What you're effectively saying is that all atheists are selfish, and that just ain't true my friend.


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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Oh, and it's well documented FACT that Hitler did NOT make those around him happy. By then end of his time, even those close to him were put off by his growing insanity. But that's just a bit of aside history.

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Obi your invisible man in the sky might tell you to hate people that are different than you, but my invisible man in the sky tells me to respect other people's decisions regardless of what I believe, because their beliefs do not effect mine.

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I figure that one day I'll either be famous, or in prison. But I guess if I'm going to prison, I should probably try to do something that would make me famous anyway.

If human beings were intelligent, there would be no reason to argue these issues.

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"We came, we saw, we conquered, we...woke up!"

[This message has been edited by Jedigreedo (edited July 18, 2004).]

Why should an atheist care about others if it doesn’t make him happy? Compassion is something put into us by God to keep us from doing those things. Some of us have less of it than others, though just like some people have less of a conscience than others. It made Hitler happy to kill 6 million Jews. Why should an atheist find that wrong, morally I mean? It probably won't make most atheists happy, because it takes allot of work to get into a position where you could take over the world, and they may have too active a conscience.

As an athiest, you should only make those around you happy if it makes you happy. The whole thing is about making you happy.

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited July 18, 2004).]

Um, Obi...you just answered your own question.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Banks and banks of humming machinery! I've never seen so many knobs. We're going to have to do something, Charlie! Try pushing that button there. No? How about that one? No, not that one either. I know! I'll try pushing this one. Hold my hat will you? Good fellow.

Right, I forgot it's bad to think for yourself, lets listen to a little book instead! That must have some base!

NO NO NO it isn't good sir, being an atheist is ONLY abou not believeing in deities. It is not about happiness or selfishness.

And if you keep going on about Hitler would you please get your facts straight, he didn't kill 6 million Jews because it made him happy, he did it because (not unlike some people) he hated this particular minority set of folk, blamed them for all that was wrong with the world, and took it upon himself to remove them, methodically and efficiently from the planet. It wasn't because it made him happy, it was because he was bigoted and nuts.

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

[This message has been edited by Warlord (edited July 18, 2004).]

This thread is getting funny..

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Yeah, it does Tofu. If you doubt me we can continue this dusscussion in 300 years. There are many arguments on the logical failings of Athiesm, but thier too deep for any one on this thread. (Including me of cource)

Ok, I'm making the point that as an athiest you should only do what makes you happy regardless of any religous morals.

You don't say...

Gay marriage => Gay => Religion => Atheism => Hitler.

In fact recently it's all been punctuated by Hitler...

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Right, but you are following (what you think is) God's word so that you do not go to Hell and so that you go to Heaven.

No-one else benefits from you being a Christian. Surely you are the selfish one?

The reason a Christian does not commit murder is because the Christian thinks that he will go to hell if he does.
The reason an atheist (possibly) does not commit murder is because the atheist does not wish to hurt anyone. An atheist motivation is not out of the fear of God, but because..well..it's just a nice thing to do. An atheist is likely to genuine care about other people, but the Christian is only worried about his standing with God.

Unless of course you believe that every single athiest is a criminal or that every single criminal is an atheist. Neither of which are likely to be true unless you have statistical evidence otherwise.

But really, you can't make judgements on "atheists" because they are not a group. They are an un-group, "atheists" are simply the "misc" catagory. "atheists" don't really have anything in common other than not believing in God.

That is just not true. Religious morals and happiness aren't equated in any way. I can do whatever I like as an atheist. I can do things that make me unhappy for the benefit of others. I don't even have to take credit. It's called doing the right thing. You, unfortunately, are talking bollocks dear boy.

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

I think we just found the reason he doesn't understand why atheists have morals. However, I'd like to point out that many Christians follow morals because they are good people, not solely to get to Heaven.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Banks and banks of humming machinery! I've never seen so many knobs. We're going to have to do something, Charlie! Try pushing that button there. No? How about that one? No, not that one either. I know! I'll try pushing this one. Hold my hat will you? Good fellow.

I've been using Hitler as an example. If you want to call rules you set down for living your life as happily as you can morals, that's fine, but keep in mind some one could call raping every girl he saw a moral, if you define it that way. I'm not say Athiests can't live by Christian morals, it's just illogical for them too. Keep in mind I'm calling a moral something you do because you belive it's right, not just for you but for every body.

No, there is no "doing the right thing". The world isn't simple enough to be divided into "right thing" and "wrong thing".

What may be "right" in your culture may not be elsewhere in the world.

The point of not believing in "right" and "wrong" is to be open to all cultures and not think of any culture as being "wrong" based on your culture.

Ok, bad deffiniton. A moral is something some one does becuse he belives it is right according to his religion.

Being a good person is obeying God. You don't do good things to get into hevan, you do good things because God works in you. Like Martin Luthor said, Your best works are enough to d*mn you to h*ll for ever.

This is kind of a contriversial note to end on, but I have to go eat supper now. Thanks for the disscussion.

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited July 18, 2004).]

Sorry, I should've expanded on that, I was thinking of a specific thing - I was interested in a girl, someone i was very fond of, but someone I knew also was. I knew that those two had serious mileage in a potential relationship, so I stood aside, not saying anything to anyone. They're moving in together next year. I'd like to say I did the right thing. It doesn't matter that I'm lonely because of it, because I did something I would judge (subjectively, obviously) as right.

Hope that clears it up


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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

I do actually agree, I think "moral" is defined as something that is universally "right" or "wrong".

This is why I think it is much more benficial to not have any "morals".

Many atheists have morals because they're good people too. They just don't think they'll be rewarded for it. Christians just think they're shootin for a prize at the end of the game.

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I figure that one day I'll either be famous, or in prison. But I guess if I'm going to prison, I should probably try to do something that would make me famous anyway.

I wasn't going to post again, but...

1) Mort: Some of us Christians don't do things like murder because we don't want to hurt our fellow person too and not out of fear of hell.

2) Mort: earlier you were takling about set rights and wrongs being illogical. Last I checked the nature of truth was still up in the air, and logic could go either way.

3) I have sinned, please forgive me for double-posting!

Let's ask the english language:

moral

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

Notice the lack of the word religion. This is because religion is only one of many possible sources of morals as many many people have been saying for the last few pages.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Dead wrong. Look it up in a dictionary. Morals are standards of behavior. ANY standards of behavior. That's why my morals are different from yours, and why this thread exists in the first place.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Banks and banks of humming machinery! I've never seen so many knobs. We're going to have to do something, Charlie! Try pushing that button there. No? How about that one? No, not that one either. I know! I'll try pushing this one. Hold my hat will you? Good fellow.

hhhmmmm....

Quoting a historical religious REFORMER.

Perhaps reform could be perhaps such things as tolerating homosexuality?

(See what I did there?! Is that ReRailing a thread? )

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

'Morals' are not the same as 'opinions'.

This reminds me of one of my favorite movie quotes..

"You're wrong. I do believe in God, I just ****ing hate the guy."

Cookies to anyone who guesses where that's from.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Uhh, reform generally happens because the Church is not following something accurately... I think we've pretty well established that homosexuality is considered a sin, according to the Bible.

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

gay marriage is wrong and bush should outlaw it.

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I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is to try to please everyone.- Bill Cosby

We're told by the bible that killing is a sin, yet we're directed to execute anyone working on the sabbath. We're told to execute any unruly children. God himself is responsible for more killings than anything else. More people have been killed in the name of god than anything else. Your bible has so many contradictions it is rediculous.

Do you realize there were dozens of stories about messiahs back in the day of Jesus? Are you telling me that half of the things you read in the bible are possible? Not to mention the things they teach you at church.

Let's start with Noah's Ark. One of the biggest bull**** stories in the bible. Noah, a regular guy, collects 4 billion species and takes them on a boat. A big ass boat. He takes them and then it rains and rains and rains. Then, magically distributes them back to their correct locations. Alright, now assuming that Noah isn't killed by one of the more dangerous animals on this little voyage, he would have died of old age by the time he had collected all of these animals and then put them back. And don't go saying he didn't have to collect the 4 billion species we have today, because your bible tells us that evolution is bull****. So every last one of them had to be around back then.

Which brings me to my next point. Dinosaurs. All good christians are taught that dinosaurs are myths. You know it's not like we have bones or anything. I know catholics that will argue this til their dying day.

Then there's moses. That was one busy dude. He walks on over to Egypt to free the Jews. There is no record of the Jews ever having been enslaved to the Egyptians. We just "know" they were. So the pharao says hell no they won't let em go. So moses talks to the man upstairs and the man upstairs sends all kinds of hell down to Egypt. Turns the water to blood so the fish die, kills their cows, makes them have acne from hell, all the frogs and grasshoppers you can eat, and finally after a few more things kills their kids. (remember, it's a do as I say, not as I do kind of thing). So finally, after all of this, the Egyptians let em go. Don't you think after seeing an infestation of frogs and seeing water turn to blood, you'd kinda get the hint? Anyway. So then moses takes them across the desert and parts the red sea. Ok, once people became skeptical about this story we got this reed sea bull****. The reed sea supposedly dried up all the time, so more or less they say (now) that moses just took them across another stretch of slightly moist desert. Where's the f*ckin miracle? That sucks. Bring back the red sea. It might be impossible but at least it's climactic.

On to bigger and better things. Jesus. The man himself. Performs miracles. Yeah, so does david copperfield. And Jerry Fallewell. I rest my case. But they kill him. And then he comes back to life. And how many people actually saw him after he came back to life? No they found the tomb empty and that's about it. Well being that the rest of religion is pretty much a fabrication, who's to say that they didn't break in and take him. Or that they just never went in there to begin with.

So much of religion depends on faith. And so much of it is contradictary. We're told that men with long hair are bad. Jesus had long hair. We're told not to kill. We're told to kill anyone that works on the sabbath. We're told not to sleep with another guy's wife, but if we do we can go tell a pedophile about it and it'll all be ok. Bull****. Don't give me your bible quotes. I don't want them.

By the way, who wrote it?

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I figure that one day I'll either be famous, or in prison. But I guess if I'm going to prison, I should probably try to do something that would make me famous anyway.

Don't forget genetics. Take only two specimen, one male, one female, of a species, force them to breed and I will guarantee you after two or three generations, they'll all be dead.

But hey, no use in trying to explain this to someone who's immune to logic.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

I was gonna respond with this:

-----------------------------------------------





Atheism /= No morals. I'm betting that you did not even consider my post, which is in fact rather close-minded on your part. A lot of my morals are based of a do unto-others basis. I'm not going to become another Hitler for the simple reason that I would not want other people to take all of the property belonging to myself and my family, then take us halfway round the country to live in poverty and malnutrition which would lead to my inevitable death by disease, malnutrition, or gas chamber.

"so if her dosen't want us to be gay cause he didn't make us to be gay then it's wrong to be gay Tum tum! " Your logic is wrong in two spots... How could it be wrong to be gay if god never created us gay? (Yes I realise that you can fall into sin, such as homosexuality, but then what does that mean for our suppossed innocence at birth? That some people aren't innocent at birth and are already sinners?) And, how about the many gay people who say that as far back as they can recall, they've been gay? Are you just going to tell them that you know more about them than they do?

"Dude I just realized... ...the heck is up with that?" Hmmm, I recall slavery was pretty much the same way, as well as segregation. If they said that they had the right to being treated equally, yet had not that right in the first place, what justifies their new equality? That kind of logic sounds very childish and un-thought out.

"I'm saying that there is no moral objection to being a Hitler..." As I've just now stated twice, there is a moral objection to becoming a Hitler.

And, I fail to see how Mort-Hog's analysis was a red herring. Just dismissing earnest counter-points as false without thought is very close-minded, and then claiming that you haven't been proven wrong without even considering the other points of thought is doubly close-minded.

"I think calling some one stupid after they say what they have to say, instead of arguing thier point is about as closed minded as you can get." Umm, read your own statement, and evaluate it as it pertains to yourself. I still would like to point out that Mort-Hog did not do that and yet you are dismissing everyone who debated you without reason...

Obi, I'd like to ask you, how many books do you read in an average week? How often do you go out into the world and talk with people? Do you see people different from your own beliefs and try to understand these people? And don't tell me that there aren't opportunities for you to go out into the world. My latest Faculty-Advisor joined a program when she was 16, which sent her to a poor village in South America for about a month. She had to learn how to converse in spanish, was forced to see that everything is not as clear as it looks when you aren't starving, or have just worked your ass off all day. She had to be alone with this village for a week, because she would only be visited by a supervisor once a week. Now then, college isn't quite as eye-opening as that kind of experience, but it does do something to open you up a little more to other points of view. Remember, empathy is always a good thing. I'd like you to prove to me sometime when understanding what another person is going through isn't advantageous. And now to tie it in with homosexuality. Do you understand what it's like to live as a homosexuality? To go through the constant pressure to conform, to change an aspect of themselves that they didn't pick, that they know of no way to change. I know what that feels like. I've been a shy kid for as long as I can remember. As a child I lived with it. I excepted it as me. As unchangeable. I've been trying to change that about myself since I got into Middle School. But you can't do that as a gay person. If they could change, then why would people be fighting for gay marriage. If it could be changed, it would be seen as something inborn but a personal struggle that that individual should overcome.

Open-mindedness is the keystone to human social relations. In no way shape or form can you get along with any other human without some form of open-mindedness. The more open-minded a person, the more people that person can successfully understand and converse with. Open-mindedness is the driving force behind secular beliefs. How can you tolerate another faith's beliefs in order to coexist with a nation full of different people, if you cannot understand what direction they are coming from? In response to Mort-Hog's statement about Atheists, yes, that is generally true. If found that proportionately, more Athiests are tolerant of more people than people of religion. Because they have no original bias towards a religion, they make decisions based more on logic and understanding...

Here's a story for you, and I'll give a cookie to the person who knows what author this idea originally came from.

On the planet Path, there live a population of ethnic chinese. Before Path was colonized, several members of the original colonization team were genetically egineered by the Starways Congress, the governing body of all of the federated planets. These genetically engineered people were enhanced into being much more intelligent than normal. But included with the intelligence was a motivator that if that being ever disobeyed or had a thought of disobeyance, a gene for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder was triggered, sending the person into fits of obsession such as washing their hands repeatedly or tracing lines in wood. The people of Path had a religion that said that the Gods spoke through certain people... Whenever the genetically engineered people went through the OCD, everyone thought it was the Gods talking to them.
Move forward a couple dozen generations, and we find a girl who is being raised to be yet another God-Spoken. In her teachings, she is told that the reason the people of Path follow Starways Congress is because it had the Mandate of Heaven. And that if it was ever overthrown, it would have lost the mandate of heaven.

----------------------------------------------

But while I was writing this, it all pretty much got said...

[EDIT: and if you couldn't figure it out, the story wasn't finished when I went to look at the topic again...]
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Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?

[This message has been edited by Axle (edited July 18, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Axle (edited July 18, 2004).]

I was going to come up with some sharp, witty reply, but then I decided to post this, for Obi's sake.

"Now you will receive us. We do not ask for your poor or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick. It is your corrupt we claim. It is your evil that will be saught by us. With every breath we shall hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood ‘til it rains down from the skies. Do not kill, do not rape, to not steal. These are principles, which every man of every faith can embrace. These are not polite suggestions, these are codes of behavior and those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost. There are varying degrees of evil. We urge you lesser forms of filth not to push the bounds and cross over into true corruption, into our domain. But if you do you, one day you will look behind you and you will see we three, and on that day, you will reap it. And we will send you to whatever god you wish. And shepherds we shall be, for thee my Lord for thee, power hath descended forthfrom thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command. We shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."

From Boondock Saints, if you didn't know.

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Some of you should learn to think a bit and discover - *gasp* - that someone can dislike Michael Moore, Kerry, and Bush!
-Wolfy

Um...that's pretty much why anyone helps anyone else, because it makes them feel good. Some do it for a higher cause, but almost all everyday favors, even larger ones, are because it makes people feel good when they help others. Ask someone you know who has that kind of personality, they'll tell you.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

William Blake famously said that in his poem "London". Personally I disagree, because it says that all men are corrupt and selfish.

But though, I see your point, check out my reply to Mort-Hog. Sometimes people can do selfless things, not just because being good makes them happy, because doing something good for the good of others is hard. Soemtimes you don't get anything back, not even a sense of satisfaction.

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Pitch Black I believe. One of the few movies that wasn't ruined by Vin Diesel's acting - perhaps the only one?

Sigh... I'm just trying to say that, according to atheism there is no right and wrong, so according to atheism, Caligula is no worse a person than Mother Teresa. Maybe "moral" was the wrong term for what I'm trying to say, but I can't think of a better one. An atheist Moral could be something like murdering every one who gets in his way. The bottom line is this, if your an atheist you can't condemn homosexuality for being bad, but you can't condemn something like murder for being wrong either. All clear now?

Uhhh, Jedi hunter, are you a Catholic or something? What is Boondocks Saints anyway? Is that part of one of those Catholic expansion packs? : P We are all commanded to do right but we can't. Even if we give a million dollars to the poor we are doing it to make us feel better, not to the glory of God, so that makes it a sin. Many people just can't accept that they are too sinful to be able save them selves. A real good work would be flat lining right at the standard. It doesn’t even begin to make up for our many sins. The truth is God can't just look over sin. That’s why he sent Christ to die on our behalf.


[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited July 19, 2004).]

No, we're not told that killing is a sin. We're told that murder is a sin. There is a major difference. Killing is justified, murder is not. There's basically two things that justify it. 1) self defense - if someone comes at me with a knife, I'm sure as heck going to make sure he doesn't use it. 2) ordained by the government - ie death penalty (such is the case with the working on the Sabbath that you mentioned, that is a punishment for a crime, not murder). Also, I don't think it says anywhere in the Bible that we're to"execute any unruly children." If you can point me towards what you're referencing then we'll talk about that. The only thing that I know the Bible says about unruly children is not to hold back physical punishment from them. (Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 22:15, Proverbs 23:13-14). Those are not telling us to kill unruly children, simply to punish them physically. BUt like I said, if you know of something I don't then by all means post it.

I know you'll hate this answer, but God did it. I believe in a God that is omnipotent. If he can speak the universe into existance, then why couldn't He gather up all the animals like that? I do agree with you that it doesn't make sense scientifically, but then our God is not limited by science. He created it.

Not true. I'd reccomend you get your facts straight before you make a claim. Nearly all christians believe in the adaptation of animals to suit their changing environment, resulting in different "species." (ie, different breeds of dogs, etc...) What we don't believe is the bottom line. That life was created without God. How could it have been? If there's one thing that science has proven over and over it's that life will not create itself under any circumstances.

(I knew this thread was missing something... A C vs E debate! )

I don't know what the Chatholic viewpoint is on this, but check out Job 40 and 41. (start at verse 15 of ch 40). What do you suppose this "behemoth" is? The footnotes of many translations suggest that it's a hippo or an elephant, but hippos and elephants do not have tails "like a cedar." Then ch 41 goes on to describe the "leviathian" which the footnotes generally suggest to be a crocodile, except that the passage discusses the futility of catching one, and crocodiles were often caught and killed in the time that was written. Many christians do believe that those passages are describing dinosaurs... I'm not going to get into how that fits historically because then we *will* be steering this towards a C vs E debate, but suffice it to say, "All good christians are *NOT* taught that dinosaurs are myths."

Right... and those pyramids built themselves.

The bible also says that God hardened Pharoh's heart. Why? Some suggest that Egypt needed to be put into such a sorry state, in order to ensure that Jews were able to get away and not have any trouble with Egypt trying to re-enslave them later...

God has a right to take life. He created it. We have no such right. (If I build a house, I have every right to bulldoze it to the ground afterwords if I so desire, but that doesn't mean I can bulldoze my neighbor's house.)

I haven't heard anything about that, but I think the parting of the red sea is pretty literally described, and anyone who changes the story to be more believable is in my opinion misaccurately translating the word of God and stealing the power out of it. Also, what do you base your beliefs on? You don't like the more believable story so you choose to believe the "impossible but climactic" story? I believe it because it's written that way in the Bible, not because it's cool.

That's a pretty poor case. Let me wnow when David Copperfield raises someone from the dead who's been dead for 3 days. Point out to me the next time Jerry Fallewell feeds 5000 people with some bread and a few small fish. Do you think anyone will know who David Copperfield is 2000 years from now?

I don't recall the actual number but well over 100, according to prestigous biblical scholars.

Yeah, the priests thought of that too. That's why there was *a guard* posted outside the tomb to ensure there was no foul play. ""Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how." So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard." Pilate gave them complete authority to make the tomb secure. The priests utterly hated Jesus and his followers. Don't you think they'd have spent some time to make sure the job was done right? Besides which they had the resources of the temple behind them to fund their security measures. They had the motivation, the resources, and the complete authority to make the tomb as secure as possible, and yet a rag-tag group of Jesus' followers (who were mostly fishermen and tradesmen, not soldiers) were able to circumvent this security and make off with Jesus' body? Sounds a bit far-fetched to me.

And that's a problem why? No one said it didn't.


1) First, where does it say Jesus had long hair? Nowhere. The idea that he had long hair came from the European artists' depictions of Jesus, which, quite frankly, are a load of hogwash, according to most historians. Second, who says that men with long hair are bad? The Bible doesn't. What it does say concerning long hair on men is that it's unnatural ("Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,"), but it then goes on to say that though it is unnatural, it isn't that big of a deal, it's just weird. ("If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.")

2) Again, we're not told not to kill, we're told not to murder. I explained this above.

3) I can only assume you're talking about Catholic confession, and I'm not even going to go there. But you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The Bible does not say, "Sins are ok, as long as you confess." What is says, (more or less) is that "Sins are evil, and an abomination, but if you confess and turn away from your sin, God will be faithful to forgive you." God knows we can't be perfect, so He doesn't expect us to be. He does expect us to do our best, though, and to admit when we screw up...

In other words, you'd rather just believe the wrong things that you believe about the Bible, rather than figuring out where you've gotten the wrong end of the stick, and revising your opinions... And it's us Christians who are close minded... right.

What the Bible? It was written by various men throughout history who were inspired by God.

Generally speaking you're right, and I know this isn't the answer you want to hear, but with God all things are possible. Genetics and science aren't a roadblock for Him. (and don't bother trying to argue me on this point, cause we're coming from two different viewpoints here, and I know it won't go anywhere... This is one of those faith issues. I believe that it happened, because I believe that the Bible is true. I know it's scientifically impossible, but that's irrelevant to me because I believe that God is not restricted by science. I don't expect you to agree with me or believe it, just please respect where I'm coming from and let's leave this one alone, ok?)

I do understand the whole genetic diversity thing, and I'm not immune to logic. It's very logical to me in fact that if God is able to determine parameters for the universe, then he's able to bend or break them when necessary. But like I said, nothing good will come from arguing this point, so let's just leave it.

Orson Scott Card, Children of the Mind (or one of the books belongning to that series). But, I don't see how that fiction story has anything to do with what's being discussed here, so you'll have to clarify your point.

That's actually quite correct. Like it or not, every single motive for our actions can be boiled down to the action being advantagous to us in some way.

Newsflash. All men (and women) are corrupt and selfish. Show me a single shred of evidence that says we're not.

I don't think that's true. Have you personally ever helped someone, and not felt good about it? Then why'd you do it? Even if it is difficult, or inconvenient, it's still worth it because afterwords you feel like you've been a light in someone's dark day or made the world a slightly better place or whatever.

You've got to be joking... His acting in that movie was horrendous... Actually, if I had to pick on that wasn't too bad as far as his acting, I'd say The Fast and the Furious. But meh...

I understand what you're saying, and kind of agree with you... It's kind of like, "Who cares how I act or what I do in this life? Once I die it won't make one bit of difference to me anyway." But at the same time, I do know that many Atheists/Agnostics do live by a moral code... I don't know what drives it, but it is there.

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And now, since this thread *has* become a catch-all for religious topics, I'd like to share something I've been thinking about lately. Have you ever considered that humanity's desire for God is literally proof of God's existance? Think about it for a minute. Everything that we ever desire is something that exists. (For example, I'm hungry, I desire food. I'm lonely, I desire companionship, etc... I can not recall ever desiring Gulbafrang (isn't if fun making up words?) because it's not something that exists.) What are your thoughts on that?

[edited for typos]
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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[This message has been edited by Sarn_Cadrill (edited July 19, 2004).]

Yes, (some) atheists do not believe in "right" and "wrong".

Now read all of my previous posts about this concept about how not having absolutes is significantly more useful.

Mort-, i personally would be /very/ interested in how the world would have turned out had say the Aztecs become the dominant culture as opposed to indo-europeans. There's actually a book about it come to think of it that i read a while ago, something about redeeming columbus or something.

But as much as i try to be open-minded and all that, the Aztecs were /not/ a culture i would wish to have a strong voice in Diversity, they were one of the most incredibly violent cruel and blood-thirsty cultures i've ever learned about in a history course [with the possible exception of some of the neo-babylonian groups]. I have a /very/ hard time accepting a culture so based around human sacrifice and mutilation and blood-drinking and all that as simply /different/, and not /wrong/.

As someone quoted earlier, there are things that seem to be basically universal, don't murder steal rape and so on, the first two there may be justications or reasonings behind or whatever, but the last one i think anyone would be /very/ hard-pressed to come up with how that is just not always and utterly wrong and without excuse.

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