I was assuming that the situation circumstances did not have phone available.

JLee:
I suppose it's just the mindset that comes off when you talk about having to kill or be killed. It clashes with civilian-life principles, since we ideally should never be crazy enough to murder someone possibly giving others an intent to kill in defense. I know the world isn't perfect, what I'm trying to say intent to kill, defensive or otherwise, is still intent to kill and constantly reminding people makes people believe for a second that maybe killing could be a solution. There are crazies out there who get these ideas.



wat.
I'm not arguing courses of action here, but that people shouldn't feel so motivated to kill.

I dont think its "motivation to kill" when the threat is an occupational hazard

What's with your obsession with 'the intent to kill'?

I have not said that I intend to kill. I am trained to neutralize a threat when necessary. If such a situation ever arises, I will make a decision whether or not to neutralize said threat. If it is a deadly force scenario, whether the individual lives or dies is irrelevant. Once the threat has been neutralized, we secure the area, cuff the suspect and administer first aid as necessary.

You may see it as the same thing at first glance, but it is a completely different concept. The goal is to stop the threat, not to kill anyone.

You don't make the so-called community safer by practicing violence, as you don't fight fire with fire. It works sporadically and conveys the illusion of logic, but it's so backward that it must be the solution. Lies can't get that large, can they? I'm here to say they can and do.

When you come up with a better way (instead of physical force, oleoresin capsicum, batons, Tasers, etc.) to get an uncooperative guy under control and in custody, start selling it. You'll become rich.

"I will put you in a bag." Not my words. Very different from "neutralize the threat."

THIS IS A VERY GOOD POINT MB

leave in, put in, w/e.

mb:
I know it's an unfortunate occupational hazard but having this mindset of "i will make you leave in a bag" only inspires others to think the same thing for their own sake, and if we didn't have this, there wouldn't be an occupational hazard.

Damnit, man. If you're going to quote me, do it right.

OK... assuming you're right, and we shouldn't fight fire with fire, should the cops use water guns on armed crimminals who are firing at them?

At ACE 1:

What I think JLee is saying is, when an office is fired at, he must return fire for his safety and the public's safety. A cop shoots to kill.

Anarchy Ace, you should just stop now. you dont know that people are going to think that way. they arent little kids. they know better. most do anyway. not everyone is in it for the power. you think teachers go into teaching for the money? clearly they dont. some people genuinely care for others.

I'm actually pretty sure he's mentally handicapped, but I don't know whether it's the things he does in that video, the things he says in that video, or his accent that contributed most to that impression.

Regardless, his courage is the kind you only see in a person who has no idea what he's getting himself into.

First of all, selling and becoming rich are every bit as violent as cops 'n robbers. They are the reason for cops and robbers, really. Ask yourself: who do cops serve? When it comes right down to it, corporations. If there's a dispute between a corporation and an individual, the individual loses every time. When the cop shows up at the scene of the incident, he will immediately side with the party with the largest coffers. It is the unspoken modus operandi of the police force, ingrained in them since childhood through inumerable social cues. The police are there to make sure we don't smash Starbucks' windows in when we get fed up with how much we're getting ****ed up the *** by the system every day and decide to riot. They're there to make sure that morally upright people are stripped of all their freedoms for smoking a goddamn plant. Police don't prevent crime—they create it. For each policeman pointing a gun at the populace, three people in turn will automatically resist due to such unprovoked violence.

Sorry to disappoint you, JLee, but I have no intention whatsoever of 'getting rich.' I instead choose to be rich in the areas of life that actually matter. And if you want a solution to all the violence, it's actually pretty simple; Get lost. Disperse. We don't need people who create violence in our communites. Try treating people with different ideas with a little respect, and you'll find that almost all of them are good people. For those very few people who are truly violent comparatively, mob justice more than suffices. And without inherent societal violence, you may just be surprised to find such mob justice nonviolent overall.

One nut to another, go see a shrink, honestly.

You know what you said. Yes, I'm arguing a choice of words, because they seem to be reflecting an overall mindset. You could have at least said something more like "in handcuffs," but instead it came off as more emotional and outbursting.

SF_GoldG_01:
I still don't get why you're telling me this as if I don't know it. What gets me is how they can talk about it as if it's God's own will or that they are the chosen ones to do it or something. It happens, but it's not right regardless. Don't say it is, and maybe others wont think pulling guns on cops for their own versions of whats "right" is a good idea either.

andreawesome:
When did I mention power? Yes, I believe most people do things for a greater good, but the things said here quickly erode that. Life and death situations obviously happen, but you don't talk about it with the stigma "whoever attacks me deserves to die." MAYBE the Judge and Jury get to decide that, but even then some people don't even let that slide religiously.

well maybe if people didnt suck so much we wouldn't have to argue bout how much of an *** Jlee is! Cause if people didnt suck, then JLee wouldnt be an abusive trigger happy guy! RIGHT!?!?!?!?!

haha wait that was a joke!

Chyeah!
Somehow though I really doubt freelancer believes what he's saying

Sigh...

Yeah, of course you do, since if even a fraction of people believed in reason our world would not be this ****ed up.

Can we not turn this into a flame JLee thread? Hes probably one of, if not THE nicest guy on these boards. Jesus Christ.



JLee I still like you

I know exactly what I said. You haven't quoted me correctly, either.

If I am presented with a deadly threat, I will neutralize the threat. If said threat dies, enter the bag. If said threat lives, enter the ambulance. I edited my post a while back, specifically so people like you wouldn't be able to twist it around to fit your preconceived notions and biased agendas, whatever they may be. I'm not going out of my way to "kill" anyone - I have a variety of options available, and in the vast majority of cases, mere officer presence is sufficient to control a situation. However, if someone forces my hand and turns our encounter violent, I will respond at the appropriate level. You seem to think I'm on a head-hunting mission to kill bad guys -- I'm not. Not in the least.

Read this.

Lemme know when you start believing in reason

It wasn't that twisted as that general gist came to me from something that was written down at one point or the other.

I will pick up a gun if I have to, people can respect me for defending myself and others, but I will never demand them to respect me for saying what I did was right. Ending the situation may bring good, but the act, killing, never is right.

You seem to be living in a perfect world where eventually the suspect will always give up and submit, rather than harm other people to get away.

We live in an imperfect world. An expectation of perfection is unrealistic. Read the link I posted above - it may be a new perspective for you.

Killing IS not just an action by itself. Its like saying killing to eat is wrong. Or cutting a tree down to build a house to survive is wrong.

The motives can justify and action.

JLee seems like a pretty cool guy, even though he works for the corporations that are run by the man.

Seriously, JLee is not batman. I support people who end up killing violent criminals while attempting to stop felonies, and I realize JLee is not walking around hoping that someone is rowdy so he can shoot them to death.

When did I say anything about perfection? Oh never mind, somewhere at the top of this page I said, "I know the world isn't perfect." I stand by my belief that killing isn't ever right, despite if it's necessary for good/survival or not. Ending the situation is the right thing to do, talking about all the killing involved isn't. I know this must be some new philosophy, but don't talk about how potential killing is right and these so-called wolves might not get the idea that their need to kill ever leads to anything good either.

mscbuck:
When did I say I expected suspects to just give up?

Because you seem to believe that killing should never be an option, or that it's never right. We would all LOVE a world where you don't have to kill anybody, but it HAPPENS, and whether you like it or not, it can prevent innocent civilians from losing their lives.

There are certain situations where one man must be taken down who is not cooperating and intends to harm the lives of innocent others. That suspect in question is infringing on the other people's rights, and I believe it is perfectly justifiable to kill someone if he is not backing down or cooperating with authorities. Despite what you seem to believe, there are people who won't cooperate with authorities, and instead to try to harm others. Sometimes, you can't just "end" a situation without using force.

You seem to be generalizing cops as just murderous people because they sometimes use force to handle a situation that yes, you can't just snap your finger and end.

Talking about something doesn't make it any different from what it is. Again, I'm not "talking about all the killing", though I think I understand how you could see it that way. I am saying that, in some cases, deadly force is necessary. Sometimes the use of deadly force results in a fatal injury. Is it the greatest thing ever? Not at all - but it happens. Avoiding the topic won't change this - and for those of us who face that possibility every time we go to work, it's not something you can expect us to never talk or think about. You are welcome to ignore my posts, if you don't want to hear my perspective on things.

Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman is a retired US Army Ranger and a professor of psychology at West Point. His book "On Combat" is an excellent read for military/police, and may be interesting for you to check out as well. He goes over the psychological and physiological responses to high-stress situations, etc...very interesting.

I don't disagree with you here, but I am refering to people. I think animals and trees are a different topic.



Bad people getting stopped is fine by me. People talking about killing like everyone else should do it and/or worshipping it because obviously they are so awesome for doing it themselves, isn't.

JLee: at least with me, I'm going to hold you up to unrealistic expectations. I don't think I'm the only one. Sorry.

Ace: I'm on your side. I talked with JLee, and I hope you'll rust me when I say he's on the same page as you and I.

As for the original purpose of the thread: the guy pulling the stuff on the cop is wrong.

Bah, they're both wrong.

I never really felt my arguement was even supposed to be directed at you, but other civillians that think "he had to kill someone? awesome :awesome:" who tend to say these things whenever violence and policework is mentioned. Lots of people seem to look at life and death as something less than highly morally-charged. Despite that high-stress can make one act otherwise, I can't believe it's anything anyone should be proud of, while the goals accomplished and the people they helped ARE. Yet people always overlook that bring up how similar our guardians are to the evil-doers in the levels of force and actions they have to use and how that similarity is apparently badass. I'll look into the book, but I never really doubted physiological reasons to engage in life/death combat, just the place killing has in our society.

To clarify - he goes over the physiological responses of extreme stress - the affect on the body, such as slow motion time, auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, etc. It's neat stuff.

The ghost of JLee poses no threat of physical harm to anyone here, so why get up in arms. JM bears some watching, however.

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0509/626636.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu8kYPcab_k

COPS ARE BAD MANS

Why are people attacking JLee? I don't understand what exactly he's said to give off any of this murderous intent bs or anything...



This is one thing I might disagree on somewhat. Who exactly do you report a police officer breaking the law to? IMO, wouldn't the police be more likely to ignore a call about..the police? I mean I'm not saying that it would be 100% the truth in all cases, but come on... If you called in a report against a cop to another cop they most likely ignore it, because he's "one of their own", wouldn't they?

I called the cops a few months ago on some neighbors that were having a huge party at like 5 am (I live in an apartment building too). It got so loud people actually (for some unknown reason) started coming up to MY door and knocking on it (they were in the apt next to me and not answering their door) asking me to do something or if I was part of it, etc. The music was so loud, that my CONCRETE walls were all vibrating like crazy, at 4-5 AM in the middle of the week or something like that (was a work day I know for sure). So, I called the police non-emergency number, and they finally showed up at like 8am or something crazy like that. The people that were partying had by this time turned off the music, however they were still on their balcony shouting at the streets, being noisy, hitting walls, dropping stuff, etc. As soon as I opened my door to the hallway to greet the police officers, the first thing the cop said was "You know you could have called this in and cancelled it, right?", totally in an arrogant power-trippy voice, trying to intimidate me right off the spot. And I wasn't even the one being noisy. I was the one that made the call in the first place. Anyways this of course immediately pissed me off, to which I replied "Yeah you could have also taken a little less time than 3 hours right?" to which the cop said nothing. Before anything else could be said, one of the people from the apartment made an absolutely loud as hell scream and the cop immediately told me to go back into my apartment and went and took care of the noise. I guess the main point of that story is to relate to what mscbuck said earlier, that the vast majority of cops seem to be ego-centric and power-tripping people. The guy tried to be a dick to be right off the bat for no reason and all I had done was opened my door to greet him.

I've spoken to quite a lot of police officers in my life, including close family friends, family members, the usual manners you'd encounter them, and out of every single cop I've ever spoken to I can honestly say I've spoken to two that weren't complete *******s on a power trip. JLee, and one more female officer that happens to be a family friend. That's really not an exaggeration, and I have never been in trouble with the law. I think that's what a lot of people are driving at. Cops inherently seem to be huge dicks.

I think the main issue for me is, yes, police officers are human beings. Yes, they make mistakes. However, your job is to uphold the law 100% of the time to the best of your abilities, not when it's convenient to do so. Even little things like speeding 10mph over the limit, hell even 2 mph, they are against the law. Tiny itty bitty laws, little laws or big ones, breaking them a bit or breaking them a lot, if you can't uphold the laws 100%, which is YOUR JOB, then you shouldn't do that particular job at all. Period.