Not to really defend HIS point, but just because not many people do it doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. In fact often it's the opposite.


This is something that non-americans have trouble with, but for a large portion of americans there is a very serious difference between "taking from the rich to give to the poor" and "helping those less fortunate". Namely the part about "taking".

P.S.

BARACK OBAMA DOES NOT CARE ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE!:v:

You have got to stop doing this.

So, the Civil Rights Act wasn't progressive?

FACT: Obama is a Muslim.
FACT: Obama eats pork.
FACT: Muslims who eat pork go to hell.
LOGICAL CONCLUSION: The President is going to HELL.

Also. Patriotism is the belief that your country is better because you were born in it. (In my case, it's true.)

As I said in the opening post, there are many directions the discussion could lead. And you certainly seem to have "over-interpreted" my comments. I opined that I believe he isn't completely settled in his religious beliefs. In that regard, if I am correct, I have something in common with the President. I also opined that his election proved you don't have to be overtly Christian or even overtly patriotic. It seems to me that those were qualities he was praised by many for. And to simply explain my position on the oath of office I rephrase it to state that I don't believe any progressive is upholding the oath to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution although some have opined that the original document is safely locked away.



Irrelevant. I hold that the First Amendment says congress shall make no law regarding religion. I also hold that the Tenth Amendment makes it clear that States and the people are free to regulate this sort of issue. I also realize that there are progressive legal interpretations which would contradict my view.



It's not my term but it seems to be the one most people identify with the building struck by airplanes on that day. I used it mostly to contradict your erroneous position that the building is located blocks away from the site. It is a part of the site.



I don't think a minority of American's "ascribe" to the idea of being a Patriot. I think the idea of being a Patriot is something many, if not most, would aspire to. The distinction is that I just don't think loving your country is enough. For example, while I believe I have a reverence for my nation's founding principles, I don't believe I have done anything particularly exceptional for my country or fellow countrymen. So while I may aspire to be a Patriot, I don't think I've met the criteria.



No, it is a "take from one, give to another" sort of thing. I fail to see what the New Deal has to do with helping "those less fortunate than yourself" other than ensure less of that occurred.



I'm not going to entertain that debate now.

In general, no. I'm certain that, like practically all bills, progressive agenda was strategically inserted but the idea of equitable distribution of civil rights regardless of race certainly wasn't progressive. It was American.

He's slipped up several times while speaking and said things like "My muslim faith teaches..." He's also quote the Koran on more than one occaision.

(That said, my belief that he's muslim does not affect how I feel about him. He's a crappy president either way.)

Bull****. First, this is complete jibberish without any grounding in actual constitutional law, rejected not only by progressive legal scholars but by virtually all legal scholars. Second, if valid, your reasoning would invalidate the recent holding in McDonald v. Chicago, a holding I seem to remember you expressing agreement with. Third, in confirming that you did agree with that holding, I found another thread where you argued that:



To refresh everyone's memory, you made this statement while arguing that state and local governments were prohibited by the Second Amendment from infringing on the right to bear arms. This is of course irreconcilable with your silly notion that state and local governments are not prohibited by the First Amendment, even after the incorporation of that amendment, from infringing on free exercise of religion.

TL;DR: It's obvious that you're just making **** up as you go along, and you're doing it badly.

Michael, that's an interesting opinion although I disagree with your assessment. The First Amendment makes clear that "Congress shall make no law". The Second Amendment does not make that distinction and makes clear that [the right] "shall not be infringed".

Well, technically it could be reasonable to interpret it that way, because the first amendment and the second amendment are not the same thing, and are not stated the same way. I'm pretty sure supreme court rulings would imply that the first amendment should be applied to states as well, though I can't back this up at the moment, it wouldn't be the first time the supreme court made a ruling not fully based on the constitution. The first amendment states that CONGRESS shall make no law..., whereas the second amendment states that the peoples' right shall not be infringed (by anyone, ever, being the implication).

Umm, I'm p retty sure that quoting the Qur'an makes him Muslim about as much as quoting my electrical engineering textbook makes me a qualified engineer.

Whenever Mike Mac gets into "legal mode" I always think of Old Man Waterfall

His books are amazing.



I'm jealous. Also Yay Nerdfighteria infiltrating Massassi.

I'm actually in one of the groups of people saying "Hi!" to Hank after he'd been to britland but I'm blocked in the video by a tree or a sign or something.

Guys i tout he be of de communist religeon!

The giant chicken was always a better lawyer. But not as good as Bob Loblaw.

Pretty much sums it up.

agreed. and saying things like "My muslim faith" doesn't make him muslim either. *rolleyes* Also he refers to the Koran as the "Holy" Koran. Show me an atheist that calls the bible the "holy" bible. They don't.


(not where he says "my muslim faith")


(Here's the full clip from that ABC interview. Judge yourself whether he's telling the truth. I believe he made a Freudian slip by saying "my Muslim faith" then went on to lie and try and spin it.)

Confirmation bias.

Actually, compared to a lot of TAs...

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -George W. Bush

Here's the full quote from that speech. Judge yourself whether he's telling the truth. I believe he made a Freudian slip by saying "neither do we" then went on to lie and try and spin it.

I could show you a non practicing christian who does. Close enough for you?

I think after Bush and Palin it's pretty obvious that people like you don't value diplomacy. I understand that, and I accept that you believe it's inappropriate for the US president to use honorifics, bow before sovereigns or kiss hands.

I think after Bush and Palin it's pretty obvious that people like you shouldn't say one ****ing mongoloid word when somebody misspeaks, even if it's plausibly a "Freudian slip."

And this is the most intellectually ****ing dishonest and cowardly thing anybody can ever say.

Look, I'm not saying Sarn_Cadrill drinks gasoline while watching Glenn Beck. I'm just showing the facts. Judge it for yourself.

Uh huh. This is a stupid argument.

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian.
Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to go to church.

If Obama's some dude who ticks "Christian" on the census and would rather play golf than go to Church on Sunday, he's as Christian as 90% of the American population. I know it's a shock to all of the white baptists who got used to a President who pretends really, really hard, but he's more average American than... oh... Wookie06 and Sarn_Cadrill, for example.

I don't think he's a Muslim. And I think he is marginally Christian, as joncy said, "as 90% of the American population"

God damn, I swear to Odin that this thread better just be a tequila induced dream or I might go ****ing crazy on whoever ****ing made it.

Jon, you know I love ya, but I think you're seriously underestimating the number and devotion of America's Christians. A much larger number take it a lot more seriously than you seem to think. Ever wondered WHY a political candidate in most places has to be christian in order to have a chance?

Edit: Maybe "devotion" is a poor word to use, but I mean that they are sincere and take it seriously. "Go to church or at least feel bad if you don't one weekend" seriously. "Quote the Bible at least once every day or two" seriously.

Bob, most Americans are also two faced enough to not vote for a guy if he doesn't claim to go to church every Sunday, even though they don't do that themselves.

Two-faced implies that there is some kind of malice involved. I think it's more of an "our president should at least be as good as I wish I was" kind of thing.

I agree with that sentiment. The president is supposed to be more then a man.
Otherwise, would people have cared as much about Clinton's shenanigan? (barring his pathetic attempt to deny)

"our president should be at least as good as I wish I wish I was."

The whole thing was inflated way out of proportion by the media and the Republican Party.

The Republicans were actually pissed off at how few Americans cared.

Yeah, and, duh, I actually agree with most of this. Except I'm a conservative and at least a plurality of Americans define themselves as such and, as such, I would appear to have more in common with the "average American" who also, btw, apparently tend to disagree on major issues with the president. That's part of the reason his base is crying for him to act more "overtly Christian". I'm simply stating that I don't think he is "overtly Christian" and you seem to agree with that.

<Obama> "...McCain hasn't talked too much about my muslim faith."
<Sarn> "OMG UR A MUSLIM!"
<Obama> "..."

This sort of misinterpretation always pisses me off. Obama didn't say 'I have muslim faith', he said 'McCain isn't a complete racist tool like you, so he's not speculating about it and trying to use racism to win the election'


It amazes me how quick everyone forgot about Obama's crazy Christian minister. Remember him shouting 'God Damn America'? Yeah, Obama was Christian then when you needed him to be to tie him to that lunatic.

Wookie, you're not conservative. How many times do we have to go over this? You're Republican.

I said I think he's muslim. I never said I think he's a good (devout) muslim. :p

There's a difference between respecting someone's beliefs diplomatically and jumping in head first. Example: If an atheist is friends with a Christian, he might choose to go to church with the Christian, in order to respect his friends beliefs. If he did, he would probably not cause a ruckus. He would probably sit quietly through the service. But he wouldn't participate. He wouldn't go around quoting the service or the bible, and he wouldn't begin referring to the bible as the "Holy Bible".

I never defended Bush or Palin for their slips of the tongue. I don't argue with you that everyone makes mistakes when speaking, especially when speaking publicly or formally. But all the evidence combined is somewhat compelling.

It's not dishonest or cowardly. Dishonest or cowardly would be for me to try and say that I know with 100% certainty that Obama's a Muslim. The only person who knows that for sure, or who will ever know that for sure is Obama himself. Which is why I was very careful to say that "it's my opinion" and you can "choose for yourself what you think" but "here's the facts that lead me to believe how I do". Unlike you, Jon`C, I don't try to push my opinions off as fact.

Also, you analogy is not even close to being effectual, because there is no video of me drinking gasoline or watching Glenn Beck. If there was, I might argue I was "being diplomatic" for all the other gasoline drinkers in the world, or that I didn't know it was gasoline, and my claims just *might* be true. That's why I wouldn't expect anyone to go and say unequivocally that I'm a gasoline-drinking, Glenn Beck-watching dude.

Agreed, but I think you also over-estimate how non-average I am.

I think those videos form very weak evidence in favour of Obama being a muslim.

You have to understand that post-9/11 and the London bombing in 2005, it was ****ing scary for muslims living in our countries. Everyone would be watching them closely in public transport, it was deeply unsettling (I know this from speaking to a muslim colleague). The reaction of Americans and Brits to the attacks also helped reinforce the viewpoint in the muslim world that we're the enemy.

The impression I get from these videos is that Obama is trying to show a deep respect and understanding of muslim culture so that he can convey a message of "hey, you're welcome to live in our country, you're not our enemies". As much as I'd like there to be no religion in the world, I can't disagree with what Obama is doing/has done - he is trying to mend the bridges that broken by both the attacks and the reaction of our citizens to them.

The terrorists want to widen the gap between the cultures, they want to be able to legitimize their cause by making more and more muslims scared to live in western countries. As I see it, Obama is doing his best to undermine this, and I think it's a much better approach than just bombing the **** out of the baddies.

I don't have a problem with most of what you're saying (though I don't really agree with you), except this. Terrorists are *not* trying to widen the gap between theirs and our cultures. They're trying to infiltrate our culture by making us into a Muslim (or at least Muslim-friendly) country. And they're doing a damn good job of it. If you don't believe me, do some research on the Muslim population in America, pre-9/11 and post-9/11. (I wish I had a good graph to illustrate this, but I don't have much time to look. Have to leave for work in like 5 mins.) Hell, look at the simple fact that we elected a President with (at the very least) Muslim roots, and a very Muslim sounding name. I guarantee pre-9/11 that would NOT have happened, even if he *did* go to church every Sunday.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Also.