Except that these Catholic schoolboys are put into Catholic schools through no choice of their own. By the time they're old enough to make such decisions, they've already been brainwashed since childhood to accept it without thinking.

I totally agree with Mort, and will take it one step further: Why is it even doctrine? What horrible, dreadful things does this doctrine prevent between two responsible (meaning no disease spreading and they're using protection) adults?

I'm not sure why you see it as some horrible thing that someone would rather wait until marriage to engage in sex with someone else.

They wish to make sex a special thing shared between a wife and husband, and they believe that having sex outside of the marriage makes it that much less special. These people aren't being threatened with hot irons to the genitals, and it's not "brainwashing," as you so tactfully put it. It's being raised differently from you.

Not to mention that your concept of "brainwashing" falls apart when faced with the fact that there are non-Catholics, and even non-theists, who believe that sex should be saved for marriage. Sex feels good, yes, but we believe it has a place, and that place is within a marriage.

So the "horrible, dreadful" thing the doctrine prevents is having sex be less special? Kind of like spoiler protection? Isn't that a decision better left up to individuals?

It's not about "rather" waiting. In this case, it's being told that that you'd rather wait. Not having the choice.

and it's the individuals decision whether to follow the doctrine.

If an institute as powerful as the Catholic church decided to say "actually, sex-before-marriage is fine", there would be overwhelming consequences.

Yeah, like making it slightly more likely that I'd ever join it.

Good point. An ex-friend of mine who is not religious in anyway (she'd probably lean more towards buddhism if she was) supports the idea of waiting till marriage. But she doesn't try to hammer it into peoples' heads.

Some are just able to hold back sexually more than others. So IMO, this is a pointless argument/debate to have. Even if the catholic church was gone you would likely find people still doing this that didn't even have catholic beliefs.

If the Pope said tomorrow in a Papal Bull that Sex before marriage was a-ok, and that contraception isn't so bad after all, nothing would change. Changing doctrine is almost impossible in believers.

FACT.

how did this turn into an arguement??

anyway, yay for popedom.!!

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Exactly.

Yes but theres the whole "Do as we say or go to hell" thing to consider.

Funny, this came up on [url=www.whopissedyouoff.com]Evad's Site[/url] today. Here's what I had to say on the matter this morning..



Obviously, do take with a pinch of salt. :p

Which falls under the "choice to follow the doctrine."

Yeah, but my point was that there is no choice if you want to go to heaven.

Yes. That's part of trying to follow a religion - trying one's best to keep its tenets.

So it isn't enough to simply say "yeah, this is probably a good idea to do" and let them making their mind up about it, it has to invent the concept of 'hell' to frighten individuals to act in line.

In Christianity individual actions don't send you to hell.

Because it was the Catholic church that invented the concept of hell, right?

Well the Catholic Church was the first branch of Christianity...

...But maybe it was the Jews, they get blamed for everything else

Jews have something like Hell (or, I suppose the correct way to say it would be that Christians have something like Gehenna) according to this site:





Everything has consequences in Christianity. Hell is the price of committing sin and being unrepentant about it. We believe that it is God's command to not have sex outside of marriage. By choosing to follow Christianity, a person must try to stay to within God's tenets, and, when he/she fails to do so, they must repent. Some churches (such as the Catholic church) believe that a penance must be assigned to transgressions. Others (like my own) believe that simply being repentant and asking God for forgiveness is sufficient to gain His forgiveness.

You seem to have some sort of difficulty understanding that this is simply a part of Christianity. It's a personal choice to choose whether or not to engage in premarital sex. However, there will be consequences of your actions. You will either have to break from the religion or, if you feel guilty or remorseful over your actions, seek forgiveness.

Yes, you did.









1. What's your longest relationship? If you've had any.

2. Marriage is a commitment on a greater level yes, but when you arent married, and you're deeply in love with someone, been with them for a long time, and are sure of your future together, and you decide to have sex with them, how does that make it wrong?

I've been with my girlfriend for 5 years, and we've had sex. We're too young to consider marriage yet, Im 21 and she's 20. BUt based on catholic religion, we're doomed to sin? THat's what I'm trying to point out. YOu can have your beliefs, but that doesnt make them right or wrong. And nobody should press their beliefs on other people, like saying "OH YEA, you had premarital sex, no matter your status with your current partner...you're doomed to spend eternity living in sin or dying and going to hell!!"

3. Sex doesnt lead to divorce. I mean I can see the point in the belief when you say someone just sleeps with a hundred people for the hell of it, and just plain pleasure, but when you're already committed to someone and in love, the choice should be up to you, not a piece of paper signed by you and two witnesses.


EDIT: And lets remember, these beliefs are coming from a group that thinks Anal sex is wrong. Gimme a break. It's a sexual preference, you cant help what turns you on/gets you off. THat doesnt make you a bad person.


Murder SOmeone - Go to hell/sin

Anal sex - Go to hell/Sin

Premarital Sex - Go to hell/Sin

Anyone notice anything a little off here?...please tell me im not the only one.

PS - Im not saying you're wrong for your beliefs, because you can believe what you want.

My response was simply for the statement you made that it is "plain and simple. It's not wrong."



Because we believe that sex is something that is to be shared between a wife and a husband, and no one else. We believe to do so draws away from its sanctity and its value.



I quote:





Not directly, no. But very often, people who marry early into a relationship (as much as 2 years) are still in the "passionate love" stage of their relationship, and sexual activity only heightens the "hot and heavy" feelings. It's the opinion of the psychological community that it's actually a decrease in stigma associated with divorce and a decrease of influence of religion in society that has contributed to an increase in divorce rates.



It's the Christian belief that no one with sin can enter Heaven.



"Your beliefs are off. What you believe is wrong. But hey, I'm not saying you're wrong for your beliefs."

Um..



If thats the case, EVERYONE would be going to hell. You sin once a day practically.

WHat im trying to say is yes, I can see how it's sanctity and all, but how exactly is it WRONG. Sex is natural. I can see people who **** for fun. But people who truly are in love, it shouldnt matter whether or not they're married.

There's this thing Christians do called repenting

And frankly, in the eyes of a Christian, I'm a barrel of sin. I'm happy with that, and all my Christian friends here are too. Some of them (I have been told) pray for me on the side (presumably for the rest of the uni too... we're all pleasantly debauched) though.

Anyways, I'm off to bed before the **** hits the fan.

Oh, of course. I, by no means, am anything close to sinless. But, as Martyn said, Christianity has the thing of asking for forgiveness that wipes the slate clean, if you will.



Sex is supposed to be something kept for wife and husband. It's wrong in the fact that we believe that it's supposed to be shared only by wife and husband who are wed, and to have sex outside of the marriage is violating the rule that sex should be shared only between a wed wife and husband.

I read today that the new pope already has health problems... they are indicipating a shorter reign...

I don't care what people think, I respond because I have too much pride and hate being thought a fool. I didn't go to Catholic school until High School, and I chose to do so. Many Catholics never attend Catholic school beyond the small amount of religious education required to recieve the Sacraments of Initiation.

Secondly, to point to "brainwashing" or supposed lack of experience in the subject matter as proof of an arguement's invalidity is logical falacy through and through.

To argue any of this other stuff is just pointless.

I can guarantee that you will find many more Protestants spreading the 'going to hell' rhetoric than you will Catholics -- from my experience, Catholics are much, much less judgemental. The Church cannot confirm that anybody is actually in Hell -- so for all we know, it could be empty. Is it likely? No..but Hell is for those who voluntarily reject God's mercy.

I still think your "calm the hell down" comment was way out of line when compared to the rest of this discussion -- the vast majority of quotes that you quoted were perfectly fine debate/discussion sentences. You're behaving worse than those you criticise, I must say.. :p

As for your numbered questions..1), I have always been single. Haven't found the right girl yet. It'll happen when it happens. As for 2), I believe that was already discussed. I believe what I believe, and I believe in it enough that I am willing to wait for marriage.



I have never been to a Catholic school, and I was raised Protestant. It was my choice to become Catholic. If anything, I was brainwashed against Catholicism.


Purgatory provides the 'cleaning-up' before entry into heaven -- also, the Church teaches it as a state, not as a place..so it is possible to 'serve' purgatory while on earth..

As I said earlier, as far as I understand, the Church cannot confirm that anybody is in Hell. Do you see me condemning anybody? I fail to see where I've said that you're going to hell, and I also fail to see how in any way I have "pressed my beliefs" upon anybody in this thread.

I never said YOU specifically condemned anyone, I meant to say catholic extremeists who are totally 1000% into all beliefs like crazy.

Groups like Opus Dei scare me. I'm not too familiar with them though.

Heh, this is all just great. You know, Wolfy, as long as we're on the subject of sin, Mormons would be appalled at you for drinking and not repenting from it and mending your ways. You see, there's always someone else that has a higher standard than you do and thinks you're going to hell. Feels nice, don't it?

Since when are we talking about extremists? I thought we were discussing the official Catholic faith. There are extremists everywhere..in all sorts of religions/beliefs.



Ah. The difference is that I don't try to decide where someone is going -- that's God's decision..and in His infinite mercy, for all I know, He might just send everyone to heaven. I don't know. Find one post in which I have stated that someone is going to hell because of his or her actions..

I probably have family that believes that I'm going to hell because I'm Catholic. Do I care? No -- because they aren't making that decision.

YUO R ALL GOING TO HELLL!!11three

Everybody seems to believe that everyone else is going to Hell (SWEEEEEPing statement of fun :p ).

Oh, and I must bounce and agree to the fact that though the Catholic faith is more conservative on the whole than faiths based on Protestantism, all the nutbars who have told me I'm going to Hell and laid the retoric on thick have predominantly been evangelicals.

But people who do any of that are missing the message, I'm sure some hippy type fella with long hair and crazy powers was just telling people to be nice to one and other and be tolerant of what other people believe.

Anyways, this one looks like it's wrapping up pretty nicely for a 'massassian religious thread'.

I'm going to go have some breakfast, just so you know.

I'm assuming that this was some angered response or attempt to bait me, but, yes, I've known that Mormons believe I'm going to Hell. I've never seen a priest, so I've not confessed my sins by the Catholic standards. I've come to accept and live with the fact that there are groups who believe I'm destined for Hell, and I've actually got a number of Catholic and Mormon friends. We get along fabulously. Why don't you?

*takes step backwards* Yes, I believe there are people having a heated argument, even though both sides are assuming different premises.

Jesus man, if this was Baldur's Gate II, your god character would've been labelled 'chaotic evil'. AIDS? Overpopulation -> famine? No?

It's a tragic twist of fate that calls *your* viewpoint pro-life.

The sanctity of life? Life is a chemical process - you don't allow thousands of people to die because of the sanctity of oxidation, do you?



Your church has an extensive track record of pushing agendas on sex. Example? Of course!

In the times of Guido de Arezzo, your church leaders who by definition despise sex were scandalized by intervals that could, shall we say, awaken the 'animal consciousness' in humans. Sex is a very dangerous concept, because it's very hard to control. People get out of line because of it. So the catholic church of course excommunicated that music and the people who wrote it. Hallelujah!

I'm studying something in my sociology classes. Interestingly, this falls under the subchapter 'control'. If an authority wants to reinforce rules and impose them onto the ignorant population, they place the rules outside of human origin, and make it into a rule that was born out of universal truth. In this case: natural sexual ethics (polygamy and reproduction) are wrong. Monogamy and true love are our goals because that way we can exercise our mass influence and control more easily because God wants it that way.

So what is Church? Control. Slapping God in the face? I'm not buying it. Next opportunity I have, I'm having sex on an altar. Now that's a serious (deserved) ***** slap right there.

I'd also like to add that thousands of married African women die from AIDs because they can't insist that their husbands use a condom.

Anyone who thinks I'm going to hell isn't much of a friend for obvious reasons.