First, don't take what I said above to too much a degree. I'm not saying that sales and evangalism are the same, merely that there are similar principles. We don't win people by saying, "I think that maybe God might want to, you know, have some kind of personal relationship with you. Who knows... that might be a good idea, huh?" We win people by saying, "God loves you and wants to have a personal relationship with you. You must have confidence in yourself and your beliefs.

Secondly, I'm also not saying that everything I believe is 100% accurate. I'm saying that I am 100% confident that God exists, and that He sent His son to the earth to pay the price for our sins, so that we can spend enternity in God's presence. Beyond that I don't pretend to know all of the specifics. I do have certain ideas and concepts regarding religion that I *believe* to be accurate, but the it's the main concept that I *know* to be true.

So please don't take what I've said farther then I intended. Now on to some quotes:

*cough* "And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." (Matthew 28: 18-20). The Great Commision. It *is* our jobs to "make disciples of all nations." Quite frankly, it's something we've haven't done very well at all. We've gone from one extreme to another, from forcing people to accept Jesus, to not even telling anyone about Jesus.

Right, which is the reason for my initial statement regarding my stance on the ban on gay marraige (check page 1 towards the top, I'm not going to requote it). However, it is my job to get as many people as I can to see the truth.

See what I said above. The connection to sales lies in confidence of the "product" not arrogant pushyness.

As I said above in this post, I have 100% confidence in the core belief/s of my religion, not 100% confidence in my *personal* beliefs. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Generally speaking, you are right, and I agree with you. However, God is not a God who can be understood. I can't answer all the "why's." That's not to say that I don't always try, but if I only believe what I understand, then I'm going to believe in a God who's no greater than my powers of cognition, and that's definately not the God of the Bible.

Well there should be, but the fact that there isn't is unfortunately a fact of our current existance. To me, at least, marraige is a sacred thing.

I've already addressed the "sales mentality" above, but as far as the other stuff, quite frankly, it is a waste of time. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." If I'm following the right path, why should I bother stopping to hear about other paths that aren't going to get me to where I want to go? All they'll do is distract me from the path that is leading me to my goal. I've fallen into the trap of, "listen to others' beliefs and weigh them against your own" before, and all it does is distract me from the right path I'm already following. Now if someone comes to me and says, "Hey, I think you're slipping off the path here. You shouldn't be doing that," or "you should be doing this," then I'll listen, and weigh their advice against what I know of the Bible. But, if they're trying to show me a different path, then I am not going to bother with them. I'm dealing with macro beliefs here when I talk about it being a waste of time to listen to other people, not micro beliefs.

I agree completely. My singling-out of homosexuality as a sin was in response to him trying to use the Bible to justify tolerating homosexuality. I'm singling out that sin specifically because that's what we're dealing with here. I'm not saying it's worse than others.

Once again, all I'm saying is that I'm already on the right overall path. I don't have problems with questioning some of the vaguer details, but most of it's quite clear from the Bible. To use homosexuality as an example, I think it's pretty clear that it's a sin, (see my references above). Because of that, I'm not going to say to myself, "Well that guy's telling me it's ok, so I better try it out and test it to see if it might be ok." I already know that it isn't. Yes, you can learn through experience, but it's so much more painless to simply accept the words of those you trust, and I certainly *do* trust the Bible.

Of course. Paul said that he became all things to all men that he might win some (something to that effect). If my goal is to evangalize to a certain grouping of people, then I'll do my research on that group so that I can tailer my presentation to line up with the things that are important to them, and so that I can present it in such a way that they'll understand what I'm saying. But we're dealing with questioning our own beliefs here, or letting others question our beliefs. Unless they're someone that you trust, and who means something to you, (a pastor, close friend, the Bible, etc.) why bother?

I'm 100% certain that Jesus is the son of God, and that He is the only way to God. I can be 100% certain of that because of the things I've seen/experienced in my life. I don't believe that faith comes into effect there... Where it does is in my believing in some of the more specific things, (the complete accuracy of the Bible, belief that God will take care of me, belief that God will do certain things in my life that He's promised). Believing in God in general does not involve faith for me. In my opinion, you'd have to be crazy to experience the things that I have in my life and still not believe in Him.

Why does it confuse you? To me it's just another thing that we have to just accept. I wouldn't reccomend you try testing God on that issue. It actually kind of proves my point in a way. Not everything has to be tested. Some things we just have to accept without thinking about it.

Finally, I know that my previous post seemed a bit standoffish and crude. It wasn't meant to be so I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. I was *very* tired, and upset about something going on in my life right now, so I wasn't giving as much thought to my words as I should have. But anyway, to sum up everything I've said, I don't believe that everything should be questioned or tested. If we have a Bible that tells us certain things (and generally the Bible is quite blunt and specific) then we should accept these things and save ourselves from the hassle that would be caused otherwise. We live in a society that says "Stay open to everything. Question everything. Weigh everything," but I don't think that's as good an idea as people make it out to be. Why don't we instead rely on the wisdom of the Bible and those that we trust?

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

also:

Riiight. I'm close minded, but this person has judged me, formed an opinion of me, and made a blanket statement about me, based entirely on one post I've made (based on his post count, I doubt he's seen anything else I've ever written here). Look who's calling the kettle black. (Besides which, I think that could be construed as a personal attack, and therefore against the rules.)

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

You know am I the only one that think's it's slightly ludicrous that Uncle George can send gays off to get their heads blown off in Iraq, fighting his war, but if they get injured in battle, their lovers cannot visit them because they're not legally married.

The point is, let gays marry. Or maybe if you're laying somewhere in a hospital with your legs blown off, you'll be happy to sit there alone too.

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I resent that.

I'm sorry you find that portion of your post disturbing, but that's the part I was responding to. It was not my intention to make it "disturbing" and the only reason I so abruptly cut it was that your post didn't adequately allocate seperate ideas their own sentences. I'm not taking it down.

And morals have nothing more to do with religion than books.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Banks and banks of humming machinery! I've never seen so many knobs. We're going to have to do something, Charlie! Try pushing that button there. No? How about that one? No, not that one either. I know! I'll try pushing this one. Hold my hat will you? Good fellow.

[This message has been edited by Thrawn42689 (edited July 18, 2004).]

Um, I wasn't 'testing' anything. I actually don't understand the quote. Apparently some others don't either.

And I don't think I can say anything else on the matter. I feel the same way now I did when I debated with certain people way back when on even simpler issues, and I don't wish to go through that again.

Dern double posts.

[This message has been edited by Gebohq (edited July 18, 2004).]

Sarn, your overconfidence is your weakness.

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What once was...

I'm not saying you're testing something, just that some things obviously shouldn't be tested. And blaspheming the Holy Spirit is a good example of that.


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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Oh please. Prove you wrong? You've given no evidence to back up your ridiculous claim and here's a little fact about debating you might find interesting; it's YOUR job to back up your claim. Burden of proof is a *****, yes?

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

EDIT: That bit about the Chathloics didn't quite come out the way I ment it. Sorry.

Blast in Thrawn, You deleted a whole paragraph out bettween two words!

Evidence? This is a philisphical question! What the heck are you talking about? Your supposed to defeat me by using your rehtoric skills, which as seen by your last post totally stink! Let other people argue me who actually know what thier talking about!

*realizes Jaiph is an Admin* Brian... Help... For the sake of fairness....


[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited July 18, 2004).]

Wait? What's that? I thought you said it was the Atheists who were bad, and Christians were good. But now you're saying that Catholics are bad too.

You know nothing. You're making flawed generalizations about groups whose names you can't even spell.

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What once was...

[This message has been edited by Warlord (edited July 18, 2004).]

Man, you're one heck of a philisphical prodistant!

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

I'm a Prodistant. At that point the Cathlocs were very curropted. I kinda went over board on that though, and I'm sorry if I made it sound like Cathlocs were like Hitler. Oh, and I admit it! My spelling stinks like anything. I need a spell checker tool bar for FIre Fox.

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited July 18, 2004).]

Um, you still need to back up your statement Obi. You haven't delved into the reasoning behind it to support it. In a "philisphical" debate, that is your evidence.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Your faith in your friends is your's!

And by the way, I think it's protestant. I'm not sure though.

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I resent that.

Ok, I can't find any reason the Athiests (Not beliving in any God, standerd ect.) Should belive in stanterds put forth by a God. How's that.

First off, hitler renounced the catholic church, i believe. secondly, The spanish inquisition was a horrible time, and we know that. The church of england had a bloody (no pun intended) civil war over divorces. Many, many churches have bad histories. It doesn't mean they themselves are bad. I could bring up quite a few bad periods in the catholic church. Crusades you didn't mention. It doesn't make me rejeck the moral issues of the church, just the ruling figure at the moment. in the middle ages, there was much nepotism, and as such people got into positions they shouldn't have.

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW
A Knight's Tail
Exile: A Tale of Light in Dark
The Never Ending Story²[/i]

[This message has been edited by Noble Outlaw (edited July 18, 2004).]

You might want to do that, because as long as you can't spell your religion, no one will take you seriousely.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Atheists believe in logical standards put forth by themselves. It's called having a conscience.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

[This message has been edited by Flexor (edited July 18, 2004).]

Just because atheists don't follow the tenets of a specific religion doesn't mean they oppose them. Most atheists believe murder is wrong, just as most theists do. You're basically saying (more so in your earlier post) that because they don't believe in God, they're immoral people. This is obviously not the case, as one does not need religion to have morals.

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What once was...

What dictates morals have to be put forth by a god?

Yes, yes. Exactly. It just shows that all humans are as capable of immoral things as the rest, whether they believe in God or not.


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What once was...

Yes, that's why God, came down on the croos to save us form our sins. And why we could never begin to pay back our sins with good works.

Athiests have morals, but they're baseless, and there's is no reason to keep them. It's inconsistant.



[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited July 18, 2004).]

God came down on the cross?

You mean jesus was born and nailed to a cross..

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Good works are to show you love for God, so yes, you can pay him back through them. Only a little, perhaps, but love has a rahter unique measuring system, wouldn't you agree?

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW
A Knight's Tail
Exile: A Tale of Light in Dark
The Never Ending Story²[/i]

Not believing in religion does not mean not believing in any moral code at all. Morals are essentially logical. Treat others as you wish to be treated is a simple concept. I don’t need to read the bible to come to this conclusion. The societies we all born into also have their own set of moral codes which are imprinted on us. As an Australian things such as mateship in particular are heavily emphasised.

I'm not saying there is anything at all wrong with taking moral cues from the Bible, just that it's not the only source of them.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

I do hate to turn this into a semantic debate, but "atheist" just means someone that doesn't worship a god, not necessarily someone that doesn't follow any "morals". Buddhists and humanists are both atheists but both follow 'morals'.

But I am perfectly aware of what you mean by "atheist", someone that does not follow any religious or philosophical belief. There's probably a word for that. Not necessarily nihilist, mind you.

But anyway, you are technically correct.

The people you're talking about do not have any 'moral objection' because they do not believe in the universal concepts of 'right' and 'wrong'. That does not mean that they have no objection at all to Hitler or actively support him.

But anyway, I'd say that the vast majority of neo-nazis are Christian or Muslim fundementalists.

Oh and don't get me started on "being a Hitler"...

Of course there is reason to keep them, following them makes your life and the life of those around you better.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

OK... God also made humans perfect, and such a state could not be maintained. We no longer exist as we were created, so it doesn't make sense to continually point out one sin above others. All people sin.
You know that Hitler was Catholic?[/quote]You know that toward his last years, Hitler started persecuting Christians, too (and pretty much everyone that could be placed in a group.) Like I said before, you can't minister to someone you know nothing about. Ignoring other people's beliefs doesn't make them non-existant. Certainly it's faith.
Romans 12:3 - "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
Hebrews 11:6 - "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Hebrews 11 is all about faith. You should really have a look.
Matthew 17:20 makes a comment about faith, too.
I strongly recommends reading Hebrews 11 to get an understanding of the importance of faith.
(Technically, anything you believe in you have faith in.) Not everything has to be tested to understand it, either.
Remember: Questioning God = Learning about God.
If God didn't want us to think, we wouldn't have free will.
Genesis 11:23 - "Thou shalt not double post."
You're a sinner and you're going to hell!!! REPENT!! *ahem*
p.r.o.t.e.s.t.a.n.t. It's simple, really. Having good morals generally keeps you out of more trouble than someone who has horrible or no morals. It's a matter of realizing this that causes a person to have good morals.
[Basically, what Jaiph said whilst I was typing.]

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For a healty meal, eat mashed potatoes, peas, and catloaf.
"Massassi's cuttin' into my free time, man."

Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited July 18, 2004).]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

I'd disagree. Morals suggest that there are fundemental "rights" and "wrongs" in the universe, and this is not in any way logical.

Having a set of standards by which you live your personal life but do not judge others by is logical, but this is only possible as long as those standards are flexible.
For most non-religious people, this is based on what is legal and what is illegal. Unless the law is illogical in which case it can be challenged.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited July 18, 2004).]

Yes, I know. I was just making a point, as Obi basically was saying that only atheists lack morals and that Hitler was atheist.

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What once was...

You don't believe everything you read do you?

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I figure that one day I'll either be famous, or in prison. But I guess if I'm going to prison, I should probably try to do something that would make me famous anyway.

But Jaiph , in order to be consistent, the atheist must do only what makes his life better, and if that coincides with Christians ethics so what? I mean, if conquering the world makes you happy and you can do it, it makes you happy, and those who would be around you happy which in turn makes you happy, so why not do that? I'm sure Hitler made the people around him happy. And if your an atheist you should care either, although, I have to admit, right now, it makes your life easier, to live with some-what christen ethics, at least on the outside. There are a lot of very nice atheists out there, but being nice to people makes them happy so that’s what they do. Their just not saved. If you want to view ethics as a code you live by to make your life more pleasant, that’s fine, but its not quite the same term that every one else uses it for.

Uhh, is that a joke Bill? If you take parts out of the Bible, you may as well be an Athiest, because your just making up your own religon.

You seem to think that religion is the only system we have in place in this world, but we have something called "government" that ensures people are punished based on an established code of laws. Although atheists are not bound by religious codes, they are bound by law.



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What once was...

Atheists are people who DON'T BELIEVE IN THE EXISTENCE OF A DEITY. YOU ARE HAVING TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING THIS.

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What once was...

Well, doing something that makes you happy in the short term may not make you happy in the long term. That's still not realy morals. Morals are things you do because you belive they are right, not things you do that make you happy.

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited July 18, 2004).]

Warlord, that point is sort of irrelevant. It's perfectly obvious what he means, even though the word "atheist" is semantically incorrect.


The significant thing about unreligious folk is that they can change. They might follow one set of standards at one time, but when circumstances change they can re-evaluate the situation and form a new set of standards that make more sense logically. They won't be set in their ways and be resistant to change, clinging on to outdated ways and values.

...right, because I'm sure conquering the world would make lots of people happy. When I specified others I meant all others, not just my family and friends. You really seem to have little faith in the intelligence and compassion of human beings.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97