Spider AL takes the "longest post"-award home.

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Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

Thank you, thank you, I'd like to thank the (Jedi) Academy...

Long posts are important, when you want to be thorough. And you want to make sure there's no possibility of misunderstanding.

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Spider AL
--

I ... wasn't serious, in calling them evil, you know...
At my dad's, though, we do sort of hunt them down... we don't want them nesting in the shed, etc... of course, they'll always be there, it's a battle neither side will win
but it's like trying to kill the ants in your yard. They'll never go away, but you want them gone so you kill as many as you can...

also, in a small pathetic defense for Jin...
you said his fear of spiders was irrational. You DO realize that probably 97% of human fears are irrational, right?

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Do you have stairs in your house?

[This message has been edited by Correction (edited January 03, 2004).]

Why would you want spiders to go away? They'll probably eat the ants. Spiders do not carry disease, unless pressured in an enclosed space they will not even ATTEMPT to bite, they will not be venomous in 99% of cases and even if they are, there are only a few spiders in the WORLD that have venom that can cause more than brief swelling. Spiders are as harmless to humans as any creature on earth. And they eat all the creatures that are MORE harmful. Why would you want them gone, Correction? Because you don't like them? Why don't you like them?

It's irrational, of course. That's why. The world has always suffered from irrationality, I think we each have a responsibility to stamp it out in ourselves.

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Spider AL
--

PS: Of course most human fears are irrational. One should stamp them out, but even if you for some reason VALUE your irrational fears, that doesn't give you the right to take lives because of your irrational fears now, does it.

[This message has been edited by Spider AL (edited January 03, 2004).]

Bees can be around humans more because 1. they're not nocturnal, 2. they don't flee for their lives, 3. they get around more than spiders due to being able to fly.

And no, bees suck. They're just more tolerable than spiders because they have specific flight zones. Stay away from their areas, and they will stay away from you. Spiders however tend to be very nomadic, thus having no specific territory.

Also, if a spider has venom, it can be a threat. Maybe not to life, but still to injury. I'm not just talking about a bite, but the venom from a recluse can cause skin damage. Thus the skin has to be cutoff, and you still have a time-limit.

Let's say you're sleeping in your bed, a spider crawls in through a crack in a wall. You don't have ants, you don't have roaches, there is no real natural food. The spider is being nomadic..but then it crawls on your bed. Your foot is sticking out though, and from the touch of the spider on your ticklish foot you start moving.

The spider takes natural reaction to attack, you're in a deep sleep so you don't feel it. Hours later, you wake up and the venom has spread. No doubt something like that would get your foot amputated.

I really hope you're just having some fun, and not taking this really -that- personally. The only way a spider bite from a venomous spider couldn't be lethal is if you got it treated ASAP. Otherwise who knows. Maybe the spider could've even eaten a diseased bug, like a mosquito beforehand. Well then it would give you a disease, than mixed with it's venom? Could be a bad combination.

Fact is, a spider has no need to be in the home. And for those who are not trained or educated in handling a spider, it is better for them to eliminate the possible threat.

Daddy longlegs are ok though, ugly as sin but ok.

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"We came, we saw, we conquered, we...woke up!"

I hate spiders. I kill spiders. None of your pro-spider hoopla can change that.

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You're entering a world of pain.

Spider Al, the house I live in has spiders. Lots of them. They live in my bed. They bite me at night, leaving huge sores that spurt pus occasionally. I crush these spiders every chance I get.

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The Matrix: Unplugged

Spider AL.. dude, thankyou for making me laugh very, very hard. Your passion and over-reacting is more fun than Jerry Springer on a long weekend!


Okay, now to try and tackle your wild assumptions, crazy acusations, and down right strange comparisons...



Mmmkay.. Right. Where to begin... Okay, there's large debate on the level of intelligence of certain creatures among people, as well as which creatures are self-aware. Humans for one, are self-aware. Dolphins, I've heard, have also been proven (or maybe just theorized) to be self-aware. I think perhaps monkeys and apes are also self-aware, but I'm not sure. Now, I would say in my own opinion that such creatures as dogs and cats are also self aware. I come to the conclusion that if you hurt a dog or a cat, you could see in it's eyes and facial expression that it is in pain. In fact, I would say that you could even feel that it was in pain. You would just know. I remember when my cat got into a fight with another cat, she got badly hurt, and I felt really sad. I could feel her pain. And it made me sad.
Now, this is where you and I disagree. I would say that insects aren't self aware. You, I am going to guess, would say they are. I would justify my reasons by saying they don't have the smarts (read: intelligence) for it. They are creatures of instinct. I'd guess you'd say "They have a brain. They are self aware." Now, neither of us can prove or disprove this, (so please don't try to) so it's only going to end at opinion. Let's try to leave it at that.
Now, why don't I go around killing other creatures for annoying me? Here are the reasons..
In society, if you kill a spider, no body cares. Actually Spider AL, I'd say you're the first person I've ever encountered in my entire life that actually cares. Everyone else probably doesn't care because there are so many of them. Others wouldn't care because they don't think that spiders are at all self-aware, and wouldn't realize they're about to be killed. Their danger instinct would just kick in, and they'd know to run. Most would say they didn't know why they were running. They just knew they had to.
And in my opinion, I feel that a spider doesn't have any feelings, no intelligence [greater than raw instinct] so when I killed all those spiders, I never felt I was hurting any of them. I don't like to hurt anything. I do believe in euthanasia. I wouldn't just kill a person because they piss me off because I've been brought up to respect the lives of other people, and yes, living things. But, my family kills spiders, as does everyone I know. I can see in a life in a cats eyes, as can everyone else I know. I look into a spiders eyes and I don't see anything, and I don't feel anything. I can't see it being any different from a simple robot built of calculations and pre-defined controls. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it's the way I am, and trying to change that would be like trying to teach a spider to read. You just can't do it.



Firstly, I never admitted my reasons to be idiotic. I admitted them to be "laughable" as in "could appear trivial to others". I don't think my reasons are at all "idiotic", as a large percentage of MAN KIND also share this irrational fear. But, to some this might appear odd and trivial. But certainly not "idiotic."

Secondly, you say spiders don't like wet places? Why do I get spiders crawling down the wall into the shower, while I'm in there? With the water running? Surely they'd know it was wet, right? They don't like moving places? Then why do they crawl on me, when I'm obviously moving? They don't like LIVING places? Then what's up with this? It can happen, and it has happened.



No not literally, you dolt. It's an expression. Ugh, some people.. Thanks for proving you take things to seriously.



A dog could potentionally do more harm not resulting in death. Better? I know a dog isn't just going to bite me for no reason. And a dog wouldn't have any reason to. And if it thought I was a threat, it would bark at me. Thats what dogs do. They try and scare you off. I may not like dogs, but I treat them as I'd treat another human being. A spider, on the other hand, may bite me simply for being near it. It's not going to warn me or anything. It's instinct is "Too close. Danger. Bite." A dog can make the descision between like and dislike, based on expereince. A spider can't.



Yeah, right. I'm going to sit over $3000 worth of equipment outside, under the hot sun, and damage the equipment. No, wait, maybe I'll take it outside at night, and let it get filled with moisture and damage all the equipment.



hehe.. A "girlie girl"? Riiight..
I never tortured any spiders. I would say tourturing them would have been slicing small parts of their legs off, and perhaps cooking them in a fry pan on a low heat. I just put them underwater. They wouldn't have felt any pain, or even known what the hell was going on. They would have just "fell asleep".

Oh, and it's lovely of you to insult me with your wild assumptions. Real mature.
Oh, and you have some inconsistency in your arguments. You sound like I should be treating spiders like they are humans, yet you say you have to remove them from your house because of squeamish visitors? So, you're infact siding with the squeamish human, who you feel has an irrational fear of the creature? Heh.. now who's the hypocrite?



No, you're not.



Which is exactly what I do. It's just that our opinions of hazards differ. And I wish you would realize this, and stop acting like you are somehow all right and superior to me.



Um..
Yeah, I get bored. As do millions of people. Next you're going to say I play GTA, and then go a mass killing spree. Uh huh. Brilliant! A MASS KILLING SPREE OF SPIDERS! BWUAHHAHAHA! I wonder if I'd get arrested for that? *ponders*



There's no need to force your beliefs onto me, either.



Haha, no.



When the hell did I say anything about taxi cabs?! I know a spider could hurt me, period. Stop arguing that. Or have you forgotten that people have died from spider bites in the past?



LMAO! I admire your creativity.
Yeah, I know the choking on a spider thing is nonsense. I did a google search, and found it's never happened before, and the chances are extremely slim. But damn, that Michael Jackson bit is just too damn funny.



Now, I never said that I thought it was right for me to kill spiders because it doesn't affect the ecosystem. I simply said that because you said it did. In fact, you said it right here -

And comparing killing a few spiders to murdering people I can understand, I guess... but child molestation?! You think killing spiders is as bad as that?! Now that is irrational.



You havn't proven anything, aside from that you seem to feel spiders are Gods, or something..



Erm, no. You took that out of context.
The burning of fossil fuels pollutes our planet. It is damaging the atmosphere (the ozone layer) and causing this thing called the "greenhouse effect." Now, what this is doing is slowly raising the temperature of the planet. The pollution is also slowly making the air unbreathable. It's also polluting out water ways, making the water undrinkable. Now, this pollution, as I see it, affects every living thing on the planet. Now, unless you are currently using a sloar powered generator, you are aiding in the destruction of our entire planet. You know what this means? This means that the pollution from burning these fossil fuels will kill more spiders than 100 of me ever could. I wasn't trying to absolve responsibility of what I'd done, I was simply trying to point out that as you are reading this, you are infact aiding in the death of every single living thing on the entire planet. And only few seem to care about this. I must admit, I'm not one that cares. But surely you can see that by me killing a nest of huntsmen spiders is really quite insignificant to other things. Now, I'm not saying that you should stop caring - I seriously do admire your passion. I'm just saying that there are more urgent matters that could use your attention..



Meh. I own a copy, but I only got up the 4th level before I got tired of it. MP is definately it's strong point, IMO.



I wouldn't kill you.. I like you. I'm quite enjoying this little debate, and I like hearing your opinions. But maybe a little less hostility towards me..
(God knows I probably deserve it, though.. )

And please don't assume that just because I kill some spiders that I'm some sort of psychopath who'd.. "slit a kittens throat"... (oh that makes me skin crawl just typing it..)



Yeah, that also disgusts me. I can't believe you could even think that.. I mean my God, man..
I explained this above, anyhoo.




I'm amazed at you. I'm a lot of things, and I've certainly been called a lot of things, but I'm certainly not a sadist. I'll admit I watch Australia's Funniest Home Video Show, but I could certainly never hurt anyone.. I can't believe that you would put me on the level of a person that would.. "microwave kittens"...
How do you even make any friends? I mean, it's impossible for anyone to have NEVER killed a single thing in their life. Ever walked on grass before? Well, you've probably killed ants, bees, and even spiders. I would assume nothing in your house is made of wood, either? Cutting down trees and processing the wood is surely going to kill a few spiders. Ever vacumed your carpet? Heck, that's a few more insects you've killed, too. Now who's no better than the guy who microwaves kittens?

/me takes a bow

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"When all else fails, eat pie."
-¬thoughts from beyond observance

Go read Charlotte's Web.

I don't like spiders, so I tend to roll a piece of paper into a scoop and put the spider outside.

( http://www.snopes.com/photos/brownrecluse.asp - ew ew ew don't look at this page ew ew ew )

You know, you don't have to be asleep to swallow a spider...


This one time, I was with my friend and some girls. And he's weird. So we were walking along, sat down on a picnic table/bench. My friend sees a dead spider on the table, thought it would be cool to freak the girls out.

Puts the dead spider in his mouth. Grosses everyone out.

To his supprise, it wasn't dead.

Got lodged in his throat, and he couldn't cough it out, so he has to drink some mountain dew and swallow it.


Just goes to show you kids,

Don't put things in your mouth unless you intend to eat it.

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"Did you just say.....Birthday Party?...."

Now, Spider AL, give the award back to Jin. Thank you.

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Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

I say they have a cage match for it.....a cage match with SPIDERS.

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You're entering a world of pain.

Jedigreedo:

You've just given me a bunch of reasons why bees are around humans which they are anyway. Duh. You've given me no reasons why bees should get preferential treatment. As to point no.1, neither are all spiders nocturnal. No.2, a bee will flee attack, and sting when attacked, just as a spider will flee attack and bite when attacked. That is to be expected. No.3, What possible relevance does a bee's range have to the argument over why spiders are so universally and IRRATIONALLY hated?

You are inaccurate. You should say that SOME spiders are nomadic. Most spiders have a very small and defined territory, you have shown that you have no knowledge of spiders in general thank you very much and good day.

You have mentioned this ONE type of spider, the Violin spider Loxosceles. It is one of the few dangerous breeds of spider in the world... Though rarely fatal for all that. It is NOT THE SPIDER THAT JIN WAS DEALING WITH. JIN was dealing with Huntsman spiders which Jin was perfectly aware were HARMLESS, now go away and think of a more pertinent argument, ranting on about the perils of Loxosceles won't do you any good here.

You obviously know little or nothing... there are a HANDFUL of types of spider in the world that can cause serious harm to a full-grown human, barring heart conditions, old age or infancy, and the VAST MAJORITY of those bitten SURVIVE. Spiders are NOT some great predator of humans no matter what you've been told by the grim and serious good ol' boys in the local bar. The flu scares me more, and with good reason.

REGARDLESS of all that, you're missing the point fumblingly. GRATUITOUSLY. Jin butchered a nest of harmless baby Huntsman spiders. That was wrong. You should realise this. And the moral distinction associated with it.

TimeWolfOfThePast: That statement makes you out to be an unpleasant and amoral individual, comparable to Jin.

Jin:

It would no doubt make you more comfortable in yourself to believe that what you did wasn't a big deal. That it wasn't important. Well everyone who abuses animals wants to think that. Some even delude themselves into believing it, poor ignorant souls.

Prove it.

No, go on, prove that you are self-aware. Prove that a dog is self-aware. Prove that a spider is self-aware. Do you even know what self-awareness is? Self-awareness cannot be proven, because all the signs we use to divine whether something is self-aware are simple nervous responses elaborated to the nth degree. What is the difference between a human saying "CRAP!" when they're burned, and a dog crying out when it's burned, and a spider recoiling and running away when it's burned? No difference.

YOU must give spiders the benefit of the doubt.

As for intelligence, well I have my doubts about yours, but I don't imagine that that gives me the right to take your life. Do you go around beating up on mentally handicapped children, if intelligence is so important in your estimation of worth? Hypocrisy.

Hahaha, I'm sure the slavers said that about the African people they abducted and brought to our shores. "Oh nobody will miss a few. Plenty more where they came from." That was amoral to the HIGHEST degree of what we understand amorality to be.

Is what you did a moral act? Certainly not. Was it selfish, irrational, violent, sadistic, and unnecessarily damaging to creatures who posed NO DANGER TO YOU? Yes. Resoundingly affirmative.

How self-absorbed and closed-minded. If something can't shout at you, you don't give a crap, do you. Well most species on earth don't have any form of vocal communication. No doubt you wouldn't feel bad about bashing a mute to death.

Oh I suppose you're too old to change.

YOU HAVEN'T EVEN TRIED, you know NOTHING about the species you're prepared to butcher wholesale! READ! Learn about them! You have a responsibility. You're already an amoral and irresponsible irrational being, the fact that you have the responsibility to change as well as the power to do so is equally self-evident.

You may not realise it, but there are hundreds of spiders in and around you every day. Spiders seeking mates may slip in wet conditions, thus they come to your attention while you're in the shower. But spiders cannot breathe without air, they cannot survive when submerged in water (except one or two VERY ingenious aquatic species, and only then for brief periods) So you tell ME why they'd want to enter a wet place? No answer? Thank you.

Hahah, If you'd meant trivial you would have used the word. The word laughable means: Causing or deserving laughter or derision. I don't laugh at small things, I laugh at stupid things. I laugh at your silly irrationality, and I deride it because it is nonsense. Regardless of whether you MEANT to or not, you basically confirmed that everything you're defending is meaningless imaginary drivel, as you continue to do.

lol Thank you for proving that you are one of those people. Faux naivete is my forte, you should learn to recognise it, especially when signposted as mine is.

A dog could easily kill you if its bite severed any one of the five major arteries that are close to skin level. Once again you prove that your greater fear of spiders over dogs is irrational. Thank you. And spiders will not bite unless provoked either. One can hold venomous spiders and they will not bite. One must prod them or handle them roughly to cause them to bite. A pair of common gloves is a good defence against this. Once again you assist me to prove that your options were many, and that you chose the option of slaughtering the entire nest for no good reason.

Don't be foolish, I do not harm spiders. You harm spiders. I have to PUT UP WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU. I have to make you feel comfortable when you visit my family. YOU are the ones who give me more work to do, not the spiders. The spiders are fine.

And you show me one instance where I tell you to treat spiders like humans. On the contrary I think you should treat human intruders in your home more harshly, oh, because the humans could actually do some harm to you.

Huh, yeah, I fear things that might actually harm me. You fear things that might crawl on you ARGH! OMG OMG! That's how we differ: I am rational, you are irrational, and you revenge yourself on spiders for the fear that you yourself have created in your mind. Spiders don't MAKE you afraid, YOU make yourself irrationally afraid. Well done.

I thought the whole point of this discussion was to point out that your actions were immoral and as such INFERIOR. NEGATIVE. I've proven that. If that makes me superior so be it, but it certainly makes me right, and you wrong.

No it couldn't.

Not from a nest of baby huntsman spiders, I think you'll find. Duh.

Once again you prove that you're an unrepentant, delusional individual whose entire argument is based on self-created irrational fears.

Your comprehension is poor, Jin. Show me where I said that murdering people or molesting children was AS BAD as killing spiders, and I'll show you where your powers of READING have gone AWRY.

Burglary is insignificant when compared to mass murder. DOES THAT MAKE BURGLARY RIGHT? No? QED, you have been proven wrong once again. Any relative insignificance of the moral offense that you perceive is no excuse for that moral offence.

That means not only that you're cruel to animals, but hypocritical in your selectiveness, and delusional about the reasons behind it.

Well I'm enjoying to expose you for what you are through simple logical proofs, and since I have no time for animal cruelty, you can take that request for cessation of hostility and place it somewhere at your discretion.

You wanted to burn the spiders you said. Burning a nest of spiders, microwaving a kitten... What's the difference? You can't prove the sentience of a kitten. And cats are merely pets, they don't perform the service in the ecosystem- that you set so much store by- that spiders do.

Oh that is accidental, no more intentional than your immune system killing billions of microbes. What YOU DID was intentional and yes, sadistic. Sadism is unnecessary, is it not? What you did was unnecessary too.

What gets me most of all Jin, and I'll be honest with you here, is that you butchered a whole nest of baby spiders for no good reason, and then you came on here looking for SYMPATHY with your mournful post title. It's absolutely reprehensible. I think you're a very bad person indeed. I've put forward many reasons why, and I've logically disproven all your defences with exactly comparable analogy and logical discussion of moral principles. You have no defence. You're unrepentant, but don't have the unmitigated gall to pretend to be a nice person.

TimeWolfOfThePast & gothicX I'd welcome your input if you had anything to add to the debate. And feel free to muck about and have fun, naturally, but unless you have anything directly relating to the discussion this will be my only response to your messages, that goes for anyone else who posts. Don't take it as me ignoring you, think of it more as me focussing on the meat of the debate. heh heh.

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Spider AL
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Urgh. Do not click that link if you want to keep your last few meals.

And AL, it's a spider. They sit around and eat stuff. Or walk about and scare people. There are also lots of them. Probably a few billion. Killing about 50 to 100 of 'em is nothing. That's because of the lack of sentience. Kill 50-100 sentient beings, and your a*** (Brit spelling, BTW...) is toast.

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Yeah, but you know what? This one, this one right here, this was my dream, my wish, and it didn't come true. So I'm takin' it back. I'm takin' 'em all back.

Stupidest. Flames. Ever.

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C:\Dos C:\Dos\Run Run\Dos\Run

Spider AL, if killing a spider in my home makes me a murderer, than so be it. I feel absolutely zero remorse in killing a spider. Feel free to spout your pro-spider propoganda all you want. I'm not buying it, and I will continue to protect myself from those evil monstrosities.

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Common Sense: It Will Take You Far In Life

Tony:

Killing about fifty to a hundred cats is nothing then. A hundred sharks. A hundred whales. Killing you. What difference do YOU make? Your hypocrisy is frighteningly blatant.

Prove that I'm sentient. That you're sentient. That a dog is sentient. Now prove that a cat is not sentient. That a monkey is not sentient. That a spider is not sentient.

You can't disprove sentience and PROVING it is fraught with assumptions and pro-experimental propagandaspeak anyway. I'm alive. You're alive. That's why I don't want to kill you. Spiders are alive. That's why I won't kill them unless I have to. Jin didn't have to. You don't have to. Get real d00d, cut through your own defensiveness and see the truth: Without absolute proof that spiders are merely flesh robots AND absolute proof that humans AREN'T merely flesh robots, you have no moral right to needlessly kill spiders.

So if you do, that makes you immoral. QED.

(edit)

Omnesolis: If you're not worried about whether you're a good, moral person or not as you seem to claim not to be, then only the law aka. fear of punishment can stop you doing evil things. That's fine, society is full of sociopaths.

As for spiders being evil, you're silly and delusional. Good day.

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Spider AL
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[This message has been edited by Spider AL (edited January 03, 2004).]

I would argue that spiders are sentient. They tend to live alone, so as a result they can't rely on community intelligence in the way that ants can (ants being stupid whilst ant colonies are clever). As a result they have to rely on their own perceptions of everything around them, not just pheromone trails like ants.

Id like to sum all this up in a a paragraph.

JI|\|: O|\/|F9 I R |<1ll th3 5P1|)er!!!!1111

Spider Al: I r have spider in me name, so i r spider fan with my big spider man collection. Killing spiders is bad and will kill them all by killing one spider cause they will be like "omfg <other spider friend name here> is dead" /suicide

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C:\Dos C:\Dos\Run Run\Dos\Run

Fine, so Spider AL gets his award back.

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Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

Sweet Baby Jesus... this thread has hit rock bottom. I can't even judge if you're being serious, just joking, or a complete and utter half-wit.


The whole bit with you half-quoting everything I say to suit yourself is irritating, but I'll leave it at that.



Now this comment seriously made me laugh out loud. If this doesn't show you are arguing with my just for the hell of arguing, then I don't know what will..

Anyways, definition time -
Noun: self-awareness
1. Awareness of your own individuality

I am aware that phisically, I am individual in that my phisical appearence is unique. I am aware that I have the ability to make my own descisions, I am aware of my own place in the world, I am aware that I have a name, I am aware that I have parents that gave birth to me, and yes, I am aware of the people around me. There you go, undoubtable proof I am self-aware. Proof that I shouldn't even have to state, but it seems you require things to be spelled out for you, so I guess that's understandable.

I never said it was proven that dogs or any other animal (except for maybe a dolphin) is self-aware. Actually, come to think of it, you can call a dog's name, and they will come to you, right? Wouldn't that mean the dog recognizes that is has a name? Wouldn't that mean it was self-aware? Hrm, I've never seen a spider go to someone when you call it's name... How intriguing.. (Although I guess spiders probably don't have ears then.. Hrm. Well, can't say much more to that.)



Haha, no.



For ****s sake.. Are you that desperate that you have to not only insult me, but then once again make another idiotic comparison? Lighten up, man. Geez.



Tuché.



Again with the moralities and name calling.. I'm really getting tired of this, so I'm going to just throw something in to irritate you - I was very, very pleased once I knew they were all dead and out of my home. I think what I did was okay, you think it was on the level of various disgusting crimes against children, kittens and disabled people. I can't change your opinion, and you can't change mine. Next time I kill a bug, I'm going to be thinking of you.



Did I not cover this before? The whole thing about humans and insects? You're not really reading this are you? La la la la la la la. It's not about vocal communication, AND STOP MAKING STUPID COMPARISIONS. Geez, from what I've read, I think YOU'VE got some issues about violence towards people.. Anger management, maybe?



Heh, nah. Definately not too old. I just know I don't need to.



I have a responsibility to learn about spiders? Riiight.. I don't think so.



What the hell? You didn't even address my point.. I asked you why a spider would crawl down the wall into the shower, and you answer that with the same question directed at me? Honestly.. that's the most childish thing I've ever seen.



Ugh.. Okay, so you don't a sense of humor. Okay, I'll remember that in future. This whole debate is stupid, but you seem to be more egar to argue with me than laugh. I'm laughing a whole lot at this stupid argument. See, that's where you forget the difference between opinion and definition. I think maybe you should learn that other people have different opinions than you, and perhaps try to be more tollerant of that. Hmmm?



Uh. Huh. You remind me of one of those stuck up rich folk. The real annoying kind that never admit when they're wrong, and will argue a point to dire death, untill they have nothing left but petty insults and contradiction.



I spider could bite me on my neck, causing to swell up and block of my air way, causing me to die. Uh huh, I'm pretty sure that justifies a fear of spiders.



I never said you harmed spiders. I'm just saying that if you think spiders are just as important as humans, why do you bother to have human friends? Surely you can hang out with your spider buddies and do lots of cool things. Why do you put up with "people like us"? Why do you even bother to make life comfortable for "us" by removing the spiders from your home? You know we're just going to kill them anyways. Make up your mind. Who's more important? Your human friends, or your spider friends?



You've stated lots of bizzare things that I apparently do to various animals. You've accused me of bashing a mute, killing a disabled person, microwaving kittens, slitting their throats, bashing dogs, and hanging cats by their genitaela. Obviously you're making these assumptions because I killed a few spiders. Well, I'm making the assumption that you feel spiders are on par with humans.
And I never said how I would treat a human intruder in my home. So, lets hear how to feel I should treat them. Wait a second.. you just said I should treat humans harshly! YOU SADIST!!



It has been established that spiders can not only harm me, but also every other human on the planet. Of course not all spiders post a poisones threat, but it's never easy to instantly tell what kind of spider you're dealing with. In fact, in Australia there is a spider which looks almost exactly like a huntsmen spider, except that it's venomous. Venoumous to humans, at that. Now, personally I can't tell the difference between the two, and I wouldn't know how to. Even as a precautionary measure, I'd say it would be safe to kill a huntsmen, for fear it may be it's venomous counter-part.



Sorry son, but the whole point of this thread was for me to share an unfortunate expereince with the rest of the gang here, so we could all have a good laugh at my own misfortune. I simply posted this as entertainment for the people here. You were the one that decided to turn this thread into a rediculous debate about the rights of spiders. You havn't proven anything, you've only supplied your ludicrous opinions.



Erm, it could.



I was talking of spiders in general. I never singled out the huntsmen.



Haha, I'm amazed you even have human friends!



You made the comparisions. If you didn't think they were as bad, why would you compare them to killing spiders? Geez, you can't even follow your own arguments.



What the hell?



I never said I wanted to burn the spiders. I merely said I considered it, as a means to rid myself of the disgusting creatures (ooh, now I'm just trying to piss you off. haha)
And you say that because cats are "merely" pets they are suddenly not as important as spiders? Well, at first I just thought you were defending animals. Now I know you have a bias towards spiders.



So because it's accidental, that makes it right? So I suppose you accidently vacume your carpet? Is it even necessary to vacume your carpet? Well, I'll feel a whole lot better about resting my feet on my hard wood coffee table! After all, it was only an accident!!



HAHA! I was never looking for sympathy, you dolt. I was simply sharing a story that I thought everyone would find humourous. I really don't care if you think I'm a bad person. I think you belong in a psychiatric ward.



And I'm sure you'll be certain to only use anything that helps your side of the debate.

Meh. This is really sad. I mean, REALLY sad.
*sigh*


[edit]
And I must say, I think Nauree said it best. heh


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"When all else fails, eat pie."
-¬thoughts from beyond observance

[This message has been edited by Jin (edited January 03, 2004).]

AL, you are taking everything out of context.

First of all, only humans are sentient.

Animals such as cats, dogs, sharks, or whatever are much higher life forms than spiders.

There is no point in "rescuing" every damn little bug just because, "Awww poor thing is helpless". Things die in nature, it happens, but thats the cycle of life my friend. If you can't grasp that, then you're screwed.

And there is no way you can say that killing a spider is the same as killing a person or dog. The only thing you've proven is how blatently clueless you are about the food chain.

Some animals are more easily killed then others. I think there's a reason for that. Could it be that it is not as significant if one dies than the other.


I myself don't have a problem with catching a spider in a jar, and tossing it outside, but in Jin's case, he did the right thing.

It's either us, or them. And I prefer us.

So stop flaming everyone who disagrees with your childish ways.

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"Did you just say.....Birthday Party?...."

Gah, go fight over that award yourselves now.

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Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

Nauree tears up gothicX's award.

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C:\Dos C:\Dos\Run Run\Dos\Run

Ok, Spider Al, give it a rest.

You like spiders, a LOT, if your name and arguement are any evidence. Your opinion is obviously quite slanted in favor of spiders, which puts you in a group of one.

You want proof that humans are self aware? That's all anyone thinks about - themselves. It's true. You're only posting this because of your own bias in favor of spiders and you know it.

As for killing spiders, boo hoo. Jaiph and his wife know for a fact that there's more spiders in the world than can ever be killed by boot or book or vacuum.

Some would argue that I'm a monster because I eat many creatures. You, as a worshipper of a carnivore, can understand that it's ok to kill things for food.

You think Jin is a monster for killing hundreds of baby spiders, yet you more than likely have the blood of hundreds of animals no your proverbial hands. What's the difference? The ecosystem can replace them fast enough. If spiders (or any other species for that matter) had a 100% survival rate, it'd screw up the world every bit as badly as if spiders went extinct.

If you're both an avid spider lover and a devout vegetarian, you have way too many opinions for your own good and you should reassess your life.

[edit] Hell, I know this won't stop you. You're going to pick apart my post and read between the lines and come up with counters to my arguements.

You know what? This isn't even about spiders. It's about you crapping your opinion down Chikyu-jin's throat and why you should stop.

Chikyu-jin doesn't like spiders and he never will, and nobody cares a damned bit if you do or not. Stop trying to convince him.

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Duel Zero : Released the beta. Probably the end of it. Not to worry though, I'm working on Randsaber, which is a lot better.

[This message has been edited by Checksum (edited January 03, 2004).]

spidey al..YOU NEED A FRIGGING LIFE!!!if you can run around yelling at people for killing spiders.ive killed 169 estimated spiders in my life and im only 11 yrs old WOW IM AN INSANE SERIAL KILLER!!I KILLED SOME SPIDERS!!put in your insane jail ok?in your perfect world a spider killed is 100 yrs in jail.your the cinda person who says the movie movie 8 legged freaks is a insult to the world.what if a black widow killed me now? youd be happy because i killed 169 of em. spiders are the kind od kife forms who dont care if there family member dies the just are born then they mate then they die.what are you anyway?spider man gone insane? ill see you in the nuthouse bud.

p.s i emailed the nuthouse so..wait for the white suites in black cars to arrive MWA MWAHAHA MWAHAHAHA MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH1!!


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janitor bobs idea of rogers video: He's actually the overweight guy next door who has a HUGE selection of videos, including the entire Lethal Weapon, Halloween, and 'Ernest' series.
The advantage is is that you can 'borrow' movies for long amounts of time without him remembering that you borrowed them.

The disadvantage is the pizza cheese grime on the DVDs

The loss of Large animals (higher life forms) in Small numbers (less population) is GREATLY more significant than the loss of Small animals (lower life forms) in large numbers (bigger population).

Basically, you cannot say that killing a spider is the same as killing a dog or shark or whale.

A Human has a much more important job than a spider. So it makes humans more valuable.

And there are ALOT more spiders than humans, so basically, there are more backup spairs of spiders. Another reason why the death of spiders is less significant than the death of a human or higher life form.

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"Did you just say.....Birthday Party?...."

I know this wasn't directed at me, but in response to it...

Despite the fact that most spiders will not bite me, and even if they did, it wouldn't do that much damage, it is still an incoveniance I wish to avoid. Spiders were not created to live inside, more specifically inside my house. Because of this, I will kill them if I find them in my house, the place where I live. If spiders took the time to build their own houses then I'd tollerate that, but I like to keep my personal space. You can think of me as the grumpy old man sitting on his porch with a shotgun. If you tresspass on my land(i.e. my house) when I don't want you on it, you will be shot. It may be wrong, but it is the way things operate. Sure, spiders can kill things that are more harmful, but I don't want the more harmful things in my house either. Sure, dogs are more harmful, but it is a risk I am willing to take because dogs provide me with companionship. Spiders do not.

As it is, you will probably somehow 'thwart' my arguement, but as a whole this is all a stalemate in terms of arguing. Neither camp will give up. So, we should probably just stop it all before it turns towards insults and such.

Did you say ANT?!?!


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Member of the Minneassian Council

Bees don't get preferential treatment, they're just reacted to differently. A bee is only on a mission to get honey, not seeking victims. Bees and spiders have nothing in common, so I really fail to see the logic behind your comparing them.

Obviously you're always told to be careful around bees. You're usually told to just calmly tread around them, and they don't even notice you. They have no reason to.

I know not all spider nocturnal, but it's the main trait among the vast majority.

Since when has a bee fleed attack? When a bee gets the presence of danger it makes an immediate attack.



... You really missed the point completely. A bee's range is significant because it won't go into your houses from every little crack. It doesn't have reason to, it stays on it's own course. Then again bees are colonial, they have no reason to be nomadic except for the Queen. And no doubt a Queen being a threat is a very, very, very rare thing.



"Spiders tend to be nomadic" I didn't say they all were. Spiders tend to be, meaning some are. I know not all species of them are the same, however we are not talking about those species. Why? Because they don't come around as much. We're talking about the species that ARE nomadic.

I know most spiders have a defined territory, but they tend to MOVE it. Even a trapdoor spider will find a new spot to prey, and they're probably the least nomadic. This will lead them to come within a human's area. And yes, I have actually seen a trapdoor spider make it's trap in a human populated area. It was right next to the stairs of a house, that's just asking for trouble.



There's alot more than a few, bub. The fiddleback is notorious to my region, as is the wolf spider and the black widow. All very dangerous, and nomadic. That's just for my region. I know there are tons of regions with their own dangerous breeds of spiders.

You meaning ranting about how recluses started nesting in an Oklahoma jail, resulting in the death of inmates is useless? Wow, glad you cleared that up for me.



Well....duh. Whoever mentioned that spiders are the great predators of humans if full of it. They ARE a threat though. Just like farmers have rights to kill coyotes going after their livestock, there is no wrong with killing a potentially dangerous spider in your own home.

Why would I listen to anyone in a bar? I don't even drink. More like, I've read books on vast species of spiders. And theres a little more than a handful of dangerous ones, kiddo.



They had no reason to be there, if he hadn't of killed them they would've taken over his house, thus leading to them becoming a danger of him. I know they aren't venomous, but what if he got repeated bites over times? They could get easily infected, and enough of them could be very harmful. Just look at ants, sure one bite from an ordinary ant is nothing. But what happens if you're swarmed?



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"We came, we saw, we conquered, we...woke up!"

What you want him to do? Consider them as a family?

I don't they want to leave their nest to walk outside...

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Snail racing: (500 posts per line)
----@%

Jin: I think it hit rock bottom from the moment you started seeking sympathy for being FORCED to destroy a whole bunch of animals who weren't going to harm you, because they were CREEPY!!!111

So from the very start then.

Hmm. Ask yourself three questions: Is Spider AL a halfwit? Second, could Spider AL possibly take such a self-obsessed person as Jin totally seriously at all times, and third... Does my bum look big in this?

I only quote fully formed sentences. You said it, don't come crying to me if it comes back to bite you in the buttocks.

Hah, no. I really shouldn't expect you to get this, but here you go... The question of self-awareness and the ramifications thereof have confounded not only scientists who are notorious- like Jin- for stating their opinions as if they were fact, in lieu of actual logical argument, but also philosophers, for generations. How does one know whether another human is self-aware or not? They tell you that they think they are. But what does it actually MEAN that they think they are self-aware?

Let me put it this way. You can record yourself stating "I am self aware". When played back, does the sound signify that the tape recorder has achieved self-awareness? Of course not.

Likewise one could teach a parrot to repeat those words. Does that prove that the parrot is self-aware? No? Why not? What is that you say, the words have no intrinsic meaning for a parrot? Okay.

Let's take a stupid person. A really stupid person. A stupid person cannot articulate that he or she is self aware. Such words would have no meaning for the stupid person. Obviously however, the stupid person is the same as us, but if they cannot vocalise the state of their ego in the same way that we can. So how are we to prove that they are self-aware?

We can't. In point of fact, I can't prove that you're self-aware. It's the old response to stimuli question. Is what the person says indicative of their internal psychological state, or is it merely by rote repetition of what the examiner wishes to hear? In other words, parroted sounds?

What about the old "get the creature to look in a mirror, and if it recognises itself, it's self aware." What tosh. If your parents/foster parents/friends/guardians had never taught you WHAT a mirror is, how would you know? How would you interpret the reflection. Would you even have any INTEREST in your own image? Feral children, as human as you and I certainly have trouble with concepts like this and language too. Are they not self-aware then? Is not self-awareness innate to humanity?

In any case, scientists have never even been able to prove the existence of self-awareness as a concrete actuality.

What am I? I'm a human, sitting here typing things into a computer. But does my ability to DESCRIBE myself as others see me mean that I have some innate internal understanding of myself and my ego that other animals do not possess, or am I merely describing myself by rote? Am I parroting? You can't prove so, or otherwise. Please try, you'll amuse us further.

***

You say:

Well that's a fundamental error right there, when you call the dog's name, he might think "That's me!" Or he might merely come to you on reflex since the last time you called him, you gave him a sausage. One cannot prove either.

Now, you have admitted to being disgusted at the idea of killing kittens, puppies whatever. You have FAILED to provide logical proof of the difference between killing a group of baby cats and killing a group of baby spiders. Therefore logically you should be ashamed of yourself, recognising yourself to be a hypocrite, and one which has committed a sadistic act. QED.

Ah well it was obvious in implication, but I suppose I'll have to sound out the vowels... Spiders don't survive in water. So why would a spider seek out the shower? The answer is, he wouldn't seek out the shower. So why is he there? Accident. Spiders end up in baths. Why? Accident. They don't say "I'm gonna have a bath!" do they now? Be serious Jin. You really do believe they're out to get you, don't you. lol

Oh you do. Whether you shoulder it or not, you have a responsibility to learn about the creatures you've decided to arbitrarily exterminate.

Once again you make yourself appear to be a village idiot. I have not stated that you have done anything to animals except killing a large number of defenceless, harmless spiders, because that is all I can prove, it is all you have admitted. Clear?

I didn't compare the act of molesting children to the act of killing spiders. Show us where I did, and I shall show you your glaring mistake. Good day.

Sorry, you're wrong again. Tch. Show me where I said that spiders are as important as humans please?

lol, sometimes people make it all too easy...

Ooh, class prejudice . Ignorance: The gift that keeps on giving. lol

Some people are of the opinion that when a woman says no, she must mean yes. I don't think anyone here would admit publically that they are "tolerant" of such an opinion.

Likewise I will not tolerate your damaging, ignorant opinion, I will fight it publically.

Uh, barring an allergy, it'd have to jump down your throat for that to happen. And as you yourself have admitted, that's not going to happen. Thank you once again for confirming that your fears are irrational, QED.

Oh, and I was under the impression that you were in the US! Gosh, silly me. G'day cobber!

On a serious note, first tell us what spider IS this australian ne'er do well, then realise that this is one small reason why you have the responsibility to learn about spiders. To learn the differences between venomous and non-venomous breeds, so that you won't have to run around in a state of irrational fear, clomping innocent creatures all the time. And don't start with the "I wouldn't have time to look properly," because if you WEREN'T losing your head like a girlie girl, you'd HAVE time.

Oh I'm laughing at you Jin, not with you. Animal abusers aren't normally innately funny, but you manage it somehow. See you on here tomorrow night!

Finally: I'm glad you're so mature. But wait...

They're not out of your home. They're lurking around. You can't get rid of them all, they'll come back... come back... hiding... scuttling! They're watching you... watching you...

heh heh.

Moldy:

Prove it. Oh wait, you can't. Bye then.

Things die in nature, but we have a choice. That's our gift. You want to abuse it that power? Fine. But that makes you immoral.

... That's moronic. Huntsman are not venomous. They rarely bite. What IS your problem? Duh.

Umm, some of the largest animals have the largest global populations... We're fairly prolific in ourselves. And we do significant damage to the ecosystem of the planet... so you think it's okay to kill humans then? It won't have any effect, after all...

Checksum:

And you're biased in favour of humans.

/me scratches his head

Sorry, was what you said supposed to be earth-shattering? Maybe I missed something. Yes, I like spiders. No, I do not prefer spiders to humans, and I try to be even-handed and open-minded, which is something Jin and yourself cannot claim.

The difference is, sonneh, (and I've already explained this at least twice, please read more thoroughly) that killing something for food or clothing has a REASON behind it. If you kill something for no reason, it is mere sadism. QED. You have NO logical argument against that, it's intractible. Ciao.

Kill enough and they'd go extinct. So how many to kill then? hmm let me think... let me dip in the well of logic... OH YES! Let's only kill as many as we NEED to. Jin didn't need to. QED.

I'm not interested in Jin. You prove that you have failed to read ANY of my posts properly, for I have said in EACH of them: I doubt I'll convince Jin, who is too stuck in the mud. I'm here to debate publically so that more open minds will have the benefit of a balanced view.

GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT? I thought not. Siddown.

Grashopper4232:

You are not qualified to tell us what spiders were "CREATED" to do, or where they were "CREATED" to live. I sense a god complex.

Well you're right on the first two counts, I certainly did thwart your argument if one can call it that, your closed-minded little camp won't give in, I never expected them to, but I see no reason to stop. I'm accomplishing my goal, that of providing this petty, self-absorbed excuse for a thread with some public balance.

Jedigreedo:

That IS preferential treatment, mate. As I've stated before you're more likely to die by bee than by spider, and people fear spiders more. IRRATIONALLY. QED.

The majority perhaps, but That's not the issue, the issue is that there are sufficient spiders around our houses in both the day and the night for the difference to be inconsequential . Your point is therefore void.

since I tap a flying bee away with a newspaper and it flees. Simple.

If it builds its nest nearby, your house will be swarming with bees. And as stated before, most spiders are territorial. So you're wrong again.

WRONG, DING DING! the phrase "spiders tend to be" implies that MOST spiders are. That's what you said, that's what was wrong.

Ahahaha "Bub". You're wrong... the female black widows are the most dangerous, and they are territorial, they build webs, they are not what you would call NOMADIC. And yes, you happen to live near some of the very FEW dangerous spiders. So what?

Ahehehe. Listen to this and listen close, "kiddo," Jin didn't kill dangerous spiders, but harmless ones. And I've read a LOT of books on spiders. And by a lot, I mean EVERY book I could get my greasy little hands on. And I know, just as any amateur arachnologist knows, that species venomous to humans make up a TINY handful of the total breeds. Since you seem to think otherwise, you're either misinformed, stupid or just lying. Badaaaaaa. Pick one.

Ehgchc. Pfftcch... Listen sonneh, it's very simple... remove the PC to somewhere else, and brush the spiders away. I've done similar things with similarly intricate objects many times, it's easy and there are no spider fatalities. What are you even arguing for? You have no case. It's laughable.

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Spider AL
--

Thank you for disturbing my sleeping habits.

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Official Staff of Massassi Temple:
-Chat Op
-Level Poster
-Forum Admin
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Moral to the Story: Don't Mess

[On second thoughts, this thread is getting nasty so I think I'll stay out]

[This message has been edited by Jaiph (edited January 03, 2004).]

[Yeah..ok, bye]

[This message has been edited by Jaiph (edited January 03, 2004).]

/me copies and pastes above post before its gone forever.

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Snail racing: (500 posts per line)
----@%

Ok, I'll give you that. I may not be qualified to tell you where spiders were created to live, but in any case I do not want them living in my home. No matter how small the risk is of being bitten, it is a risk I(and many others) am simply not willing to take. Because of this, the threat is taken out as quickly as possible. In some ways its comparable to the secret service protecting the president. Even the smallest threat is dealt with when it comes to the president's safety.

I might as well explain. I didn't say that. I was never referring to other species, nor did I say that killing cats was okay. They're spiders. We think they're gonna harm us, they go splutch. And my hypocrisy IS frighteningly blatant. Well done for pointing that out.

I can very easily say "prove it is". Sentience is a synonym of aware, which itself is a concept of intelligence. Show me a spider which has won a Nobel prize, killed a load of people with one thing or invented those paper napkins that you can't get out of the packaging.

And your pro-spider campaign isn't? See above, r.e. the sentience.

You may be, but I'm not.

If you knew me, you would. Really.

Plants are alive, in the sense that they respire. And don't say you need them for food, because you could theoretically live off chemical crap.

HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION: There's a wasp on your arm. You're allergic to wasps. If you don't kill it, there's a chance it'll sting you, and if it does, you'll die. If you do, it won't sting you. What do you do?

Without absolute proof that spiders aren't going to mutate and kill us all, we should wait and die horrible, acidy deaths. And they're spiders. Killing a spider does not cause a scandal and get the press following your every move. Maybe I don't have a right. But no-one cares.

Yes. Yes I am.

EDIT: Damn typoes...

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Yeah, but you know what? This one, this one right here, this was my dream, my wish, and it didn't come true. So I'm takin' it back. I'm takin' 'em all back.

[This message has been edited by - Tony - (edited January 03, 2004).]

An entire sentence can be taken out of context and twisted to sound like the sayer (heh, sayer) was saying something different.

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Do you have stairs in your house?

Spider Al, let me tell you a story. Last night, as I was going to bed, I saw a large spider on the ceiling. Yes, how cute. A big harmless friendly spider. Then, while I was sleeping, it crawled down the wall, onto my arm, and bit me. The bite swelled up to the size of a 50 cent coin. Pus came out of it. Above all, it hurt like hell.

This has happened many times in the past. Now, with that in mind, what do you think I should do? Ask the spider out to tea? The fact is, I was not bothering the spider in the least, unless my entire room has become its personal territory.

If I go to sleep again tonight without doing anything about it, the spider will bite me again. How can you say spiders are harmless now?

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The Matrix: Unplugged