I believe they can choose, they have the power to choose, with the help of Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry, I know that sounds ridiculous and you can say that means nothing at all, especially if you are a non-christian, but that is why I believe homosexuals can change. It certantly has happened before.

You're obviously beyond being swayed through logical reasoning.

Did it ever occur to you that homosexuals are happy being homosexual. And that they don't see anything wrong with it. They don't need the help of Jesus to change, because they don't feel they should have to change.

Yeah it has happened before. Homosexuals have suppressed their urges because bigots like you decided that they were wrong and evil and were sinners and would burn in hell. When you get threatened with pain and torment for umpteen billions of years, I think you'd start to show interest in the opposite sex too. I'm not saying there aren't those of them who haven't actually changed--but who's to say they're not just bisexuals, or they didn't just fake the change? Honestly, especially when you cussed us all out all over this thread, after you go touting Christianity will save all to us, you just sound stupid.

No. Stealing is a crime against the society and harms someone, whereas homosexuality is a "crime against God" and harms no one. Now, christians can go and try to preach and get homosexuals to become heterosexuals. There is nothing wrong with that. But to condemn them(which is God's job) and try to restrict their free will in a harmless matter is decidedly un-Christian.

I don't understand how homosexuality is a choice. I know I couldn't "choose" to be attracted to men, my brain doesn't work that way. My brain knows that it's attracted to women and that's it. I think that attraction is such a deep emotion that it could never even get involved with the "choice" part of the conscious.

On the subject of sanctity of marriage: it doesn't exist. As a Christian I think there is a HUGE difference between a legal marriage and the religious bond between two people when they get married, and that's between the two people getting married and God; no one else.

Yeah isn't a good christian supposed to not judge people. You're supposed to love everyone regardless of any flaws they may have in your eyes. Have fun in hell.

Whither homosexuality is a choice or not is a non-issue. It doesn't matter either way except for the use in shallow reasoning arguments.

Bill: You're condeming. hehe. :p

Why is it wrong? Use your own reasoning, don't just hide behind the Bible.
This is like when the teacher tells you to turn in your own work and not copy your neighbor. Turn your brain to the ON position.



Then tell me, what date did you choose to be heterosexual? Use some logic, man. You went through it to. It was never a choice. It's just who you are.



I can do a lot of things. Can is the keyword. Sure, I can be celibate, but it would be hard. The question is: why would I want to?



Degrade marriage? Who cares? What does it matter that people choose not to get married? Does that somehow lessen peoples' love for each other? No. It doesn't. Marriage is merely a man-made institution that doesn't really do anything at all besides some benefits from the government.



There is no proof that god created marriage at all. Quit hiding behind your Bible and list some reasons that marriage between a man and a man is bad. Some actual REASONS. "The Bible said so" is not a REASON.



Wake up and realize that 95% of the people here think YOU are the who's supportive of such sick practices as bigotry.

Pssst... Kierran... I'm an athiest. I don't care. :p

[QUOTE=Kieran Horn]Whither homosexuality is a choice or not is a non-issue. It doesn't matter either way except for the use in shallow reasoning arguments.

Bill: You're condeming. hehe. :p[/QUOTE]

Something tells me he's not Christian.

Aw, so if there is a God, condemning people is the least of your worries.

But not by choice. :p

you hurt my feelings

He made a future post. Quick, Freelancer! There's still time to make his post false! TO THE DELOREAN!

It's not a choice. If it was, I would be straight, believe me.

Marriage is nothing more than a title and a piece of paper. If you love someone it shouldn't matter in the least.

This is really pointless. This is just another example of religion brainwash people to turn a blind eye to logic and solely base their beliefs on what they are told to believe in church. I mean, I believe in God, for my own reasons, but I am not really into the Christianity’s belief system.

Well, you do a pretty good job of that now.

Let's sum up the argument for the viewers at home.

Being gay - not a choice
Being black - not a choice
Being a woman - not a choice
Being attracted to children - not a choice

Having gay sex with a consenting adult - harms no one, not a crime.
Driving whilst black - harms no one (no more than driving whilst white harms anyone, at least), not a crime.
Eating ice cream whilst a woman - harms no one (besides your hips), not a crime.
Raping children - HARMS SOMEONE, IS A CRIME!

None of the first four examples need to restrict their behaviour, because what they are doing harms no one. The fifth should be expected to curb their behaviour because IT IS VIOLENT BEHAVIOUR THAT LEAVES THE VICTIM SCARRED!

What people "are" is immaterial to the discussion. We criminalise acts that are violent, not acts of personal preference (driving as opposed to taking the train, ice cream as opposed to salad, men as opposed to women).

I've probably posted my views on the subject here before, but here's a quick recap for those who haven't heard them/didn't remember/don't give a crap. (Undoubtedly at least 95% of all Massassians fall into one or more of these three categories.)

1. Individual homosexuals in the United States have in a technical sense all the same rights with regard to marriage as individual heterosexuals. A heterosexual can marry a member of the opposite sex if s/he so choses, and so can a homosexual. A homosexual cannot choose to marry a member of the same sex, but neither can a heterosexual.
2. That said, I fall more on the side that says homosexual couples should have access to all the same rights and protections afforded to heterosexual couples.
3. I further believe that marriage is primarily a religious institution and that only the religious organizations conducting marriages have the right to allow or deny marriages to couples. Marriage as a legal concept should be done away with and replaced with civil unions for all couples, which would fall under government authority.

[EDIT: Any possible further posting from Michael Macfarlane between now and noon noon tomorrow should be considered to have been not occuring on account of general incomprehensibility and lack of a rational framework to address you comments in. Or somesuch. I'm just trying to get back into bed.

Dunno. That's why I'm hanging around here.


It's good that you're backing down a bit on the vitriol. Now I'm going to try to be reasonable with you. I'm not expecting you to agree with me, but I ask that you reflect upon what I say and reply honestly.

First off, I gather that you're a christian. Now, you may believe that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God, but don't you think it's even worse to say hateful things about the gay people in Canada? Wishing they went to hell?
Even if you don't like what they're doing, I don't see what warrants all the anger. They don't want to make others unhappy, they just want to be able to get married and live happily ever after.


You realize that by making this claim you go against both scientific evidence and the personal experiences of every gay person on the planet? Why do you believe that you are right and they are wrong? I'm afraid you can't claim biblical authority on this.


Yes, they can. I'll tell you what, would you be willing to show your support by never getting married or having sex yourself? I think it's unfair to expect gay people to be celibate if you aren't willing to be celibate.


I doubt this. The people who are opposed to SSM are typically the marrying kind.


I'm not going to speak for others, but I'm a christian. Would you kindly point out where in the bible God says that he created marriage for just a man and woman?

[QUOTE=dry gear the frog]Dunno. That's why I'm hanging around here.[/QUOTE]

Please continue. I missed you.

Right. But they don't want to, in either case. Isn't that just like saying "Black people are free to marry black people, and white people are free to marry white people. What, you're black and want to marry a white person? Sorry. You *can* marry a black person, though. Knock yourself out."?

[QUOTE=Matthew Pate]Right. But they don't want to, in either case. Isn't that just like saying "Black people are free to marry black people, and white people are free to marry white people. What, you're black and want to marry a white person? Sorry. You *can* marry a black person, though. Knock yourself out."?[/QUOTE]
I would like to point out that until a couple decades ago, interracial marriages were also illegal.

[quote=Michael MacFarlane]3. I further believe that marriage is primarily a religious institution and that only the religious organizations conducting marriages have the right to allow or deny marriages to couples. Marriage as a legal concept should be done away with and replaced with civil unions for all couples, which would fall under government authority.[/quote]
I definitely agree with this. Too many people get upset because they think marriage is religious union, and since the bible condemns homosexuality, same-sex marriages should not be allowed. Well the thing is, there are already many churches that perform unions for same-sex couples. It's just that the goverment doesn't always respect that union. So claiming that God doesn't allow same-sex marriages is a horrible arguement, because many religions or sects will disagree with that. This issue isn't, and shouldn't, be about religion; it's about civil rights.

I might just do that. I had to take a break because it was getting frustrating, but things seem better now.

A lot of homosexuals have a hard time coming to grips with it, and many at first desperately wish to become straight. Of course, this attitude is unhealthy and most get past it.

[QUOTE=dry gear the frog]A lot of homosexuals have a hard time coming to grips with it, and many at first desperately wish to become straight. Of course, this attitude is unhealthy and most get past it.[/QUOTE]
It's true that most eventually accept it, but the phase where they hate themselves for it and wish they were straight definitely shows that it's not a choice.

That's what I was getting at; people thought this was a reasonable argument then, but they don't now. Even conservatives today accept interracial marriage, but they didn't then. It will likely be the same thing with gay marriage in a hundred years. So people who are fanatically against it even though it makes no difference to their lives can rest assured that their opinions are going the way of geocentrism, the theory of ether, and using leeches to heal people. The progress of humanity will keep going no matter how much you resist.

God didn't create marriage.



Good god, this stupid damn 'choice' thing.

-Do you choose your electrodermal responses?
-Do you choose your EEG responses?
-Do you choose your pupil size responses?
-Do you choose your heart rate responses?
-Do you choose your electro-muscular activity responses?

I did NOT choose to be a heterosexual. PERIOD. What POSSIBLE motivation is there for a heterosexual to forsake his natural urges and turning to homosexuality?



Yes, because that's healthy. You know what happens when you deny priests sex for long periods of time? They take little boys to *confession*.

And why should they have to 'contain themselves' - because of scared white men like you??



Dude, this is painful.



You know that divorce rates are higher among christians than among other religions, right ? (surprisingly, only beaten by Jews).

There is nowhere in the bible that clearly states "one man and one woman" or "monogamy" or any words to that effect, but abstinence and polygamy are plentiful.

And if you really want to go by the ethics of primitive tribesmen who hated gays, be consistent and go by these too:

• Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal. (Boaz -- Ruth 4:5-10)
  
• Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head, trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she's yours. (Deuteronomy 21:11-13)
  
• Find a prostitute and marry her. (Hosea 1:1-3)
  
• Don't be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity. (Solomon -- 1 Kings 11:1-3)
  
• Cut 200 foreskins off of your future father-in-law's enemies and get his daughter for a wife. (David -- 1 Samuel 18:27)
  
• it's a long list

There's NOTHING more natural than stimulus-response. NOTHING.

Interesting, you seem to be a Christian. Now correct me if I am wrong but Jesus Christ taught love for God and love for fellow neighbour according to the New Testament correct? Your first comment not only did you damn someone to hell but you were also derogatory to them going right agenst love for neighbour. Now correct me if I'm wrong for I am not Christian but isn't God the only one who can damn someone or decided their fate once they die? By being derogatory and closed minded you're judging someone, but isn't that the place of God? Now weither or not you believe homosexuals will go to hell is your religious freedom a freedom that I believe you excersize and enjoy, but isn't it also their freedom to be homosexual without threat of abuse and derogatory comments? Please consider this when you post comments like that, you would not like it if someone called you abusive names for being Christian don't do this to others. Remember if you follow the New Testimate Jesus taught the Golden Rule do on to others as you would like done to you.

*cheers*

Exactly!!!



Dude, I have had gays trying to hit on me soooo many times, I couldn't care less. And I'm 100% straight. I think it's funny. I always laugh when it happens. It doesn't freak me out at all... For me it's the same thing as with a woman that isn't 'my type'. Simple as that.


Homosexuality is not a crime. Your idea of it being a 'sick' practise is based on nothing more than your disgust of the actual physical act of gay sex. That, and the irrational unwillingness from people like you to accept that gays have no choice, is a cause of pain for so many homosexuals.

Because of (religious) intolerance, so many homosexuals feel sick and dirty and excluded and what not when they find out about their sexual orientation, some even commit suicide.

What's wrong with love?



:p

What the hell, I go to bed and you guys rape me all night.

Anyway, this no longer seems worth posting about. You guys obviously raped me with your more logical reasoning and my swearing obviously puts me up there with gay people so ok then...

Seriously, you guys win. I still believe homosexuality is a sin, but plenty of you have raised valid points. Something for me to think about.

ReT

It was the picture that did it, right? :p

Bah, the one on the left isn't that hot.

This entire thread has been future posted! It's stuck at the top of the list I'm pretty sure that wasn't happening before.

Fair Enough! A very reasonable and mature reaction, respect!

[QUOTE=Vincent Valentine]It's true that most eventually accept it, but the phase where they hate themselves for it and wish they were straight definitely shows that it's not a choice.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.


Hey, c'mon, that one's not fair. Celibacy may be a factor, but there's a lot more to it than that.


Aw, come on. Don't give up!
It's good that you're thinking about it at least. Maybe you could think and then respond to at least my points? I'm a nice guy, I won't insult you. At least not as long as you're talking in good faith.

Topic like this, 4 pages, I don't have to read anything and I can know this thread stinks.


*me reads few posts*


Ah, the wonders of being right.

Fastgamerr, you piss me off more than you could possibly imagine. There was NO POINT WHATSOEVER to come into this thread and say it sucks. IF IT SUCKS, DON'T POST IN IT. IF YOU DO, POST SOMETHING TO MAKE IT BETTER. IT'S NOT A HARD CONCEPT. Really, there's no need to be a troll.

Chill the eff out. It's FGR. He's there to make you mad. I mean, he calls Americans Burgerboys all the time. It's something to do with his weird, crazy, finnboyishness (though he denies the crazy part.)

That, and he was completely wtong, espeicailly about the last page.