The ones that just say you're going to Hell aren't your friends no, it's the ones who are scared you are that are your friends. You have to get used to it.

*Shrug*

The thing I don't get, is that people are able to say 'God is all powerful, forgiving, infinitely good, etc....' and then find no inconsistency in adding 'and he throws people in a place of eternal torture at random'.

I'm assuming you mean "scared for you". If that is the case, I make no such distinction. I don't care if they tell me I'm going to hell or not. If they're thinking it, it's insulting.

Bah, I can't believe I'm about to argue for the Christians here (I'm contently agnostic), but that ain't it. It's to do with accepting Jesus. God doesn't condemn you to Hell, either you didn't accept that you could go to either, or you chose not to repent sins. Or something like that - someone'll clear it up for you.

But anyway, I'm ducking out of here for a few days so I can get my work done - I've just realised how drastically behind I am.

I've heard many Christians say that if you have never been introduced to Christianity, you'll go to hell, Martyn. No chance to "accept Jesus" or "repent of your 'sins'".

Actually we believe everyone is introduced to Christ, without even knowing about the historical Christ you can meet Him in spirit.

Whatever you say it's still a consious decision to accept christ. So what of those people who dont make that decision?

Condom use will definitely solve the problem of poverty.
Which is the main cause of the alcohol abuse problems in Africa, both of which fuel the prostitution industry, that helps spreads AIDS to the men, and then to their wives, and later to other prostitutes.

That'll definitely spread awareness of the facts about AIDS. You know, all the facts besides the fact that using a condom is one way to slow the spread of AIDS.

As we all know, treating the final effects fixes all the problems that caused them.

When they reject Christ, they reject God so they are seperated from Him :/

...lol.

If you don't know about something you can't be expected to make a decision about it. That's like pre-school grade logic there. If one is not well-accquainted with the historical Jesus or Christianity, they have not by any means made a "conscious" decision to accept Christ or to deny Christ.

...that was my point

And my point is many Christians believe that those people are going to hell.

What's the religious affiliation of these families?

Yeah and so...? Good Christians won't berate your or condemn you because you choose not to accept Christ. Yes we may think you're going to Hell because you decide not to accept Christ. But, that's what Christianity has taught us.

I have a proposal for a religion (which is in no way more ridiculous or inferior to yours). What if all these holy books took over the earth, as some sort of test from God®?

What if, in reality, all he wanted us to do is get the most out of our glorious 'higher' brain, and think everything through, without being deceived by nonsense scripture, false authority and vulgar demagogy? What if he wanted us to explore the depths of his Grand Project of supersymmetry, or punctuated equilibrium or the mysterious number PI?

What if he actually was angry at the dudes who spout verses of the bible instead of thinking things through? What if, between the guy who thinks and the guy who lets AIDS run rampant because of some stupid one-liner, he actually favors the guy who thinks, because that was his vision for his cherished human all along? Maybe God is actually proud of this awesome thing that is sex, raging hormones and raw primal attraction, and his fury will come down on all those who are disgusted by it? After all, he created it, no?

Man, a lot of you on this thread (most even) are going to hell. Me, I'll be sitting at the Lord's right hand.

Don't attack this viewpoint please - it's religious.

Back to studying.

I am referring to those who never made a decision whether to "accept" Christ or not. The Christians who think they go to hell seem especially heartless to me.

If we were heartless we wouldn't tell you about it. If everyone in this forum was in a house and it started to burn, regardless of how many people laugh at you wouldn't you tell them that they have to leave the house to escape?

Sure, but only if I had factual data that suggested their houses were on fire. I would never tell them their houses were burning based on a premonition or some kind of belief that doesn't have a factual basis. It's just not a proper thing to do in the privacy of someone's home, and especially if more often than not it's a false alarm because you did not have the pertinent data at the right time.

Right, it's just so many of us have staked our lives on our beliefs and we've experienced God enough to take it as a fact. I guess you could say we are all suffering from a mass dillusion, but if you were dillusioned and saw me in a endangering situation I would still hope that you would warn me even I wasn't in any real danger. If you don't want to hear our message, I won't try to keep shoving it but we are not heartless, it goes against Christ who we worship and everything He stands for.

That's one of my things. I think all adults are capable of making their own decisions regarding morality, whether that means adhering to a suitable religious sect or abiding by a personal creed. I despise any attempts at conversion (which is all a 'warning' is in its purest form) because it automatically insinuates that the potential convert's beliefs are 'wrong'.

Right, but how is the increase in divorce rate in any way a 'bad thing'?

The increase in divorces directly parallels the increase of women's rights in the 60s and 70s, so women were no longer compelled to stay in abusive or miserable marriages. They could divorce their husband, and find someone they were truly happy with. Increase in divorce rate, increase in happiness.

Yes, it would of course be easier that they work that sort of stuff out before they got married in the first place, but the marital tension may be due to differing sexual desires, which they would only have known about had they had sex before getting married.

US divorce rates

Variation in divorce rates by religion:

Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

Ron Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said: These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher calibre than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage.

A little more extreme than I would've put it, but the difference IS definitely statistically significant.

Dont even bother to try the "So many people believe it it must be true" argument. Everyone believed the world was flat... they wern't just "yeah, it's probably flat" but they were scared they might fall off. Just because a lot of people believe something does not make it any more true.

That's not what I said :p

You implied it though. By saying "Mass dillusion" as if it affecting a lot of people makes your beliefs more valid.

I'm sorry, if it came across that way I didn't mean it. I was just saying we hold to our beliefs so strongly we consider it fact and that to others it seems we are disillusioned.

Correct me if I'm wrong but your logic seems to be, "If you don't like something it doesn't exist." The crux of your argument against Christianity seems to be that you don't like the idea of hell.

For the sake of argument, let's all accept the premise that God does exist. First, since God created morals, editing them and judging their creator by your edited version of them makes no sense. There is no moral code written into the fabric of the universe. What ever he says is. Period. Good is what ever he decides. Arguing that there is no God because you don't like his standards makes no sense.

Who was that directed at? I'm guessing it was tinny or me... but neither of us said anything like that.

Catholics believe that those who have never been introduced to Christianity (and thus never had a chance to accept Jesus) may still enter heaven, depending on how you live your life (for example, a mass murderer probably will not enter heaven -- that's just common sense). However, we aren't supposed to make it our job to decide indefinitely which ones will enter and which ones won't (we leave that up to God), though we do hold that if you consciously reject Jesus and Christianity, your entry could very well (but not necessarily) be denied.
so if a Christian (could probably apply to other religious groups as well) tells you that you're going to hell, tell them to stop playing God... final judgement is, has been, and always will be God's job alone


I think this speaks for itself.

Well, I had several posts quoted to reply to, then I saw that Darth Slaw did it for me

As I have said, and he has said, the Catholic Church does not 'condemn' people..that's up to God. As I stated earlier, the Church cannot confirm that anybody is in Hell.

Again, keep in mind that we're discussing official Church teaching..not extremists of all branches of Christianity. I have some extended family that probably believes that I'm going to hell. Fortunately for me, they aren't making that choice.

Some non-Catholic Christian teaching is that unless you were 'born again', you're going to hell -- this isn't too hot of a deal for those who haven't heard of Christ..hence the Church's stance on this issue. We all have 'natural law' inside of us -- we know (unless we're mentally messed up) that it is wrong to kill or rape someone..we don't need a God to tell us that.



Let's not even compare abortion/pro-life issues to AIDs -- that's another thread altogether. This shows my point quite well.

Many of you seem to miss the point that some of us actually want to be Catholic. You don't see the Church condemning non-Catholics left and right..

This thread smells funky.

Who farted?

In my humble opinion, nobody can say it better than Pope John Paul II..



It is a concious choice to reject God. If you reject an incorrect perception of God, you can't really have rejected the true God -- the all-loving one. He is a God of mercy, not one to take pleasure in punishing sinners.

Wait, before we continue:

-is it a conscious choice to reject the CHRISTIAN god that gets you in hell?
-what is sin?

Define your idea of the "CHRISTIAN" God. Does it agree with the Catholic Church's teaching? If not, wrong thread.

Well, would a muslim get into heaven? A jew? A moonie? Sikh?

You're asking me to do the very thing I have just told you that I do not do. It is not my place to say who will and who will not go to Heaven.

Read the quote by the late Pope John Paul II..that says it many times better than I could.

This may help to clarify our position:



Father Murray Watson

OK, that sounds acceptable, I'll think about that

>.>

<.<

I like that quote. That's actually one of the best things I think I've ever heard on the subject. Even better than JP2 up there imo.

Nice man

(should be working - eep)