my weapon on anyone here, but it's not impossible. I have a tool to manage some situations, but it certainly doesn't fix all of them. Theres a reason I have years of experience in martial arts. One of those martial arts being marksmanship. Yes, I am well trained. Yes, someone who is not police or military can seek out better training than both of those organizations offer. I have some above average first aid training, and always have my cell phone and pocket knife.

Chances are I am much more likely to have to call the police about a shooting (done it) or cut a seatbelt off of someone in a car wreck (watched that get done before) than rush in guns blazing. Which to bring up Emon's idiotic comment, no, that's not okay. But that is not proper use of a firearm anyway so it's not really the point here. What makes you think that would be okay in any standard situation? I might feel okay about that if, say the person had a very large suicide vest that could take out a whole market. But even then I wouldn't be spraying bullets because it will make the ****ing vest explode.

Get over your stereotypes, you're bringing up things people in this thread haven't even said, and you're painting a picture of me that is pretty far from accurate with almost no information. Real intelligent.

Please, I wait for your next knee jerk response that accuses me of doing the same. Trust me, I'm all about peace and living in harmony. But I've experienced the flip side and I happen to realize that as humans we aren't at a point where handshakes can fix everything. We've got a long way to go, and far more important things to do than getting rid of guns. You know, like feeding and educating people.

I don't carry a weapon capable of spraying down my attacker. I understand that if I am ever forced to draw and fire my weapon I must shoot to kill. I can never foresee an instance where the dedication I have placed into understanding my weapon, how it functions, how it fires, how to be accurate using it etc will allow me to even in the heat of the moment or under extreme duress empty 16 rounds indiscriminately where others would be harmed.

Yecti, anything which can be used inappropriately is inherently bad.

That's good for you, Yecti, however not every gun owner is just like you.

I know you're being sarcastic but no one has said ANYTHING LIKE THIS AT ALL.

If someone shoots 4 bystanders by accident, then they are going to be charged with a crime. Now, the exact legal consequences I don't know, but it's be something like negligent homicide, I'm sure.

Emon, no, you're right. Not exactly. But you seem to be arguing that the potential for accidents overrides the legitimacy of the tool, but without taking into full account the actual likelihood of the accident, the value and effectiveness of the tool, or the effectiveness of the alternative tools or safety measures.

Why, how, I really don't know. I just REALLY don't know how you keep distorting everything you read.

Tenshu isn't (as far as I can tell), and I am certainly not, saying ANYTHING about rights. Yes, if someone breaks into your home and there's reasonable evidence that he's a danger to your wellbeing, you have the right to shoot to kill. You have the right to your life. You have the right to your property. No one is arguing that.

What I believe Tenshu has been saying, which I have agreed with, is that pulling a gun on someone who is trying to steal your Xbox isn't worth it. It's not even worth it to shout at the guy and ask him to drop it. For all you know, as soon as he sees you he'll pull out a gun and fire. It's just not worth the risk.

You're absolutely right, but those who are here arguing for gun rights are most likely just like me. Most gun advocates are extremely safe handlers. Most anyone willing to open carry is going to understand the gravity of their weapon. The dangerous folks are the people who stay quiet about guns and own them illicitly, not the majority of advocates.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I'm not arguing this. I'm concerned about it. I'm not convinced either way.


Which I explicitly stated was not known, and until it was known, no conclusions could be made.

You say that, but you don't know that. I'm sure that most people who go to shooting ranges or NRA meetings or whatever are pretty responsible. I also can't be certain there aren't a lot of legal gun owners that are irresponsible. It's unpredictable.

I don't care about you having a gun to protect you. If I lived in Detroit a horribly dangerous city I would almost certainly carry a gun. I'm just a bit worried about public situations, let's say a hold up at a store, which would ordinarily go smoothly without anyone getting hurt until someone decides to be a hero.

Uh - THE LAST TIME I ADDRESSED YOU WAS ON PAGE 3 - IT'S YOU WHO AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION.

I have absolutely no problem with anything you said, and I do appreciate you're moderate and intelligent about this - I think that's obvious.

If you think my stereotypes are based on nothing - have you READ the replies on the previous pages?

Let's get back to my point - before it gets (purposefully!) misinterpreted AGAIN:

-there are rare times when violence is indicated and necessary(armed burglar endangering yourself or family)
-you're not important - noone is after you
-the threshold for MOST of the people in this thread to reach for their gun is unbelievably LOW - they'll literally shoot for any reason (just read the thread and see the rambos here) . I called it a disease, but call that whatever you want.

Conclusions for me:
-It's FAR too easy to get hold of a firearm.
-A scenario in which people carry guns with them everywhere they go is really absolutely scary. Not only that, if we don't start seeing things a little clearer, things will only get more grim. Buy more guns, get more obsessed and there'll be no end to this bull****. Does anyone think this road will end up anywhere else than in more violence?

That's it. That's my way of thinking, which everyone here seems to think of as unintelligible.

Yecti seemed be be suggesting that his safety was more important than that of the people around him. Why do you think I said "extreme example"? Of course it's not proper use. It's also possible for someone to panic and do exactly that. That's what I'm getting at: I have no guarantee that anyone carrying a firearm is both properly trained and able to keep a level head.

This is the part we have a problem with. We don't all go "yay, a crook in my house, now I get to shoot somebody."

Do we WANT to have to do that? No. But we will if we have to, and if we have to, we need the tool at hand.

Well now I'm just confused because I thought Tenshu agreed on that.

I fail to see how rolling over and taking it in the ass from a burglar is better than shooting a goddamn piece of **** criminal when he disregards everything about your safety and property in order to steal, kill, and destroy.

wtf? Am I truly not seeing straight? You two are the same people, aren't you?

I'm not talking about legal rights. I'm talking about moral rights...that is to say, "it is morally okay and maybe even morally desirable to do this". My example was supposed to illustrate that he is placing more of the burden of the outcome on the victim over the victimizer. It's like saying "Oh she was asking to get raped, being dressed like that!"

You say it's not worth confronting a guy victimizing you. I hope you don't go around telling people that, because I know who'll be the first one to get robbed. You're right, for all you know, he could pull out a gun and fire. That's his choice...and therefore my choice is to greet him with a gun, just in case.
Do you see what I'm trying to say? The one with the blame in that situation is the victimizer who created the situation: the thief/robber. If he decides that the xbox is worth a life, then I'd rather it be his than mine. All I claim is that the xbox and the principle of not rolling over are worth the risk that he will make a poor decision IF I take steps to make sure that the risk is very small.

I don't leave my windows open or put up signs that read "ROB ME" so I can practice vigilante justice.

I'm not excited about the prospect, but I won't feel bad if I have to do it.

Actually, chances are no matter your mental preparation that you will feel bad no matter how big you talk beforehand. Like really bad. But that's neither here nor there...the point is that you shouldn't have to feel bad more than is necessary lest you become like the vietnam vets.

Good, so was I.


I HAVE NOT SAID THIS AT ALL.

I said that, in the case of a burglary, if it seems that someone is there to steal your property, IT ISN'T WORTH RISKING YOUR LIFE.



Of course he's the one to blame. I'm just saying it's STUPID to risk your life over property that can be easily replaced*.

*Obviously not talking about a situation where a burglar is about to steal their entire life and wellbeing

That is exactly what you said. You said it isn't worth risking your life to confront a guy who is victimizing you by stealing your property. I agree, for a certain level of risk, like, say: confronting him empty handed, with no training, and alone. I'm saying that to me it is unacceptable to allow someone to victimize you with fear, though...so the natural solution is to work to reduce the risk associated with confronting the guy. The way to do that is to take the upper hand, namely by having a weapon and knowing how and when to use it. To me, this reduces the risk enough for me to be comfortable in this theoretical situation in standing up for myself.

Victimizing you by stealing your property and victimizing IN GENERAL are very different. It's like if I said, "I wouldn't bother fighting back if someone slapped me in the face." And then you said, "You wouldn't fight back if you were being assaulted??" It's not the same at all!

"Being victimized" also includes being raped in the ass. I would certainly fight back against that. But in the situation of a home burglar, where as Tenshu pointed out, the guy isn't even after ME, I'm not going to put MY LIFE in a situation where it can become jeopardized. Even if there's only, say, a 5% chance I could get hurt when confronting a burglar over an Xbox, I won't do it! Because even that small a chance of me being hurt (or killed) isn't worth the price of an Xbox, or a TV, or even a car. I'd rather just get out of there.

So if some guy was stealing your tv would you immediately shoot him? Would you do the whole "hands up" thing or just fire or what?

I'm a strong proponent of castle doctrines. I fully believe that a man entering my home uninvited with any malicious intent should be met with force equal to the threat I feel he poses. If that includes shooting him to death in my living room so be it. That doesn't make me a loose cannon.

I don't know. I guess it depends on a lot of things. If he's armed, on drugs, alone or with a group.

My thoughts, while safe at work on my computer, are that I'd rack my shotgun loudly and tell him to get the hell out. Go away, and we'll be OK. My first round is bird shot, so I could shoot the ceiling/floor/him if he refused to back down and it would just scare him up real good without any lasting damage. If it goes downhill from there, the next three rounds are buckshot and the last is a slug.



I completely agree with this statement, and could probably not word it any better.

I'm pretty sure we've ALL been in agreement with that.

Not Tenshu. He thinks we're all "sick" with a violent "disease" where are we willing to get violent quickly, and brainwashed to cherish hatred in our hearts.

Well I don't seeanyone arguing that it's okay or smart to blow a guy's head off just because he's in your house holding your stuff. Tenshu seems to be implying that this is what we all believe.

That guy was askin' for it! He had my ****! I had no choice but to put him down!

try reading MY posts in this thread before you make assumptions and posts something stupid




try reading in context i was making a point based on my observations of how tenshu views gun owners



thanks for helping me make my point tenshu

Definitely guilty of that one, I thought that was zanardi. Nevermind.

For the most part I would agree that that's probably not right to do, and if someone shoots someone in the back when they are trying to get away they should be punished, but it's negative impact on society is trivial. In fact it might be a net gain. This is a perfectly good example of a situation where you should punish the criminal, not infringe on the freedom of the populace.



There's really no data that shows that. It's not an argument, it's an assertion, and you haven't supported it at all.

You're so ideological that you're arguments are composed of strings of assertions that you expect people to agree with, but in reality are just dumb appeals to emotion.

Also you stereotype groups of people that you really don't know into the absurd way in which they are often characterized. Things don't work out the way to predict them to because people fundamentally just aren't the way you've come the think of them.

You guys are still talking about this? tldr

I think the real answer is to examine cases in the past where a government has changed its gun laws, and compare relevant crime and casualty rates before and after the change went into effect.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

All your logic, idealism, and dogma are meaningless until you can account for every intricacy, every complexity, every subtle thread of cause and effect that exists in the real world.

Vinny?

When did you learn to read?!

Seems to me I'm the ONLY one in this thread having backed up his claims with research - THE ***ONLY*** one. NOT you.

ARE WE READING THE SAME THREAD??




Read through this thread. These people stereotype themselves.

**read-it***.



like this post....????

tenshu... if i'm reading your posts correctly and you believe that all gun owners are insane and violent people... it might be a good idea not to call them sick or insane

especially me with my collection of military firearms which have a high probability with most of them that at some point in time they were used by one person to end the life of another... so so i must be obsessed with guns that have been used to kill people so i might be more "sick" and "insane" than the rest of them

it's only a logical leap in your personal delusions
...
thanks for helping me make my point tenshu


What is the point... Help me find a point in that post, other than it being genuinely scary.



...

read the thread. You imply yourself that this is what you believe.



That's what most of your posts in this thread SHOUT OUT, yes.

Unbelievable.. something really messed up is going on in this thread - data not getting through.

I'll add another point to my bullet list: people overestimate their own proficiency with guns and the ability to interpret situations. Instances of self-defense are overestimated. (a claim which-I-backed-up-with-research) The only one in this thread that, at first glance, I'd trust with a gun, is Spook for being professionally trained and thoughtful about all thus. probably wookiee as well.

You think I'm stereotyping you? Read your own posts, you're doing it to yourselves.

This thread is stupid.

I vote we turn it into a "post your guns" thread.

I'll start with something simple. This is the Springfield M6 Scout I keep in the trunk of my car.

I have a Leupold red dot sight installed. .22LR and .410 single shot (hammer adjust selector). Ammo stores in the stock.

i'm with steven

don't click this link if you are tenshu2.0 as you might find it too scary

Marlin Model 60s are the best! I've had mine since I was 10 years old. Fired thousands of rounds and never cleaned it once. Still works great. I just bought one for my little brother on his tenth birthday,

From what I read here, it sounds like you're saying "let the thief get away." Yeah, I can file a police report. But let's be real. A stolen XBox is not going to be worth Oceanside PD's time. OPD would rather work toward busting drunk Marines on Coast Hwy with DUIs. That means that $350 of which I presumably earned is now in the hands of another person unlawfully taken and probably will remain so. You would argue that said $350 is replaceable and you're still alive to tell the tail. Many would agree with you.

I lean towards what Bob is saying that if I have a firearm (or some other kind of weapon) readily handy, I would try to use it to defend life/property. I'm not exactly a complete noob when it comes to handguns. I've handled three different kinds of firearms and have some idea how to shoot. Edit: Obviously, if the unfortunate event does come to pass, it will be up to how I react to the situation. Do I panic and just hide in a closet and hope the ******* isn't armed/doesn't find me? Or do I stay calm, grab firearm, and defend. I would like to think I'm the latter...although I do overreact to stressful situations.

I had more of a concise point or direction I was going with this but it's 11:25 PM and I've had wine.

I think too many people believe that once a gun is pulled, it is fired. That simply isn't true.

I'm very against killing anyone, but if he's about to pull the trigger, I believe shooting first would be acceptable. Shooting to kill seems a tad extreme, but I understand completely that if they're carrying a firearm as well, they'll probably shoot to kill too.

The way you guys make your statements, though, make it seem like you have no compassion at all for the other persons life. "He broke in so I shot him. He deserved it." is the quote that came to mind repeatedly while reading several posts. Obviously, this may not be your intent, but for those in which it is: disregarding their life because they disregard yours, makes you no better than them.

On the subject of concealed weapons: I think some of you overestimate humanity as a whole, believing the majority are sensible enough to control themselves with such a powerful tool. Sorry to burst your bubble, but with great power comes great responsibility, and the majority of humanity isn't capable of handling said responsibility. Most of them, in America specifically (as that's where all the guns are, :downswords:), are rather paranoid and would surely pull their weapon out in haste. I know various people who moved to the US, and they've all said the same thing: it's scary down there, you never know when or who will snap on you.

In that regard, I agree with Tenshu2.0. It's scary to think that anyone around you may have a gun, and it's even more disturbing not knowing how many of them are actually responsible with it. The common reply to this, as I've seen, is "fight fire with fire" - carry your own gun. Regardless of whether this is a good tactic or not, it's ridiculous to have to be so afraid to go outside that you have to carry a gun every single day. That's how bad things are: everyone's afraid of dying on the way to the grocery store.

Luckily, I live in Canada, where guns are scarce and most criminals who break into houses don't have guns (most are minors), so the likely-hood of dying is quite a bit lower; nobodies going to shoot you, and as Jon`C said, killing someone with your bare hands is quite a ways off from shooting someone when it comes to psychology, but as I've seen, I don't think passing that barrier is all too difficult (countless people beating the living daylights out of others, even in Highschool, seems pretty close).

With break-ins, the homeowner has a tactical advantage: it's his home, he knows where everything is. I know it's not that simple, I know you can't simply point a gun and threaten to get them out, but there are other alternatives... and if he is stealing your xbox, just tell him it's got RROD.


PS: The first thing that comes to mind whenever gun laws comes up, is "Bowling for Columbine". lol