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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Why are squirrls on islands?
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Why are squirrls on islands?
2006-01-01, 2:37 AM #81
stuff to read for SF_Gold:

MOONDUST

Quote:
2. The most amazing thing about the cosmic dust argument is that it is still being used! It has coasted along on obsolete evidence, and nothing but obsolete evidence, for the last 25 years!! It nicely illustrates how creationists borrow from each other and never do any outside reading.

The obsolescence of this argument has been brought out in numerous debates and published in countless books, journals, and newsletters. It can be discovered by anyone who exercises his or her library card. It's not a state secret! What does it take to get through to the creationist brain??
(http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-yea.html#proof2)

DECAY OF MAGNETIC FIELD

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2. Decay of the Earth's magnetic field

The young-Earth argument: the dipole component of the magnetic field has decreased slightly over the time that it has been measured. Assuming the generally accepted "dynamo theory" for the existence of the Earth's magnetic field is wrong, the mechanism might instead be an initially created field which has been losing strength ever since the creation event. An exponential fit (assuming a half-life of 1400 years on 130 years' worth of measurements) yields an impossibly high magnetic field even 8000 years ago, therefore the Earth must be young. The main proponent of this argument was Thomas Barnes.

There are several things wrong with this "dating" mechanism. It's hard to just list them all. The primary four are:

1. While there is no complete model to the geodynamo (certain key properties of the core are unknown), there are reasonable starts and there are no good reasons for rejecting such an entity out of hand. If it is possible for energy to be added to the field, then the extrapolation is useless.

2. There is overwhelming evidence that the magnetic field has reversed itself, rendering any unidirectional extrapolation on total energy useless. Even some young-Earthers admit to that these days -- e.g., Humphreys (1988).

3. Much of the energy in the field is almost certainly not even visible external to the core. This means that the extrapolation rests on the assumption that fluctuations in the observable portion of the field accurately represent fluctuations in its total energy.
4. Barnes' extrapolation completely ignores the nondipole component of the field. Even if we grant that it is permissible to ignore portions of the field that are internal to the core, Barnes' extrapolation also ignores portions of the field which are visible and instead rests on extrapolation of a theoretical entity.

That last part is more important than it may sound. The Earth's magnetic field is often split in two components when measured. The "dipole" component is the part which approximates a theoretically perfect field around a single magnet, and the "nondipole" components are the ("messy") remainder. A study in the 1960s showed that the decrease in the dipole component since the turn of the century had been nearly completely compensated by an increase in the strength of the nondipole components of the field. (In other words, the measurements show that the field has been diverging from the shape that would be expected of a theoretical ideal magnet, more than the amount of energy has actually been changing.) Barnes' extrapolation therefore does not really rest on the change in energy of the field.
(http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html#magnetic)

FOSSIL RECORD

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As previously stated, a succession of transitional fossils exists that link reptiles (Class Reptilia) and mammals (Class Mammalia). These particular reptiles are classifie as Subclass Synapsida. Presently, this is the best example of th e transformation of one major higher taxon into another. The morphologic changes that took place are well documented by fossils, beginning with animals essentially 100% reptilian and resulting in animals essentially 100% mammalian. Therefore, I have chosen this as the example to summarize in more detail (Table 1, Fig. 1).
(http://www.gcssepm.org/special/cuffey_05.htm)


Quote:
Evidence of Evolutionary Transitions
By Michael Benton

One of the most startling discoveries of the past two centuries has been that all living organisms -- all the millions of species of microbes, plants and animals alive on Earth today -- share a common ancestry. However different an elephant, a dung beetle, an oak tree, and an AIDS virus may look, they can all be tracked back to common ancestors in the depths of geologic time. This insight was first articulated by Charles Darwin in 1859, and new lines of evidence have confirmed his discovery time and time again since then. There are two key lines of evidence:

* missing links
* shared characteristics

The role of missing links is most difficult to understand. Surely, argue the creationists and other religious fundamentalists, if evolutionists claim that all of life is related through a single huge family tree extending from the present day back millions of years to a single point of origin, we should find fossils that are midway between established groups. 'Where are the missing links?' they cry. Palaeontologists have them!
(http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/benton2.html)

PROBABILITY

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Every so often, someone comes up with the statement "the formation of any enzyme by chance is nearly impossible, therefore abiogenesis is impossible". Often they cite an impressive looking calculation from the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle, or trot out something called "Borel's Law" to prove that life is statistically impossible. These people, including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors...
(http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html)

Quote:
How to Evolve Specified Complexity by Natural Means

http://www.pcts.org/journal/young2002a.html

THERMODYNAMICS

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# The second law of thermodynamics says no such thing. It says that heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease. This does not prevent increasing order because

* the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth.
* entropy is not the same as disorder. Sometimes the two correspond, but sometimes order increases as entropy increases. (Aranda-Espinoza et al. 1999; Kestenbaum 1998) Entropy can even be used to produce order, such as in the sorting of molecules by size (Han and Craighead 2000).
* even in a closed system, pockets of lower entropy can form if they are offset by increased entropy elsewhere in the system.

In short, order from disorder happens on earth all the time.

# The only processes necessary for evolution to occur are reproduction, heritable variation, and selection. All of these are seen to happen all the time, so, obviously, no physical laws are preventing them. In fact, connections between evolution and entropy have been studied in depth, and never to the detriment of evolution (Demetrius 2000).
(http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html)

Quote:
This argument derives from a misunderstanding of the Second Law. If it were valid, mineral crystals and snowflakes would also be impossible, because they, too, are complex structures that form spontaneously from disordered parts.

The Second Law actually states that the total entropy of a closed system (one that no energy or matter leaves or enters) cannot decrease. Entropy is a physical concept often casually described as disorder, but it differs significantly from the conversational use of the word.
(http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=4&catID=2)

VESTIGIAL FEATURES

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Darwin was not only convinced by the success of evolution in explaining numerous instances of common descent, but also by its ability to account for vestigial organs, "parts in this strange condition, bearing the stamp of inutility." These organs are of little or no current use to an organism but are probable remnants of an earlier form from which the organism evolved. Intelligent Design has no explanation for these organs. As Stephen Jay Gould has put it, "Odd arrangements and funny solutions are the proof of evolution-paths that a sensible God would never tread but that a natural process, constrained by history follows perforce" (Gould 1980; Gould in Pennock 2001, 670). Let's look at some examples.

Cockroaches and other insects may grow an extra set of wings, as did their fossilized ancestors. Unlike most other snakes, boa constrictors possess small vestigial hind legs. Crabs possess small useless tails under their broad, flat bodies, remnants of some ancestral form. Flounders lie flat on the sea floor and in the adult both eyes are on the same side of the head, but when young the eyes are on opposite sides of the head and one moves to the other side! The earlier stage is a clue to an evolutionary path. The result is a wrenched and distorted skull.

The frigate, a non-aquatic bird, does not benefit from the webbing on its feet. In flightless birds the number of usable limbs is reduced from four to two with the presence of two non-functional limbs. Penguins possess hollow bones although they do not have the same need for minimal body weight as flying birds. Otherwise fully aquatic animals such as sea snakes, dolphins, and whales must rise to the surface to breathe air. Modern whales exhibit several non-functional vestigial traits. Fetuses of baleen whales bear teeth that are absorbed as the fetus matures; adult baleen whales do not have teeth.

Paleontologists proposed that whales had evolved from land mammals with legs, and therefore, in an example of its predictive power, the theory of evolution forecast that legs would be found on fossilized whales. In recent years the evolution of whales from now extinct land mammals has become well documented through newly found fossils from the Eocene epoch, about 50 million years ago (Wong 2002). The fossilized whales contain well-defined feet and legs. In modern adult whales, the front legs have evolved into flippers and the rear legs have shrunk so that no visible appendages appear. Hindlimbs still appear in the fetuses of some modern whales but disappear by adulthood. Externally invisible, vestigial diminished pelvic bones occur in modern adult whales. Evolution accounts for these useless vestigial elements as leftovers in the development of whales from land mammals, but they remain unaccounted for by Intelligent Design.
(http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-11/intelligent-design.html)

Quote:
In Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species (1859) and his next publication, The Descent of Man (1871), he referred to several “vestiges” in human anatomy that were left over from the course of evolution. These vestigial organs, Darwin argued, are evidence of evolution and represent a function that was once necessary for survival, but over time that function became either diminished or nonexistent.

The presence of an organ in one organism that resembles one found in another has lead biologists to conclude that these two might have shared a common ancestor. Vestigial organs have demonstrated remarkably how species are related to one another, and has given solid ground for the idea of common descent to stand on. From common descent, it is predicted that organisms should retain these vestigial organs as structural remnants of lost functions. It is only because of macro-evolutionary theory, or evolution that takes place over very long periods of time, that these vestiges appear.

The term “vestigial organ” is often poorly defined, most commonly because someone has chosen a poor source to define the term. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) defines vestigial organs as organs or structures remaining or surviving in a degenerate, atrophied, or imperfect condition or form. This is the accepted biological definition used in the theory of evolution.
(http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/top10_vestigial_organs.html)

FOSSIL FUEL FORMATION

Quote:
There are three major forms of fossil fuels: coal, oil and natural gas. All three were formed many hundreds of millions of years ago before the time of the dinosaurs - hence the name fossil fuels. The age they were formed is called the Carboniferous Period. It was part of the Paleozoic Era. "Carboniferous" gets its name from carbon, the basic element in coal and other fossil fuels.
Picture of carboniferous era swamp

The Carboniferous Period occurred from about 360 to 286 million years ago. At the time, the land was covered with swamps filled with huge trees, ferns and other large leafy plants, similar to the picture above. The water and seas were filled with algae - the green stuff that forms on a stagnant pool of water. Algae is actually millions of very small plants.

Some deposits of coal can be found during the time of the dinosaurs. For example, thin carbon layers can be found during the late Cretaceous Period (65 million years ago) - the time of Tyrannosaurus Rex. But the main deposits of fossil fuels are from the Carboniferous Period.
(http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/story/chapter08.html)

THE SUN

Quote:
The shrinking-sun argument contains two errors. First, and by far the worst, is the assumption that if the sun is shrinking today, as might be detected over a period of years, then it has always been shrinking!
(http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/specific_arguments/sun_shrinking.html)

Quote:
#1 This assumes that the rate of shrinkage is constant. That assumption is baseless. (In fact, it is the uniformitarian assumption that creationists themselves sometimes complain about.) Other stars expand and contract cyclically. Our own sun might do the same on a small scale.

#2 There is not even any good evidence of shrinkage. The claim is based on a single report from 1980. Other measurements, from 1980 and later, do not show any significant shrinkage. It is likely that the original report showing shrinkage contained systematic errors due to different measuring techniquies over the decades.
(http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE310.html)

Quote:
From Puzzle to Proof: The Creation of a Legend

The puzzling report that there was evidence to suggest a rapid shrinkage of the sun over several centuries was quickly adapted by the "creation- science" community for use as a "scientific evidence," or .. proof," for a very young earth. Without the extended duration of cosmic history, the concept of cosmic evolution would appear to be untenable. And, according to the proponents of "creation science," if evolution over a multibillion-year period did not take place, then creation (restricted to acts of inception) must have occurred during a very busy week about 10,000 years ago. Let us explore for a time how the shrinking sun report has been employed to function as an "evidence" in support of the young earth hypothesis.
(http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1986/PSCF9-86VanTill.html)

DATING METHODS

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Radiometric dating (4)

Creationists argue that radiometric dates are invalid on a number of grounds, despite the massive and detailed explanation of all the dating methods by Dalrymple (1991). They argue that if the speed of light is changing, then all other fundamental constants could have changed, including rates radioactive decay. Some of these arguments are based on supposed changes in the speed of light using uncertainties in such measurements as of about 20 years ago. More recent refinements in the measurements have laid this idea to rest for all but the most committed (see discussion by Schadewald, 1984, and Lippard, 1989, 1990).
(http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/wise.htm)

Quote:
The generation of C14 is affected by the earth's magnetic field. A strong increase in the magnetic field would deflect gamma radiation and reduce or halt the production of C14. Nonetheless, as the creationist idea that the earth's magnetic field has been constantly decaying has been rebutted immediately above, the claim regarding accuracy of C14 data is invalid. Interestingly, if it is true that an increasing magnetic would make C14 dating invalid after 1500 years, the fact that C14 has been used to accurately date historical objects older than this is further evidence that the earth's magnetic field has not been decaying in the matter claimed by creationists.

The accuracy of radiocarbon dating was tested on objects with dates that were already known through historical records such as parts of the dead sea scrolls and some wood from an Egyptian tomb. Based on the results of the Carbon 14 test the analysis showed that C14 agreed very closely with the historical information. ( Dating Exhibit )
(http://www.gate.net/~rwms/crebuttal1.html#mag_field_decay_C14)

Quote:
Radioactive carbon, produced when nitrogen 14 is bombarded by cosmic rays in the atmosphere, drifts down to earth and is absorbed from the air by plants. Animals eat the plants and take C14 into their bodies. Humans in turn take carbon 14 into their bodies by eating both plants and animals. When a living organism dies, it stops absorbing C14 and the C14 that is already in the object begins to disintegrate. Scientists can use this fact to measure how much C14 has disintegrated and how much is left in the object. Carbon 14 decays at a slow but steady rate and reverts to nitrogen 14. The rate at which Carbon decays (Half-life) is known: C14 has a half-life of 5730 years. Basically this means that half of the original amount of C14 in organic matter will have disintegrated 5730 years after the organisms death; half of the remaining C14 will have disintegrated after another 5730 years and so forth. After about 50,000 years, the amount of C14 remaining will be so small that the fossil can't be dated reliably.

To discover how long an organism has been dead (to determine how much C14 is left in the organism and therefore how old it is), we count the number of beta radiations given off per minute per gram of material. Modern C14 emits about 15 beta radiations per minute per gram of material, but C14 that is 5730 years old will only emit half that amount, (the half-life of C14) per minute. So if a sample taken from an organism emits 7.5 radiations per minute in a gram of material, then the organism must be 5730 years old. The accuracy of radiocoarbon dating was tested on objects with dates that were already known through historical records such as parts of the dead sea scrolls and some wood from an Egyptian tomb. Based on the results of the Carbon 14 test the analysis showed that C14 agreed very closely with the historical information.


(http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/dating/radio_carbon.html)

Quote:
The Moon is a more primitive planet than Earth because it has not been disturbed by plate tectonics; thus, some of its more ancient rocks are more plentiful. Only a small number of rocks were returned to Earth by the six Apollo and three Luna missions. These rocks vary greatly in age, a reflection of their different ages of formation and their subsequent histories. The oldest dated moon rocks, however, have ages between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years and provide a minimum age for the formation of our nearest planetary neighbor.

Thousands of meteorites, which are fragments of asteroids that fall to Earth, have been recovered. These primitive objects provide the best ages for the time of formation of the Solar System. There are more than 70 meteorites, of different types, whose ages have been measured using radiometric dating techniques. The results show that the meteorites, and therefore the Solar System, formed between 4.53 and 4.58 billion years ago. The best age for the Earth comes not from dating individual rocks but by considering the Earth and meteorites as part of the same evolving system in which the isotopic composition of lead, specifically the ratio of lead-207 to lead-206 changes over time owing to the decay of radioactive uranium-235 and uranium-238, respectively. Scientists have used this approach to determine the time required for the isotopes in the Earth's oldest lead ores, of which there are only a few, to evolve from its primordial composition, as measured in uranium-free phases of iron meteorites, to its compositions at the time these lead ores separated from their mantle reservoirs. These calculations result in an age for the Earth and meteorites, and hence the Solar System, of 4.54 billion years with an uncertainty of less than 1 percent. To be precise, this age represents the last time that lead isotopes were homogeneous througout the inner Solar System and the time that lead and uranium was incorporated into the solid bodies of the Solar System.

The age of 4.54 billion years found for the Solar System and Earth is consistent with current calculations of 11 to 13 billion years for the age of the Milky Way Galaxy (based on the stage of evolution of globular cluster stars) and the age of 10 to 15 billion years for the age of the Universe (based on the recession of distant galaxies).
(http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html)

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/radiometric.html

[damn, I'm too tired. I'll update next day. Can't think straight]
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
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2006-01-01, 2:43 AM #82
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
I finnaly find SOLID POSITIVE evidence, and your excuse is that your tired?

Well not tired, but I found it on the web... and didn't have to copy an entire encyclopedia.


I'm sorry, I read your demented link, but anything saying **** like Lastly, and most importantly, the Bible says that God created the universe and every living thing, so the world must have been created. is a ****ing piece of sheitcraaaap.

Sorry dude, but it sounds like you're not even trying.
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enshu
2006-01-01, 2:50 AM #83
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
As some of you are, such as Jon'C, are lazy enough to click on a link, I shall post 17 evidences against evolution, that are, not influenced by religion, but no more than 2 occasion that I counted, and still made perfect, logical sense.

1. MOON DUST
Meteoritic dust falls on the earth continuously, adding up to thousands, if not millions, of tons of dust per year. Realizing this, and knowing that the moon also had meteoritic dust piling up for what they thought was millions of years, N.A.S.A. scientists were worried that the first lunar ship that landed would sink into the many feet of dust which should have accumulated.
However, only about one-eight of an inch of dust was found, indicating a young moon.


UGHHHHHHHHHH....


This argument was put on the NUMBER ONE FUNDAMENTALISTS SITE as an ARGUMENT CREATIONISTS SHOULD NO USE (I'd put a link, but it's obvious stupidty shouldn't be encouraged).

This means, if we were to rate you on a scale of one to ten of willful retardation, we'd *HAVE TO INVENT A NEW SUBSET OF NUMBERS JUST TO EVEN REMOTELY HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO EVEN BY FAR APPROXIMATION RATE YOU*

I'd pick the name 'irrational numbers' but it's already taken.

Bill Hicks said it best: ever notice how creationists seem so unevolved?

Read a ****ing book.
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enshu
2006-01-01, 2:58 AM #84
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
Oh? Favorable scientific facts for evolution? Show them to me to bash them with other scientific facts! :p


After this, consider yourself my puppet. I can opy and paste too. And don't even get me started on endogenous retroviruses, nested hierarchies, ...

Edit: actually, no, you are Echoman's puppet. The next 5 days you have to do whatever he says.

Below, I have assembled a series of references and abstracts that document striking evidence for the common ancestry of humans and the great apes independently of the usual paleontological, morphological, and molecular phylogenetic data that we usually see. I first became aware of this through some postings on the internet of Clark Dorman and Don Lindsay.

When one looks at the chromosomes of humans and the living great apes (orangutan, gorilla, and chimpanzee), it is immediately apparent that there is a great deal of similarity between the number and overall appearance of the chromosomes across the four different species. Yes, there are differences (and I will be addressing these), but the overall similarity is striking. The four species have a similar number of chromosomes, with the apes all having 24 pairs, and humans having 23 pairs. References 1 and 2 each contain high resolution photomicrographs and diagrams showing the similarity of the chromosomes between the four species (ref. 1 only covers humans and chimpanzees, ref. 2 covers all 4 species). Furthermore, these diagrams show the similarity of the chromosomes in that every one of 1,000 nonheterochromatic G-bands has been accounted for in the four species. That means that each non-heterochromatic band has been located in each species. (I hope to add a scan of the full sets of chromosomes for all four species in the very near future. In the meantime I'll have to make do with a couple of examples of the most rearranged chromosomes that Don Lindsay has posted.)

Creationists will be quick to point out that despite the similarities, there are differences in the chromosomal banding patterns and the number of chromosomes. Furthermore, they will claim that the similarities are due to a common designer rather than common ancestry. Let's address the differences first, and then we will see if we can tease apart the conflicting scenarios of common ancestry vs. a common designer.

The following observations can be made about similarities and differences among the four species. Except for differences in non genetic heterochromatin, chromosomes 6, 13, 19, 21, 22, and X have identical banding patterns in all four species. Chromosomes 3, 11, 14, 15, 18, 20, and Y look the same in three of the four species (those three being gorilla, chimps, and humans), and chromosomes 1, 2p, 2q, 5, 7 - 10, 12, and 16 are alike in two species. Chromosomes 4 and 17 are different among all 4 species.

Most of the chromosomal differences among the four species involve inversions - localities on the chromosome that have been inverted, or swapped end for end. This is a relatively common occurrence among many species, and has been documented in humans (Ref. 8 ). An inversion usually does not reduce fertility, as in the case I have referenced. Don Lindsay provides a diagram of the chromosome 5 inversion between chimpanzees and humans scanned from ref. 1. Note how all of the bands between the two chromosomes will line up perfectly if you flip the middle piece of either of the two chromosomes between the p14.I and q14.I marks. The similarity of the marks will include a match for position, number, and intensity (depth of staining). Similar rearrangements to this can explain all of the approximately 1000 non-heterochromatic bands observed among each of the four species for these three properties (band position, number, and intensity).

Other types of rearrangements include a few translocations (parts swapped among the chromosomes), and the presence or absence of nucleolar organizers. All of these differences are described in ref. 2 and can be observed to be occurring in modern populations.

The biggest single chromosomal rearrangement among the four species is the unique number of chromosomes (23 pairs) found in humans as opposed to the apes (24 pairs). Examining this difference will allow us to see some of the differences expected between common ancestry as opposed to a common designer and address the second creationist objection listed above.

There are two potential naturalistic explanations for the difference in chromosome numbers - either a fusion of two separate chromosomes occurred in the human line, or a fission of a chromosome occurred among the apes. The evidence favors a fusion event in the human line. One could imagine that the fusion is only an apparent artifact of the work of a designer or the work of nature (due to common ancestry). The common ancestry scenario presents two predictions. Since the chromosomes were apparently joined end to end, and the ends of chromosomes (called the telomere ) have a distinctive structure from the rest of the chromosome, there may be evidence of this structure in the middle of human chromosome 2 where the fusion apparently occurred. Also, since both of the chromosomes that hypothetically were fused had a centromere (the distinctive central part of the chromosome), we should see some evidence of two centromeres.


Human Chromosome 2 and its analogs in the apes

[http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom_2.gif]

The first prediction (evidence of a telomere at the fusion point) is shown to be true in reference 3 . Telomeres in humans have been shown to consist of head to tail repeats of the bases 5'TTAGGG running toward the end of the chromosome. Furthermore, there is a characteristic pattern of the base pairs in what is called the pre-telomeric region, the region just before the telomere. When the vicinity of chromosome 2 where the fusion is expected to occur (based on comparison to chimp chromosomes 2p and 2q) is examined, we see first sequences that are characteristic of the pre-telomeric region, then a section of telomeric sequences, and then another section of pre-telomeric sequences. Furthermore, in the telomeric section, it is observed that there is a point where instead of being arranged head to tail, the telomeric repeats suddenly reverse direction - becoming (CCCTAA)3' instead of 5'(TTAGGG), and the second pre-telomeric section is also the reverse of the first telomeric section. This pattern is precisely as predicted by a telomere to telomere fusion of the chimpanzee (ancestor) 2p and 2q chromosomes, and in precisely the expected location. Note that the CCCTAA sequence is the reversed complement of TTAGGG (C pairs with G, and T pairs with A).

The second prediction - remnants of the 2p and 2q centromeres is documented in reference 4. The normal centromere found on human chromosome 2 lines up with the 2p chimp chromosome, and the remnants of the 2q chromosome is found at the expected location based upon the banding pattern.

Some may raise the objection that if the fusion was a naturalistic event, how could the first human ancestor with the fusion have successfully reproduced? We have all heard that the horse and the donkey produce an infertile mule in crossing because of a different number of chromosomes in the two species. Well, apparently there is more to the story than we are usually told, because variations in chromosome number are known to occur in many different animal species, and although they sometimes seem to lead to reduced fertility, this is often not the case. Refs 5, 6, and 7 document both the existence of such chromosomal number differences and the fact that differences do not always result in reduced fertility. I can provide many more similar references if required. The last remaining species of wild horse, Przewalski's (sha-val-skis) Wild Horse has 66 chromosomes while the domesticated horse has 64 chromosomes. Despite this difference in chromosome number, Przewalski's Wild Horse and the domesticated horse can be crossed and do produce fertile offspring (see reference 9).

Now, the question has to be asked - if the similarities of the chromosomes are due only to common design rather than common ancestry, why are the remnants of a telomere and centromere (that should never have existed) found at exactly the positions predicted by a naturalistic fusion of the chimp ancestor chromosomes 2p and 2q?

Another chromosomal rearrangement has recently been discovered, this one shared both by humans and chimpanzees, but not found in any of the other monkeys or apes that were tested. This rearrangement was the movement of about 100,000 DNA pairs from human chromosome 1 to the Y chromosome10. See "The Promise of Comparative Genomics in Mammals" Science, Oct. 1999 to learn how similar chromosomal comparisons are being used to map the evolutionary relationships of all living mammals.


(Source: http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html)
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enshu
2006-01-01, 3:21 AM #85
To address an earlier point:

Breeds of dogs are distinguished by fur color, size, and body shape.

Races of humanity are distinguished by skin color, size, and body shape.

Races are to humanity as breeds are to dogs.
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2006-01-01, 3:57 AM #86
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
On a side note, lots of recent scientific research have found proof that would fit perfectly with genesis, such as all modern men come from one female that dates back to no more than 6000-6500 years ago according to cell research and stuff like that (forget the link, but it was a VERY long article)


Mitochondrial Eve? Don't talk about anything unless you understand it.

Man... you're-not-even-trying.

But guys, guys, the article was REAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLY long. And it had colors!

You know the notion of 'peripheral route of persuasion'? You are its *****.
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enshu
2006-01-01, 6:31 AM #87
Normally i'd make some amazingly good argument, but I think it's been demonstrated that SF_GoldG_01 is beyond help and it's therefore not worth my time. Needless to say, it doesn't take much understanding of the universe to refute all of the "proofs" as Echoman nicely demonstrated for us.
Detty. Professional Expert.
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2006-01-01, 6:43 AM #88
Originally posted by Tenshu:
You know the notion of 'peripheral route of persuasion'? You are its *****.


<3 !
2006-01-01, 11:31 AM #89
okay, SF_Goldpoopper. It's time to explain me a few things.

If organic material cannot be created from unorganic, that's fine. Viruses are not organic, btw. But that's not the point. Where did your 'God' come from? Who or what created it? And don't give me that "it's always existed"-bulls**t, because i don't believe it. How did God create the earth? or the universe? I mean, where the hell did he get all the material for it? How did he create organic stuff? Organic can NOT be created from unorganic, so where did it come? Why is your 'god' (from now on it's 'god', not 'God'.) the one who created the universe? There are hundreds of other gods out there, and you believe your god is the one? wtf?

Please explain me these things so that i can fit them in my small brain. Don't tell me it can't be explained or that your 'god' created stuff from nothing. It sounds much more realistic that unorganic became organic, than that nothing became organic AND unorganic AND ready human beings. were Adam and Eve black or white people? If they were black, where did the white people come from? what? what? or asian? or you?
Last edited by mb; today at 10:55 AM.
2006-01-01, 1:44 PM #90
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
I will mention some other proofs that can be found on ANOTHER web page, other than the one I posted earlier:

1 Human footprints found inside of dinosaur footprints
2 Evolution has never been observed
3 Evolution would cause all land animals to be like giraffes
4 Growth rate of human societies
5 Pre-human fossils
6 Neanderthals didn't exist
7 Cro-Magnon vs. Homo Sapiens brain capacity
8 Fossils of extinct proto-humans
9 Long "extinct" Agraptalyte fish found
10 Transitional species missing from the fossil record
11 Survival of previous species
12 The genome cannot increase in complexity; microevolution vs. macroevolution
13 Organic material cannot come from inorganic; thus evolution could not have started up.
14 Second law of thermodynamics:
15 Missing geological column
16 Inter-species mating
17 Missing proof


1: dude, that only prooves that the dinosaur footprint was made berfore the human one.

2. because evolution takes millions of years.

3. no, evolution is basicly adaptation on a larger scale. giraffes ecame like they are to feed on the higher leaves that other animals cannot reach.

4: ???. what does socialogical change over hundreds of years have to do with the physical change of all life over millions of years.

5. ummm. that just prooves that things existed before people. you are actualy even contradicting the bible by saying nothing existed before humans.

6. umm... so what are all those fossles that we have found?

7. brain size has nothing to do with intelligence. if it were, whales would be our lords and masters and rule pver us in their fish farms. (a joke)

8. which prooves that evolution happens, those species evolved, but did not survive.

9. soooo... this has what to do with evolution. it just shows that that species was tought to have been extinct, but we were wrong. this has been the case with a number of species.

10. I hate people that use missing fossil records as "evidence", it only prroves that not all fossils survive, and that not everything becomes a fossil.

11. so what, sharks have survived for millions of years. this is becuase they have no need for change.

12. how do you know. do you have a degree in genetics. do you know everything about the genome of every ling organism on earth? no? well, come back when you do.

13. so, by tthat argument, life shouldnt even exist. carbon is not in of itself organic. pure carbon first came about in the development of the universe. atoms of hydrogen fused to become helium, then lithium, and so forth. those carbon atoms joined with other atoms to form organic compounds. (in a chemical sense).

14. what in the hell does the transference of heat between objects have to do with change of species. stop trying tro use analogys of science with other sciences, it does not work.

15. come on. the earth is changing all the time. isnt it possible that it is missing because of the dynamic nature of the earth itself.

16. this is actualy proof for evolution. it shows that these creatures have a reletively recent common ancestor.

17. this argument is just a fallacy. you say missing proof, but give no further details. :rolleyes:
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2006-01-01, 1:52 PM #91
Originally posted by alpha1:
2. because evolution takes millions of years.

Evolution only takes millions of years for organisms with long life spans. Evolution happens every generation. Bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics is a perfect example of observable evolution.

Originally posted by alpha1:
7. brain size has nothing to do with intelligence. if it were, whales would be our lords and masters and rule pver us in their fish farms. (a joke)

Well, not exactly. Brain size relative to body size is what matters. But I'm not really sure what Gold's argument was...since I'm pretty sure homosapiens have bigger brains than their ancestors anyway...

Originally posted by alpha1:
17. this argument is just a fallacy. you say missing proof, but give no further details. :rolleyes:

Hah, I know, isn't it great? "The Bible says it cannot be. Proven. You are owned." rofl.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2006-01-01, 1:56 PM #92
I think the problem is that you guys can't win this argument because Gold doesn't understand most of the evidence he posted, and the same would apply to anything you guys supply to disprove it. :\
2006-01-01, 1:59 PM #93
Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
Ahh theres a point... there are different breeds of dogs, and plants, alas I've seen no different breeds of humans.



because the different types of humans were not able to compete with us.
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2006-01-01, 2:06 PM #94
Originally posted by Emon:
Hah, I know, isn't it great? "The Bible says it cannot be. Proven. You are owned." rofl.


actualy, what was to his own number 17. but yes, I now see how it can work for both.
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2006-01-01, 2:29 PM #95
echoman wins.

kudos to him for taking some time to refute the obviously unsound "evidences" against the THEORY of evolution. that link SF_Golgi_Apparatus provided only affirmed the stereotype that creationists HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

also, golgi, you hear of carbon dating?
2006-01-01, 2:45 PM #96
Originally posted by Emon:
Evolution only takes millions of years for organisms with long life spans. Evolution happens every generation. Bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics is a perfect example of observable evolution.


Exactly, I tried to explain that in the last thread on the subject, using the well known MRSA bacteria.
2006-01-01, 3:11 PM #97
.
Attachment: 9602/squirrel on waterskiis.jpg (43,558 bytes)
.
2006-01-01, 3:15 PM #98
For the record, squirrels can swim.
<Rob> This is internet.
<Rob> Nothing costs money if I don't want it to.
2006-01-01, 4:04 PM #99
Anybody taking bets on whether or not Gold will actually read the stuff you've given him?
Council of 14
2006-01-01, 4:06 PM #100
Since everyone has already gone on a frenzy posting rebutes to Gold's 'evidences,' I'll just do his personal statements (because they're easier :p)

Originally posted by SF_GoldG_01:
Well I will consider this:

Science is not infaulable, neither is the catholic church, neither am I, you or any one on this board.
(Infallible), but yeah.

Quote:
Just because something is being revised constantly doesn't make it true, favorable, etc etc.
It doesn't make it true, but it does make it potentially more favorable. Otherwise, what would be the point of revising? People revise *in order to* make something more favorable, whether logistically, emotionally, otherwise. Revision is necessitated by discontent with the status quo or a desire to improve = make more favorable. Therefore a revision might be the improvement needed to make someone previously unsure or in disagreement, more sure or in agreement.

Quote:
Lots of evolution so called "proof" was falsified.
This is oversimplified and out of context. Besides that, a HUGE chunk of Darwin's original theory has been "falsified" by evolution scientists. If anything, it's good that parts of the theory are falsified, because it drives for further research, observation, revision.

Quote:
One needs to be careful not to see things from the point of view of just the supporters, but from all points of view.
Which is not what you're doing. You're convincing yourself that you're seeing all points of view by simply going along with what supporters of your point of view (anti-evolution) have claimed about evolution because it "seems" like it has scientific ("evolutionists' point of view") basis. When it really doesn't, because (as shown in previous posts) most of it is obscenely out of context, misunderstood, misrepresented, or just plain wrong.

Quote:
Evolution has never been observed.
Oversimplification. Microevolution has been observed many many times. Macroevolution is un"observable" because by definition it requires millions of years. However, it has clearly been indirectly "observed," because (as someone else mentioned), THE THEORY COULDNT HAVE BEEN CREATED WITHOUT OBSERVATION.

Quote:
If we are perfecting, or whatever, how come we seem to be degenerating?
Evolution doesn't require the convergence into a perfect being. It just requires adaptation to the current environment. I can't even say more about this statement, because "seeming" (how so? What basis do you have for this claim? Who observed this?) to be "degenerating" (In what way? Why haven't people noticed? Who said this? etc. etc.) is too vague to even mean anything meaningful.

Quote:
If the world is so old, and lasted millions of years, why are there modern day human foot prints mixed with thoses of dinosaurs, whats more, how come they find fossels of modern day dogs inside of dinosaurs.


Quote:
They keep digging up more proof that modern day creatures existed in the time of dinosaurs.
Besides the point that I'm unsure of the validity of that "proof," that doesn't really mean anything. Simply because they existed then doesn't mean they can't exist now (see: sharks). Evolution doesn't require a species to diverge into different species in a set period of time (omg, after 13023 years, mice MUST become pikachu and beaverrabbits). Furthermore, in order for this point to have any of its intended effect, it must be accepted that dinosaurs existed! (and apparently some creationists believe that God put the fossils there to trick humans)

Quote:
How come the genetics of modern day humans match the time frame of the bible?


Quote:
If spontanous life has not been observed, recreated, how did anything ever come to existance?
Spontaneous creation of things like amino acids have been recreated -- just for a very very very short time.

Quote:
If life has existed Trillions of Trillions of years ago, how come there is no ancient wise species that shows signs of life across the universe, if it had all this time to develop, and were speaking of a big universe where this should atleast happen once with so many possibilities and stuff.
So, how do you that there isn't?

Quote:
You say man wrote the bible... how ever, we have observed how some races of men have just acted on instict and never advanced in any way, shape or form, so with out a proper mentor, or something superior, how would we know the difference between right or wrong?
I'm not even sure what the first sentence ("man wrote the bible") has to do with the rest of the paragraph (because you seem to be implying with the "however" that man in fact did not write the bible), but your question doesn't make any sense. Right and wrong? Right and wrong are human constructs. There wouldn't be a right and a wrong if we didn't create a right and a wrong. "We have observed how some races of men ..." What are you talking about? Are you talking about pre-modern humans, or are you talking about caucasian, etc? In any case, that's irrelevant and logically effectless, because it is not impossible for advancement of a group as a whole or as one part simply because ONE "race" (Assuming this is true) does not advance. Our very existance right now

How come all the things occuring these days is mentioned in the bible?
Quote:
How come you don't take a hint or accept that you could be wrong, and should see things on the other side of the fence for a change.

Why don't you do that?

Note: i omitted commenting on some of these because I'm in a hurry and those are the ones I can't rebute well without some better thought or attempts to understand them
一个大西瓜
2006-01-01, 4:09 PM #101
Post 100 ~@^ SUQRIEZL!
Think while it's still legal.
2006-01-01, 4:12 PM #102
Oh yeah, here's an interesting read: http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal

(I think it's just a short story and not an actual account. not sure)
一个大西瓜
2006-01-01, 4:15 PM #103
Quote:
If the world is so old, and lasted millions of years, why are there modern day human foot prints mixed with thoses of dinosaurs, whats more, how come they find fossels of modern day dogs inside of dinosaurs.


Just a quick rebuttal... it's called walking. People do that. You know, like if you take a step in dirt, it stays there. Let's say, for argument, you have 10,000 year old dirt somewhere. A person in modern times takes a step in it. zOmg! this person must be 10,000 years old because his footprint is in 10,000 year old dirt!
Council of 14
2006-01-01, 5:20 PM #104
Originally posted by KyleKatarn7:
Just a quick rebuttal... it's called walking. People do that. You know, like if you take a step in dirt, it stays there. Let's say, for argument, you have 10,000 year old dirt somewhere. A person in modern times takes a step in it. zOmg! this person must be 10,000 years old because his footprint is in 10,000 year old dirt!

This rebuttal doesn't really work. The point I *think* SF is trying to make but failing to do so is this: it seems odd that human footprints should be found in or alongside dinosaur footprints because dinosaurs supposedly roamed the earth many millions of years before hand. Since it was so long before, many layers of sedimentary rock and sandstone (strata) would have accumulated, thus supposedly making it impossible (or at least, highly unlikely) that a human footprint would be found inside of or near the dinosaur footprint, let alone on the same sedimentary level.
My JK Level Design | 2005 JK Hub Level Pack (Plexus) | Massassi Levels
2006-01-01, 5:31 PM #105
Okay calm down people. Calm down.

SF_Gold : From one Christian to another, don't be so dense.

I'm a devout Christian, and have studied not only the Bible, but have tried to gather wisdom and knowledge from every source possible. I read the works of the philosophers and instead of trying to twist their views to fit my own, I try to appreciate their unique understanding of their world. I study scientific ideas and research other religions. I try to better myself and become enlightened.

Perhaps you ought to follow suite. Read the scientific mumbo-jumbo that they give you. Read it and think about it. Really ponder it. Delight in the idea of other ideas. Try to learn the scientific definitions of words and use them.

The point is this. Please pay attention. If you don't acknowledge this post, I'm going to PM it to you. Try to enlighten yourself. Being a christian doesn't mean that you have to be ignorant. Quite the opposite. It gives you a firm belief system on which to try out new ideas.

Not only do you risk making yourself a better person, but you're actually doing God's work. See, by being ignorant, you give non-christians the idea that we are all ignorant. Don't add to the fire. I don't want to be labeled as stupid because of the actions of people like you, and even more, I don't want other people to go to Hell because they assumed that all Christians are as dense as you are acting.
It took a while for you to find me; I was hiding in the lime tree.
2006-01-01, 5:39 PM #106
Well said.
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2006-01-01, 6:44 PM #107
Originally posted by Daft_Vader:
This rebuttal doesn't really work. The point I *think* SF is trying to make but failing to do so is this: it seems odd that human footprints should be found in or alongside dinosaur footprints because dinosaurs supposedly roamed the earth many millions of years before hand. Since it was so long before, many layers of sedimentary rock and sandstone (strata) would have accumulated, thus supposedly making it impossible (or at least, highly unlikely) that a human footprint would be found inside of or near the dinosaur footprint, let alone on the same sedimentary level.


The point I was trying to make is that rocks shift, those same strata become exposed, and people are certainly capable of walking in and near those prints when they become exposed like that, as they are often found. Usually they don't have to dig for those footprints, they're already on the surface.

And definitely agree with the second previous post.
Council of 14
2006-01-01, 7:41 PM #108
[QUOTE=Vincent Valentine]If Noah's Ark happened like it said it did, all life would be on one continent.[/QUOTE]

Maybe the continents broke up after the storm.
I can't think of anything to put here right now.
2006-01-01, 7:55 PM #109
I nearly pissed myself reading some of Gold's comments and links. BWahahahahaa.
2006-01-01, 8:07 PM #110
Originally posted by UltimatePotato:
Okay calm down people. Calm down.

SF_Gold : From one Christian to another, don't be so dense.

I'm a devout Christian, and have studied not only the Bible, but have tried to gather wisdom and knowledge from every source possible. I read the works of the philosophers and instead of trying to twist their views to fit my own, I try to appreciate their unique understanding of their world. I study scientific ideas and research other religions. I try to better myself and become enlightened.

...

Not only do you risk making yourself a better person, but you're actually doing God's work. See, by being ignorant, you give non-christians the idea that we are all ignorant. Don't add to the fire. I don't want to be labeled as stupid because of the actions of people like you, and even more, I don't want other people to go to Hell because they assumed that all Christians are as dense as you are acting.


Isn't SF_Gold a Jehovah Witness? I thought there was some difference between Christians and Jehovah Witnesses. :confused:
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2006-01-01, 8:23 PM #111
Jehovah's Witnesses are a sect of Christianity, a bit out of the mainstream.
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2006-01-01, 9:03 PM #112
I bet SF_GoldG_01 isn't going to reply to this thread.

Just so you know, I intend to keep bumping this thread until either he fully refutes absolutely every point brought against him over the past page and a half or he concedes the argument.
2006-01-01, 9:14 PM #113
Originally posted by Wolfy:
Jehovah's Witnesses are a sect of Christianity, a bit out of the mainstream.

A bit?
2006-01-01, 9:22 PM #114
I also find interesting that he considers a webpage posted on a "freehosting" site from a guy no one has heard of as "good evidence". In addition, the page he links to comes from the guys site, and the guys site has moved. And the guy didn't take this page with him when he moved, it cannot be found on the new server. Coincidence? I think not. I think the guy knew it was all BS and didn't bother moving it.
2006-01-02, 9:03 AM #115
12-hour bump.
2006-01-02, 9:35 AM #116
Wow, if only I'd seen this before.

Normally I skim read these threads, but this one was hilarious.

/me sits back and munches popcorn
2006-01-02, 11:10 AM #117
Squirrels are cute.
"Jayne, this is something the Captain has to do for himself"

"N-No it's not!"

"Oh."
2006-01-02, 11:24 AM #118
More hilarity to come, I think.

*bump*
2006-01-02, 11:33 AM #119
Squirrels are fuzzy?
"Jayne, this is something the Captain has to do for himself"

"N-No it's not!"

"Oh."
2006-01-02, 11:43 AM #120
Ths thread needs more squirrels, less debate.
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