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http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131867

Read the first post on that thread. I was going to post pretty much exactly that here, but I figured it'd be more sensible to just link the thread.

I don't know what the policy is on cross-forum linking, but being a Star Wars forum I imagine some of you must browse LF.

Thank you thank you thank you.

I'm glad other people get wound up by bigotry and trying to justify it.

If you're ever in York, I'll buy you a pint good sir.

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Sadly there's far too little of these people.



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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=marriage

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enacting dictionary.com in this sort of an argument is a very bad idea.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)--@%

the first line of marriges deffinitions says



so gay peeps cat get marryed
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[This message has been edited by BoRnOfFiRe (edited July 17, 2004).]

The funny thing about this is that Cal Thomas said the same thing in the debate on NOW with Bill Moyers. Except that you're wrong. How about the philosophical view of do unto others as you would have others do unto you? Would you like to be sexually assualted as a child? Then legally stop or impose penalties on people doing that. Would you like to be murdered? Then legally stop or impose penalties on people commiting murder. You are forgetting that this "marriage" is a union between two consenting adults. They are not doing anything to eachother that they don't consent to. And if one does, there are legal actions they can take, just like there are legal actions to take if someone is raped in marriage. Morals do not have to come from any one set religion. That is why our country is non-denominational. You can have laws that don't have a religious backing.

As a question, are there any bible verses that lead into laws against pedophilia?

Another question, anyone wanna find all the bible verses that deal with organ donation or the buying and selling of organs?

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Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?

And the fourth definition says: "A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage." What's your point.

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Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?

Guess it's not all that sacred then, is it.

No one can answer "what are morals", it's been philosophized for centuries if there are any "universal morals".

I think there are some, but being as close minded as you are isn't one of them.

Somewhere I saw this statement: "Christians are the biggest reason people don't believe in God."
And I have to agree. Many times I've wanted to drop Christianity as my religion because of other 'Christians'. But I realize that I'm Christian because I believe in Christ, not in other Christians.
There's a plethera of other ways I could find myself associated with people whom I don't wish to be associated with, so there's no reason to single out my religion. Maybe you should consider this, too.

So being "close minded" is "bad". Why?

Being close minded is very rarely a good thing.

Let's put it this way. My sciecne teacher always likes to say "If you were too open-minded, your brain would fall out of your head." That's a nice, catchy quote, but to me it holds little truth value. You want to know why? Because being open-minded doesn't mean you have to accept what's being said to you, it just means that you listen to and respect what you hear.

Far too many people think that if you're being openminded you're compromising your beliefs. Know, it doesn't mean that. It means that your willing to respect other people's opinions and leave them to work out their own issues. You don't have to be a Muslim to be nice and respectful to a follower of Islam and do him the courtesy of being polite when he's talking about his world views. You just don't have to accept any of it, but listening will often times do you a world of good.

In conclusion, being closeminded usually restricts your knowledge and understanding of a situation, people, or issue and also makes those aorund you feel ignored, unwanted, and sometimes even threatened or hated. It is good to be mindful of other's thoughts and feelings and thinking about things from their perspective when dealing in situations of varying and differing viewpoints.

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~ Vader's Corner ~

Obi: It means your opinions are ingrained instead of assumed. It implies you lack the confidence in the truth of your beliefs necessary to honestly entertain alternative points of view.

God do I wish more people at Massassi would do just that. It's not the debates I have a problem with, it's the people who argue in them and don't even try to see your point of view and respect it.

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Put me in the hospital for nerves and then they had to commit me,
You told them all I was crazy,
They cut off my legs now I'm an amputee, God damn you.
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Frogblast the Vent-Core!

Since you are pulling the bible into this, sir... "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1st Corinthians 6: 9-10), "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination." (Leviticus 18:22), "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13). etc... It should be no mystery to anyone that homosexuality is, in fact, a sin according to biblical principles.

What do you mean by non-practicing? I don't think there is such a thing as a non-practicing Christian. But maybe I just don't know what you mean.

...there's so much wrong with what that guy's saying, but I'm not going to go into it right now, cause I'm cranky and thus in no mood to read crap like that. I'll post more on that tomorrow or monday after I've had a good night's sleep.

just thought that was worth quoting again... But, it is important for us to be connected with other Christians. We can't just say, "Other Christians are wrong, because they're not doing what God wants them to, so let's ignore them." Instead, it's our duty to involve ourselves in these other peoples' lives, and bring to their attention their failings in a loving way, so that they might correct them. If you are respectful, humble, and honest, and have biblical support, most people *will* take the time to at least consider what you have to teach them.

Why should I listen to and respect the words of man (if they are contridictary to God's Word) when I have a manual for life written by the Creator of life? I would rather not waste my time listening to someone's wrong worldview when I could be telling him/her about the way of salvation. It's like sales. Yes, you listen to the person's concerns, but if you don't push your prodcut's benefits/worth, because you're spending all your time listening to what *they* think about it, you'll never sell your product. You have to convince them that your product is worth it.
I disagree. I have 100% complete confidence in my beliefs, and it's that reason why I *don't* need to waste time listening to others' ideas, because I know they will only be a waste of the time it takes them to say it. Nothing compares to the truth I know. I do see where you're coming from, but I don't need to "entertain alternative points of view". To me it's just a waste of time because I know that I've already found truth. That is ultimate confidence.

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[This message has been edited by Sarn_Cadrill (edited July 17, 2004).]

No! No no no. Your "job", as a Christian, is to live your life according to God's principles (to be as good a person as you can, I guess). You can bring the Word of God to people who would listen, but you're not some kind of divine salesman peddling Christianity. You certainly don't have the right to tell those who don't belong to your religion how they may live their lives (which is what restricting gay marriage comes does).

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"Look at me! I'm Tracer! BLAHBLAHBLAH!"

-MBeggar

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Sarn, people looking for answers don't need another arrogant salesman pushing a product. You're doing more harm than good.

There are hundreds of Christian denominations that would suscribe to the Nicene Creed and thousands that don't. They all hold at least one view that they believe is divinely ordained that nevertheless conflicts with the next church over.

Having 100% complete confidence in your beliefs is idiocy. You're human. Every one of your beliefs is imperfect. Some because of limited understanding, some because of ignorance, and some because of your incredible arrogance. Your Bible is a flawed translation of a divinely inspired text. Your revelations are filtered through your fall-corrupted mind. You don't fully comprehend it or anything else. Nobody does.

Before you try evangelizing again, remember that you aren't the one who is supposed to know everything.

Or something.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited July 17, 2004).]

This alone seems like a perfectly good argument as to why you shouldn't be religious.

To develop modern society, you have to question everything, to question all around you. This is necessary to develop law, politics, and to understand the universe as a whole. If you live in a world of absolutes, you are severely limiting that capability.
You (probably) think that 'murder is wrong'. Have you ever thought 'why' is murder 'wrong'? What specifically is 'wrong' about it?
No, I'm not asking you to actually answer me, I'm asking you to answer that question to yourself.
You will quite likely come up with various reasons with why it makes sense for murder to be considered 'wrong' (or at least 'illegal'), as I too have, but that process of thinking 'why?' is terribly important.

To simply be able to spout out 'murder is wrong' is utterly useless. To question that belief will result in you 'understanding' it. What you know is irrelevant, what you understand makes a difference.

To answer the question "why is murder wrong?" with the answer "because it is" is not understanding anything.

Note, the reason I choose 'murder' as the question and not 'homosexuality' is that no-one ever really questions 'murder' and that is frequently considered 'wrong' without ever thinking about it.

I really have no stance personally, as I'm not gay, nor am I married. There is no "sanctity of marriage" to violate, as ~50% of marriages end in divorce, but you've all heard that argument before.

My problem is the fact that the majority is limiting the rights of the minority. Sure, it's only gays, but how is this really any different than back in the day when it was illegal for a white person to marry a black person?

I fear that banning gay marriage would be a gateway, not for like people marrying animals or children, but for the government banning other rights and preventing other liberties.

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What once was...

Ow Sarn. While that one link does have some pretty big flaws in logic IMO, please listen to Tracer and Mort-Hog. We Christians made that mistake of associating thoughts of 'sales' and 'salvation' in the same context back in the Dark Ages. To say it's a waste of time to listen to other people is not only being a poor Christian, it's just wrong on a more basic level.

On note of the link provided though concerning the first post on the lucasarts forum, there's nothing wrong with the principle behind 'love the sinner hate the sin." Yes, it's an overused phrase with bad connotations, but all it means is don't hate your fellow man, hate the crap that we all fall into. Dogsrool made a point about why one sin isn't better or worse than another, and unfortunately the above phrase is only used when we have difficulty relating to such sin ourselves (i.e. some of us might contimplate succumbing to one sin but not another).

I was going to follow in this post with my own beliefs on the matter, but I am too lazy to write such an argument/statement of my beliefs and too afraid that said arument/statement would bring about more bad than good, which makes me sad. My previous post should hint at my beliefs, however, and that will have to do.

Because you can't learn with a closed mind. Being closed-minded causes you to have difficulty with logic and reasoning. It inevetably causes you to be arrogant and makes you seem as though you believe you're always correct. It causes you to ignore the ideas of others, even when they're correct. It causes you to blindly follow whatever you believe in without questioning it, which inhibits being able to learn.
None of this is good.
What's your point? Singling out a certain sin... why? Something as simple as lying can cause far more trouble and damage than homosexuality. Why not talk about that? Sin is sin. It's forgiveable (except for blasphemies of the Holy Spirit. Other blasphemies are forgiven. (Matthew 12:31))
Who here has never sinned?
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Case closed. You were not created with a mind so that you may blindly follow God. Learning comes from questioning. If you don't question, you don't learn. Maybe you're not aware, but everyone doesn't accept God by listening to the same recycled stuff. You have to learn about your fellow man (which doesn't hurt anything) and adapt your teaching methods. I'd rather not try to tell someone about God by talking at them.
The 'job' of a Christian is to tell others about who God is, NOT to force Christian morals down their throats. A sin is something that displeases God, so it only makes sense to let God deal with a person's shortcomings when/if they decide to follow Him.
It's a simple thing that most Christians just don't seem to realize. First, it's impossible for a human to be 100% certain of anything. Faith is all we have. Read Hebrews 11. (Also, Romans 14:23 gives a good definition of sin.)
Second, I'm sorry that learning about the beliefs of your fellow man is a waste of time to you. Tell me: How can you minister to someone you don't understand? I've seen a woman just start telling some guy she didn't even know about God, and just kept on like a freakin' telemarketer. It was unpleasant to watch. Christians that do this need to stop acting like a programmed machine when they tell someone about God. It just never works.
Just because you learn about someone elses beliefs doesn't mean you have to accept them as your own.

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For a healty meal, eat mashed potatoes, peas, and catloaf.
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness
Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited July 18, 2004).]

I don't mean to side-track this thread, but I saw this:



I remember reading it before, and it still confuses me a bit. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it?

DogSRoOL, you took the words right out of my mouth. To attempt to sum up everything you said, you can't hope to convert another person to Christianity if you don't first show respect for their interests and pursuits. Why would a person want to be a Christian if you're setting a bad example? Don't shove it down their throats, suggest it to them out of compassion and generosity.

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~ Vader's Corner ~

What about it?

I'm not really sure what a blasphemy of the Spirit even is.

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited July 18, 2004).]

My best understanding of that is blasphemy of the holy spirit is simply refusing/rebuking whatever god or whatever.

So it's damnation by not accepting salvation basically.

I may be wrong, however.

*googles a bit*

http://preacherstudy.com/blasph.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-Holy-Spirit.html
http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/blasphemy-HS.html
http://www.oldpaths.com/Archive/Brown/T/Pierce/1923/blasph-1.html

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"That's why we had to beat you with tennis rackets".
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Ok, open your mind wide and see the point I'm making. Athiesm = No morals so you can be Hitler or what ever and it dosen't matter, and of course niether does homosexuallity. Realy Chirstianity = Morals that are basicaly what ever God says, so if he dosen't want us to be gay cause he didn't make us to be gay then it's wrong to be gay. Yum yum!

Dude I just realized something! People do not have a right to gay marrige or why would they be lobbying to have that right! But then they say they have the right to gay marrige, so they need the right to gay marrige! What the heck is up with that?

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited July 18, 2004).]

Right, because we all know atheists are big hitler supporters!

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

I would say the "Hitler supporters" are the ones who blindly follow, unquestioning, rather than the atheists who "have no morals" ( )

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What once was...

[This message has been edited by Warlord (edited July 18, 2004).]

How old are you?



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~ Vader's Corner ~

Maybe he did make some of us "to be gay" to see what we would do. You know, I'm seeing parallels between you guys and the "mini-mods" everyone so loathes here on Massassi.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Banks and banks of humming machinery! I've never seen so many knobs. We're going to have to do something, Charlie! Try pushing that button there. No? How about that one? No, not that one either. I know! I'll try pushing this one. Hold my hat will you? Good fellow.

Atheists are able to objectively evaluate Hitler, yes. Atheists do not blindly follow a list of absolutes for no reason other than being told to do so. Atheists can form their own personal list of preferences, with no universal absolutes, allowing them to be open and accepting of others. Including Hitler.

Theists will rely on the assuption that "Hitler was evil!!" and just leave it at that, and automatically assume that anything related to Hitler is a terrible terrible thing.

Atheists do not automatically equate Hitler with 'evil', and they have the ability to list the pros and cons in terms of perspectives. Atheists can form an opinion of Hitler based on logic and sense.

Simply saying "Hitler was evil!" is not useful to anyone, evaluationg and understanding Hitler historically and sociologically is useful.

*looks up 'close minded' on google and sees a picture of Sarn Cardrill*

Obi Kwiet, an atheist is not a person without morals. An atheist is someone who denies the existence of god/gods.

Whoa, Mort-Hog must be a Nazi!

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Banks and banks of humming machinery! I've never seen so many knobs. We're going to have to do something, Charlie! Try pushing that button there. No? How about that one? No, not that one either. I know! I'll try pushing this one. Hold my hat will you? Good fellow.

I'm saying that there is no moral objection to being a Hitler if your an Athiest and you know it. Not that all Athients are Hitler supporters. And Thrawn you selectivly quoted my post so it reads very... disturbingly. Take it off please. Any way, you guys keep throwing up tonnes of read herrings, and realy can't as far as I can tell prove me wrong. I think calling some one stupid after they say what they have to say, instead of arguing thier point is about as closed minded as you can get. So unless you have something constructive to say don't say it. And if you must know I'm 15. (in four days)

Um, nowhere does it say you should hate "thy neighbor" just because he sins.

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I resent that.

Also keep in mind that not everyone prays to the same invisible man in the sky that you do. So what you hold as wrong, they might not, but I guess that means they're going to burn in hell too doesn't it?

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I resent that.

You know that Hitler was Catholic?

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What once was...