Don't worry, we all gave up on him a long time ago. We just humor him once in a while.

You guys are both being silly. You're arguing in black and white. Murder is worse than rape (with the latter at least the victim has a chance to recover), but that doesn't make it any less serious.

Sheesh.

You see, I disagree because that makes no sense.

to me, murder (worse than) rape => murder (more serious than) rape.

Exactly. You disagree. We disagree. So STFU and move along. It's this thing called an opinion, bigot boy.

You STFU and move along first.

So tell me, when did I go "your opinion is wrong". I called you ignorant, but only because you're intolerant of others ideas. I don't have to STFU because I'm not being the bigot. I understand how you feel, I just don't feel that way.

I'm sorry if I shined a ray of hope through your dreary worldview. Since you are the pessimist with regard to the matter at hand, you should be the first to STFU.

Wow...wow...

And by the way, my entire stance is that rape victims can go on to live perfectly normal and fulfilling lives. Yeah, that makes me the optimist and you the pessimist. If anything, you should call me naive, but not bigotted. I do not take very kindly to that at all.

Ok, your naive as hell. You have no concept of what it feels like to be raped and shouldn't even open your mouth on such a matter.

Okay, some can. But that doesn't change the fact that you think murder is worse than rape, and I don't. You focus on those that can, and I focus on those that can't. I can't put up any statistics, but in personal experience with people who have been raped, it's messed up their lives severely to some degree.

Jesus, we've got a couple of ****tards in here. At least Gold showed some sense and stopped.

I know a girl that was raped when she was 14 or so, and that's something she's never recovered from. Her past haunts her constantly, and she can never totally get away from it. And saying that she *can* "forgive and forget" is not even close to the statistical probability that she will. And you don't need any more explanation for being a traumatic experience other than IT'S ****ING RAPE!

I'm going to have to try and present it like this. A rape victim was dehumanized. Someone decided that they no longer deserved the basic rights of a human being and decided they were merely an object of desire, pleasure, inferiority. They were not given a choice, the choice was forced upon them; at that moment, they were below any social standing they believed possible. They are shown just how weak and powerless they are, how vulnerable they are, and how worthless their trust in other people truely was. Sure, they live through the experience, but they will never get back their basic belief of who they are, because someone else already forced upon them that such a thing isn't true.

This kind of thinking is PRECISELY the reason alot of people find it hard, if not impossible, to go on. Because of people who think like you.

As long as we all agree both are BAD, why does it ****ing matter?

EXACTLY!

<3

...okay so I lied, I couldn't stay away

Um, tell me why my logic is flawed. If not, give me you're address and I'll find someone to prove my point.

Roach,
You understand perfectly how it would feel...Thank you.

There is no coming back from murder. Any chance you EVER had of recovering from the event, living a full life, or living a ****ty life, is GONE. If you are raped and are plagued by the guilt and horror of the event, that's one thing. You can KILL yourself if it is an unlivable existence. You do not have the CHOICE if you are murdered.

I understand how rape is a much more life-changing event... The effects stay with you for a very long time if not forever. In this way I suppose it could be considered more "serious" than murder... but only beacuse you don't walk away from the murder. You can't choose to avoid breaking under immense pressure and rise up a stronger person. You are dead.

Murder is undeniably "worse" (a very subjective term) than rape! Rape is a terrible, unforgivable crime in my opinion, and it scars its victimes horribly in many cases. However, the fact that they may live afterward makes it less final and damning of a crime than murder.

It's so simple, I think I keep repeating myself over and over... If you are murdered, yeah, you may not have to live with a lifetime of existence marred by that... Wait a minute, you may not have to? YOU CAN'T.

I like to think that nothing in my life that could happen would make me suicidal. I know that may be a tad naive, but I hope I have the will and determination to not give up. If I was raped, I would not want to kill myself afterwards, and I can say that with near-perfect surety.

If you would kill yourself after being raped because of the rape, then you can say that you think murder is a lesser transgression. Would you, though?

It's basically an extreme example of "ending it all" when the going gets tough. And yes, I'm aware that I don't, nor does anyone here, fully comprehend just how tough it must be for this woman. I doubt she'd say she'd rather have been murdered. She can live a fruitful life.

I side with Freelancer but understand and appreciate Wolfy/Shintock/DJ Yoshi's side... Don't take this as an attack and respond as such because it is not. Please.

IT'S THE BIGGEST FORM OF PERSONAL VIOLATION!

Seriously, WTF? Are you completely uncable of understanding there are things far worse than death? Everyone ****ing dies. Why should I value my life with such high regard when it won't matter to me once I'm dead?

You have to live with the fact of being raped. Who has to live with the fact they were murdered?

It's not exactly breathtaking logic here.

Milady, sugarless, are you saying you would rather be murdered than raped? If we could clear that up from the ladies' side it'd be nice, thanks :).

we are BOTH here and BOTH saying that rape is worse than death

and <3 DogSRool too

...So, and I'm sorry to pick on you, but...

Would you rather be murdered than raped.

I see you saying rape is worse than death and I may be beating a dead horse but there is a distinction between the general idea and YOU.

Because of people treating rape victims as, in your own words, someone DEHUMANIZED. And I live in Central Europe. All mail bombs will be returned to senders.

I agree Koobie. It's a lot harder to shrug it off (to any extent, I'm not sure I believe that entirely doing so is possible) if it is regarded as something that 'dehumanizes' you and 'lessens' you, brings you down, etc.

That's what rape is, Koobie. It's not just sexual, it's a dominance thing. And who said anything about a mail bomb?

well to Koobie - he's saying that that's how they feel, not how he feels towards them

and saberopus - I see your point, and I was speaking from a general idea point of view, but I know for a fact that milady would rather be murdered and I think I would too, as sad as my life ending would be for me, rape is just...ugh. Besides, it would be even more hellish for both of us than a lot of girls our age for obvious reasons. ...that just messes you up so badly, I couldn't even begin to imagine.

I don't think it has anything to do with how other people treat them. It's a completely internal thing. Infact, alot of women don't even tell anyone that they were raped, yet they are still traumatized, so your point is moot.

Yes, thank you Raoul and sugarless, I'm not saying I see rape victims as inferior beings, I'm say that's their internal conflict; the reason it's so goddamn difficult to cope with.

Freelancer, I want you to go to prison. Some fat man named Bubba would name you Nancy.


Well I suppose it's not rape if you're willing...

Please leave that out of this?

But there is no corellation between being raped and being worthless/inferior. Why would anyone think they were inferior because they got raped? Someone beat you and someone's p33n touched your wee-wee. It just happened. There's no reason why you have to cross the wires in your brain and associate a random event with feelings of inferiority or whatever.

Oh wow...I don't know how to even start there. It's far more than just "someone's p33n touched your wee-wee" as you put it. It's the fact that they had no choice. As I said, someone else decided they didn't deserve to have basic rights as a human being that everyone takes for granted. Such a "random event" (as you again would rather put it, rather down playing the entire act I'd like to add) is an affirmation that you are no longer a respected human being, as someone else just took you out of the tier completely.

Because they were traumatized from the violent event.

If you saw a bloody terrorist attack in front of you, you would react afterwards with confused/mixed emotions.

Not technically.

It doesn't matter than you don't get it. It's just a fact that many rape victims feel worthless after they are raped. It has to do with being used and dominated physically and mentally and so on. I doubt anyone can understand it unless they've been through it.

Are you saying that a bloody terrorist attack would not influence you one bit, even when you were watching it?

If you think there are things far worse than death, then go ahead and commit suicide so they'll never happen to you. Darwin at work, people.

Read the rest of my newly edited post.