The more you try to defend the 144,000 number the more ridiculous it sounds. Then the part about there being somewhere else for people to go who don't get to heaven sound a lot like an added change to cover how absurd 144,000 people going to heaven is.

the 144 000 is the number for jesus's kindom, which is probably all ready selected if not almost done. NO person that has set foot on earth will get to heaven. the hell that most people believe in does not exist. forever termination is when the time the evil ends and each person will have a choice, though it may not be a simple choice. and basicly the bad people,demons,satan will be destroyed forever

no person will get to heaven, thats just for God, his [edit/]angels[edit], and Jesus.


that was a nice one kyle, i was crackin up for a good 2 minutes

Then Jesus' kingdom. Whatever the 144,000 refers to.

Does God only let acute angles get into heaven or is there a chance if you're obtuse?

<3

Okay, now we can end the thread. Kyle just won it.

*bows again*

It's pretty bad when I have to win the thread twice. (see page three)

You know, after reading this thread, I feel safer knowing Witnesses don't believe in voting.

That said, I don't really give a **** what you believe, just don't show up at my door trying to convert me, and I won't make fun of you. Actually, I probably will anyway, but only because I'm bitter, slightly crazy, and don't have many friends.

ok im going to post this whole thing simply so there can not be any misunderstanding about it, and this is from the king james version.

[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
[11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
[12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
[17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

now that that is over with... the number 144,000, pertains only to the number of the chosen from the tribes of isreal to be sealed. it never says that this is the number of people who will go to heaven. look for yourself IT DOES NOT SAY THAT!!! there is no definate answer as to what the seal means.


sp: i would like to acknoledge kyles victory over this thread, but i just had to add this post, because what gold was saying bugs the crap outa me.

just on a side thought from statements made at the begining of theis thread... wouldnt breathing and eating get in the way of giving your full devotion to god...

What kind of cookie do you want?

Someone a while back, I think it was Keiran, said that JW's keep to themselves.

Wrong.

They are the only religion whose adherents ever knocked on my door and tried to convert me more than two times. The religion whose adherents did it twice would be Mormonism. And other than those two religions, no other religion has ever done it. If you ask me, JW's are the most pervasive religion in America.

white chocolate chip and macadamia nut from mrss fields please

:p

Hmm. If you remove the Mormons and the JW's from being considered Christians, is Christianity still the majority religion in the U.S.?

These guys think differently.



See my citation of the fact that only one was trained in Biblical Greek and Hebrew.



I'm fairly certain that King James and NIV separately top the the WTS translation, as no one outside the JWs recognizes the WTS as a legitimate organization.



Doubtful. More recorded, yes, but that's due to better methods of recording and sharing of said records (i.e., it's now easier for us to hear about a flood in Europe than, say, two hundred years ago).



If your write-in on the ballot was "Apple" or "Pepsi", then, yes.

Yes, some of us did sell a wheat, that we thought was miracooulous because it grew alot more wheat than usual. How ever, its original purpose was not for sale, and it some how degraded to that, but Brother Russel himself did not sell it. It was originally intended to help feed the world.

See my citation of the fact that only one was trained in Biblical Greek and Hebrew.

We have thousands of people trained in Biblica Greek, Greek, Hebrew, Ancient Hebrew, Latin, and other languages.

I'm fairly certain that King James and NIV separately top the the WTS translation, as no one outside the JWs recognizes the WTS as a legitimate organization.

I fall back on that post... the WTS translation is of the top 3 most accepted world wide, there are many religions that use it.

Doubtful. More recorded, yes, but that's due to better methods of recording and sharing of said records (i.e., it's now easier for us to hear about a flood in Europe than, say, two hundred years ago).

Thats not a valid argument, for every nation records their own disasters, and we put it all together, the last 100 years have still been the most active in natural disasters

If your write-in on the ballot was "Apple" or "Pepsi", then, yes

Some of you are zealots.

And I must admit, some of you have seem to lost your ability to reason.

There are two flocks: the ones that go to heaven with Jesus, and the unknown number of the ones that will inherit the Earth and live eternaly in a perfect life.

The first one is limited, the second is not. Most people think that every one either goes to heaven or hell. Hell does exist, but its not fiery eternal suffering, its just death, you cease to exist, and only God can bring you back. Heaven, is for saints, and there will be people there who were once men, who will help Jesus in his rule over the Earth. They will be priests and kings in the new world. Then comes the majority of people, who will live on Earth as humans, in perfect bodies. The number of people who will live on Earth is unknown, but it is a GIANT number. Few will survive Armageddon, many billions more will be resurected.

You know what would make for some wacky fun? Merging this thread with the "God's Debris" one.

Oh but first you have to cut out the first three pages and merge that with the Stargate thread.

Also ridding your self of useless posts...

Oh by the way, the 144 000 is not speaking of Literal Israel, but of all the nations of the world.

Ok... I have to go right now, so I won't reply anything until a few hours from now... and to NoEsc... why are you not here defending your feith? I could really use your help when I'm not present.

No, it's in reference to the 12 tribes of Israel, or the twelve judaic tribes. It has nothing to do with the rest of the world. Now you're just spouting BS the WTS has given you--and there's a lot of it to spout.

.

How is that even possible? Do really think the numbers go from 100s of millions to a few million in terms of use? That is just silly.




Perfectly vaild giventhe fact that many natural disasters were not often recorded prior to the 1800s. You think that maybe the increase in the human population from a billion to 6 billion in the last 100 years might have something to do with more being recorded? Or that people now occupy more space on the planet and there for are able to record more natural disasters?





Most Ironic Statement Ever



When and why was this added to the JW doctrine? Maybe because the 144,000 number is bogus?

You keep saying that, but you've yet to give me any reason why we should read it as "literally 144,000, but not literally Jews."

Because even your fellow believers have given up on you.

The 12 tribes of Israel mixed with families of all over the world, naturaly they are everywhere now.

But they're still JEWISH.

If the Bible said "144,000 Spaniards", would that include the Mexicans, Guatamalans, and the...the El Salvador...ans? -Ians? -Itos?

I'm pretty sure it's "Salvadorans." :p

Welp, I've been reading this hread to much amusement since its creation, so I figure it's about time I enter it. Probably a bad cal on my part. I have several family member who are Jehovah's Witnesses, and have had some bibile teaching with them as a kid. Of course, I have a complety different view of religion - while it might be a nice way to teach kids morals and feel better about death and some stuff like that, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you really think about it logically. But that's beside the point! It seems like a bunch of people seem to be misunderstanding what our good friend gold and the the JW (sorry, I forgot your name! It's got Matt in it, right?) believe, being JWs and all. So, since I seem to remember this pretty well, Ill try to spell it out simply.

With the whole heaven thing: They believe that 144,000 people will be selected by God to serve alongside Jesus in heaven as a governing body. The rest of the followers of God, those that believe in Christ and all that fun stuff will live on Earth restored to its paradise state as it was before the fall of Adam and Eve. Everyone else ceases to exist.

They don't celebrate any holidays other than the memorial of the last supper (because Jesus said to continue the lord's meal in remembrance of him or something aong those lines because of their pagan roots and simply not having roots in the bible. I think it's a touch too far, but lucky me! I don't have to follow it!

As far as JWs and Mormons being the only peope that go out trying to convert people, I think that's a bunch of bull. We all know about missionaries going to the third world and trying to convert people. Do you really see that as being any different. Christians are supposed to "spread the good word". That's fine for them, makes no difference to me. I wonder if there was a God if he would really want JWs to be ringing doorbells during dinner. In fact, I bet if he existed he'd probably have a special circle of hell set aside for telemarketers too. He also hates shrimp.

As far as the rest of Christianity is cncerned, I think there's a lot of things in there that make as little sense as the 144000 thing. (There's no mention of everyone else going to a paradise in the bible as far as I know, or of the others just ceasing to exist, so it just sounds like padding to make everyone happy)

There's so many fundamental questions about the existence of heaven and hell anyway. The bible has plenty of conflicts within it, such as the whole tribes of israel difference, and I don't seem to remember where it says that ANYONE goes to heaven, aside from the 144000 thing. The concept of hell seems sketchy too. It seems most likely that it was misinterpretation used as a ploy to scare people into obedience and conversion. Keep in ind taht for a long tie the Cathlic church was one of the greatest political powers too (where the crruption really started to set in) - I wouldnt put anything of the sort past it.

So in conclusion - I think both grups should show a little ore tolerance of each other, but, oh yeah, I forgot! We're talking about reigion here. So a cycle of flame/bate until everyone hates each other. There's plenty that could be pointed out about any religion.


(excuse any typos I missed, this keybard is tweaking out on me)

2 Cor. 12:2 - "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows."
2 Kings 2:1 - "When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind..."
2 Kings 2:11 - "As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."


Matt. 5:22 - "But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Matt. 10:28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Luke 12:5 - "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell."
Luke 16:23 - "In hell, [ Greek Hades] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."
2 Peter 2:4 - "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell..."
Matt. 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"
Matt. 13:42 - "They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(that list'll go on forever, so I'll stop).

Revelation 7:
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Prove it.

Many religions use the NWT? Try one.

I love how the same people who never read entire posts, and never have any stance against perfectly logical arguments are also the people who think the thread is far too off topic and that it's useless now. Stop avoiding actual discussion/debate, and start defending, or agreeing against/with ideas. Seriously, you people are detrimental to these threads, NOT the people who's posts you can read over because they insulted someone. Those posts aren't helpful, but they're EASILY avoidable. It's when there's NO response to a well thought out post that the thread loses value.

I believe God is just one of the titles for Nature. And I believe in Nature. That is all.

Word.

What?

HIPPY.

Peace, dude. Heh.