Well, the 2nd Amendment by its original terms only prohibits the federal government from infringing the right to bear arms. Before the passage of the 14th Amendment (and for a few decades afterward) no one ever thought that the Bill of Rights was meant to apply to the states. Even today there are parts of the Bill of Rights that haven't been held to apply to the states, and the 2nd Amendment is one of them. There's a case before the Supreme Court right now that will probably decide that issue.

Yeah, this. I just can't comprehend the idea of people carrying around guns in public. It's bizarre.

I live in a country where no one has guns. And it's not like women aren't safe in the streets or crime rates are sky high. Rather the reverse.

I'm not afraid of being mugged. Most of the time I only carry small amounts of cash, and I only have a bankcard on me when I know I'm going to use it, and on these occasions I'll just avoid dodgy places.

Lawyered.

I can understand that. But it's only bizarre because it's different from what you're used to. I mean, tell me why exactly you WOULDN'T want to carry a gun? I mean, why not? It's not going to jump up and bite you. People carry knives around all the time and no one thinks twice about it. This really isn't that different in concept. Discounting the "i'll probably never use it" argument (I'll probably never use the airbags or seatbelts in my car, either, but I sure as hell want them there if I DO need them) then really the only reason not to is if you don't trust YOURSELF.

To me it feels weird to go out without my gun on...not because I feel unsafe or wrong, but just because it feels different from what I'm used to.

Edit: What Michael Mac Farlane says is correct (well, as far as I understand as a layperson, anyway). If California wants to outlaw guns, then I disagree but go ahead. I just won't live in or go to California if I can help it. But I fully support the idea that the Bill of Rights should apply to states, as well. Really, NO government should be allowed to infringe our rights. But that's just my opinion.

It's probably the whole "I'm carrying around a deadly weapon thats sole purpose is to kill things" thing.


Bollocks. If someone is carrying around a knife in plain sight it's going to make me just about as uncomfortable as someone carrying a gun in plain sight.

Really? That surprises me. I and pretty much everyone I know have carried knives with us every day since before high school. Obviously not really for self defense or anything, mostly for utility. I pretty much assume that anyone I talk to has a knife, and often I don't have to assume because it's sitting right there on their belt. As a side note, I have never been stabbed or attacked with a knife.

I understand that you would be uncomfortable with carrying around a deadly weapon intended to kill, but what I meant was aside from being uncomfortable with it, is there any solid reason NOT to?
(Note that I would NEVER advocate doing something, especially something as serious as carrying a gun, on the grounds of "why not? :downswords:"; I'm just discussing the idea.)

Well honestly I can't see any time a gun would ever be useful for. I understand your seatbelts and airbags argument seeing as they're obviously useful if you get into a accident but I can't think of a single time where I'd actually need a gun. I'm sure that someone is going to bring up the "BUT WHAT IF YOU GET MUGGED" argument, but assuming this hypothetical mugger has a gun I'd honestly rather let him take my stuff than get into a firefight.

I'm not uncomfortable carrying around a deadly weapon that's intended to kill someone because I know that I will not kill anyone unless it is necessary. I'm sure I probably never will, either. But I'm a strong believer in having the right tool for the job. When the job is protecting your life from deadly force, the right tool isn't "whatever is at hand" or "call for help!", the right tool is a gun. I've never had to pull my gun, and hopefully I'll never even get that far, but I've come close enough once or twice to make me think I'm glad I had the option.

For example: My friends and I were standing out in front of a gas station convenience store one night talking to this old guy who we thought was just kind of weird but slowly began to reveal himself as VERY weird and apparently drunk. About the time he grabbed my friend's sandwich out of his hands and took a bite, we all shifted our positions to his front and one side. He continued talking and suddenly pulled out a knife and started stabbing...the stacked displays of washer fluid next to us. Just a crazy old guy, right? Well, how do you know the difference between harmless old character, crazy old guy, and crazy old guy who stabs your friend until he does it?

Another example: Me and my friend are sitting in our car at the drive through for a fast food restaurant, again at night. We hear yelling from around the corner of the restaurant, and a guy backs around the corner yelling at someone. He keeps walking until he's in front of our car and then another guy comes around the corner and it becomes clear that they are having an argument...about a sandwich (we call the cops at this point). About 7 feet in front of the car, they get into a pushing match and it starts to get really heated. One of them breaks away and walks between our car and the building, but he's still yelling like he's not done fighting. About that time the other guy walks back...to the OTHER side of our car, away from the building. They stop and the yelling continues, shouting through our car (this was my friend's tall SUV), both are threatening each other, one of them says he's going to kill the other. The other one reaches into his pants for a second. Right here is about where I was thinking "I'm glad I have my hand on my gun right now, because if he pulls out a gun, I'm not getting caught in the crossfire." He didn't...he was just adjusting himself or posturing or something. They keep arguing and move back behind our car, and about that time the police show up. You never know what some stupid thugs are going to get into a fight over, and what they'll kill over.

This is why I tend not to talk to weird people.

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/

I'm sure glad I carry a gun.

Just in case someone else carries one too.

Jon, you of all people should realize that's a silly argument. There's nothing I can do about what other people do. All I can control is what I do. Not only that, but until you outlaw everything sharp or heavy and tie everyone's hands behind their backs, people are still going to try to kill people. I'd rather not be facing down a huge ex-con high on pcp with a baseball bat without nothing to defend myself with but a phone and a prayer. Again, extreme case, but it happens. Anyway, good luck un-inventing guns.

Edit: and this all is not to mention the principle of the thing, which is that a lot of criminals think they can do whatever they want and threaten whoever they want and they will GET whatever they want. Personally, I disagree. I do think that there is somewhat of a moral calling to resist, and that doesn't have to mean having a gun or getting into a fight, but it can if you are willing and able.

Further edit: Fun fact, guns aren't just for shooting humans. They can also shoot animals! My blind roommate has a $40,000 dog guide, a german shepherd. Over the winter break, he got attacked by a bulldog, who latched onto his throat and would not let go. This was not one of those barking and posturing fights, this was silent and vicious. My friends tried to pull them apart, but he just bit harder...they beat the hell out of him, one of them going as far as to be stomping (with all of his 330 lbs of weight) on the dog's neck. None of it worked, he was still actively KILLING the dog guide. My friend grabbed his pistol and began counting down from 5. He got to 2 when the dog finally let go for a split second and gave them an opportunity to fend him off with a chair. The german shepherd had to be rushed to the vet for stitches and antibiotics, because he was bleeding all over the place. I wasn't there at the time, but I know that shooting that dog was the right answer. To be honest, he should have been shot before it got as far as it did. If it hadn't been our other friend's wife's dog, he'd probably be dead now.

BobTheMasher: Both of your examples sound like they were avoidable. It's common knowledge that shady characters hang out in from of convenient stores (even Hollywood knows this) & you could've simply sped off in your vehicle, away from the drive-thru scene (possibly losing just a few bucks or you could've simply went around to the other side & went in instead, assuming they were open). I recognize that these were both just examples & that there are some situations that one simply can't run away from, but you can greatly decrease the amount of danger that you put yourself & your loved ones in to simply by learning which types of environments & situations to avoid. I agree with your issue of preparedness. I'm an outdoorsman myself & love to go camping, canoeing & hiking. I wouldn't be caught dead without certain items. However, I honestly believe that keeping a gun in your home &/or in your vehicle should be enough. There's also a big difference between firearms & melee weapons (outside of the video game world). Just ask Charlie Whitman or Japan.

Who said that carrying a firearm is a replacement for avoiding bad situations..?

Within about 21 feet there isn't much difference between a gun and a knife. He'll get to you and stab you before you have a chance to do much of anything.

Also saying that situations were "avoidable" is a bit like saying "oh, she was asking to get raped, she shouldn't have worn that dress, or gone out with that guy!". Sure, it MIGHT be true, but it's irrelevant. I am very careful about situations I put myself in. I am constantly aware of my surroundings to the best of my ability. I don't start fights, I don't go where I don't belong, etc.

I was at a gas station with some friends getting a soda, and we stopped outside the store to drink our sodas and talk about what we should go do. An old guy approached. The situation unfolded. Should I just run away from every old guy who talks to me?

As for the second situation, first of all, I was the passenger, so I had no control over what the car did. Secondly, even if I was the driver, there was a car in front of us, a car behind us, the building to the left, and a median planted with trees to the right. These two men were on either side of our car, within one foot of the door. The MOST dangerous thing we could have done is try to drive away or get out and run. And unless you think it's reasonable to no longer go out to eat food, the situation was pretty tough to avoid at that point.

If not for self-defense, what exactly is the purpose? Are we expecting a revolution to occur while we're walking from our job to our car or maybe we'll spot a dear that we can kill in the Wal-Mart parking lot?

What he means is, just because you have a gun doesn't mean you stop avoiding bad situations. It just means that when you find one that you can't avoid, you still have an option.

Agreed. I suppose that I can see where you guys are coming from on the preparedness front. I still think that the chances of needing a gun while you're not in your home or in your car would be about as rare as winning a multi-state lottery but then again, there are some people that actually do win the lottery & for those people, it must be great, as long as they're not dumb enough to blow it.

The reason these gun lobbies and their arguments are gaining support is because people are buying into fear. It is easy to blame to the media, but they only provide what you are ready to consume. The problem is you (collectively).

There is an astronomically high likelihood that nothing interesting will ever happen to you. For the vast majority of humans that have ever existed, nothing interesting ever happened in their lives. You are no different. You will never be involved in a terrorist attack, you will never be caught up in a bank robbery, you will never be mugged by drug barons, you will never be date-raped, your children will never be molested by paedophiles, your family will never be kidnapped by rapists. For the overwhelming majority of individuals, the overwhelming odds are that none of that will ever happen to you. That isn't a very pleasing thought, you want to believe that you are unique, you are special, you are different, and you buy into this fear to convince you that you are unique, special and different. This stuff won't happen to other people, but it will happen to you! It will be up to you and you alone to protect against terrorists, paedophiles and criminals!

Except it won't. You, along with most every human that has ever existed, will live an entirely uneventful life. You will go to school, get a job, get married, have children, have grandchildren, and eventually die of some disease you could probably have prevented if you weren't so afraid of all this other stuff that was never going to happen to you anyway.

Trust me, I don't buy into the fear mongering that I am likely to be involved in something interesting. But I think you're vastly under-estimating the likelihood that something will happen in your lifetime. Your argument is essentially the same as everyone who has ever been robbed, attacked, raped, whatever, namely: "That's something that happens to other people, it'll never happen to me!" Well, it does happen, and there is no reason to think that it couldn't be you except pure denial. It's very very unlikely. That doesn't mean it's impossible and that I am invulnerable.

Here's an example. I live in Oklahoma. The violent crime rate here is 500.5 per 100,000. That's (simplistically speaking, there are a lot of factors here) a .5% chance that I am a victim of a violent crime this year. Over a lifetime, that's pushing the odds. Let's say that I lived in a bigger city, for example Washington, D.C. (easy to find stats on just the city). The violent crime rate there is 1371.2 per 100,000. That's more than 1 in 100 chance. If I spent the rest of my life there, the chances are pretty good that I would be involved in something at some point.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think it's important to point out that "violent crimes" don't usually result in homicide or rape. The vast majority of violent crimes in D.C. appear to result in "aggravated assault" or "robbery". You could probably shoot someone that's assaulting or robbing you & you may even get away with it, claiming self-defense, but it's far less likely that you'd be seriously injured or murdered than it is of you being assaulted or robbed in the first place. However, I can understand the feeling of wanting to avoid any type of violent crime if possible & I think that preparedness is a respectable position as long as it's not unreasonable, especially if you have loved ones that you'd want to protect.

I must admit that I find it humorous that we're one of the few modern countries that allows their citizens to bare arms yet we're all still so fearful of our government. I was in France during the France versus Ireland game where the French player obviously touched the ****ing ball with his hand & an Algerian game. These Algerians surrounded the Arc de Triomphe, which was surrounded by police in riot gear & starting burning scooters, throwing stones & bottles & disrupting traffic. All of this over a soccer (football) game...that they won! Imagine what would happen if you tried to take away their healthcare. Over here we just get a bunch of hippies with signs & no one really listens to them. I think we've become a bunch of stagnant pussies & that's right where they want us.

Trust me, I don't buy into the fear mongering that I am likely to be involved in something interesting. But I think you're vastly under-estimating the likelihood that something will happen in your lifetime. Your argument is essentially the same as everyone who has ever been robbed, attacked, raped, whatever, namely: "That's something that happens to other people, it'll never happen to me!" Well, it does happen, and there is no reason to think that it couldn't be you except pure denial. It's very very unlikely. That doesn't mean it's impossible and that I am invulnerable.

Here's an example. I live in Oklahoma. The violent crime rate here is 500.5 per 100,000. That's (simplistically speaking, there are a lot of factors here) a .5% chance that I am a victim of a violent crime this year. Over a lifetime, that's pushing the odds. Let's say that I lived in a bigger city, for example Washington, D.C. (easy to find stats on just the city). The violent crime rate there is 1371.2 per 100,000. That's more than 1 in 100 chance. If I spent the rest of my life there, the chances are pretty good that I would be involved in something at some point.

The fact you seem to be missing is that I don't trust you. Why should I? I'm way less afraid of the guy robbing a convenience store: he'll probably only open fire if someone does something stupid. You, on the other hand, are in an excellent position to do stupid things. I'm safer without you around.

No, it's not a silly argument. Not at all.

I have a California CCW - I am legally allowed to carry a loaded firearm hidden on my person.

I keep a loaded gun locked in my house, a loaded gun locked in my car. I only carry it on my person when I ride my motorcycle long distances (3-4 hour rides in unfamiliar territory). I rarely carry it on my person whilst performing day-today activities (I only do when I get a new pair of pants or holster or something physical changes). I've only had to pull it once, but never fired.

People do it for the attention. Note that even though it may be legal to carry a gun in public areas, any private business can ask you to leave and probably will. I've had to escort some of these people out of a store I worked at.

Sure, that's a valid concern. We're standing next to each other at the counter and a third guy walks in and points a gun at the cashier, demanding money. You think the likelihood of him shooting the cashier is far less than the likelihood of me shooting him if he does this (and therefore endangering everyone). That may be correct, depending on the situation. So essentially, your stance on crime is "just let them do it, I trust criminals not to hurt anyone too bad most of the time". What if a police officer showed up and pointed a gun at the guy? Is that acceptable to you, or do you think they, too, should stay out of it, let him do what he wants, and hope he doesn't hurt anyone?

What if the gun was pointed at you? What if it wasn't a robbery, what if it was some guy who thinks you cut him off on the freeway a minute ago? What if it's your girlfriend's ex-boyfriend and he's in a jealous rage? He's got a knife, not a gun. What if it's a stray pit bull attacking you, or your kid? What if it's a disturbed ex-employee shooting up your office? In what situation do you finally say "whoa, hey, maybe I shouldn't just hope and pray no one gets hurt!" You have chosen one very specific circumstance in which it is POSSIBLE that more danger is caused by the presence of another gun, and not only that, but you've trusted the judgement of a criminal in the act of committing a violent crime over the judgement of a law abiding citizen who ALSO has concern for his own and others' lives, just like you.

The difference between a police officer pointing a gun at the dude and you pointing a gun at the dude is that I can be confident that the police officer knows what the **** he is doing. And if he doesn't, he can be held accountable. I have no idea whether you know what you're doing or not.

What is much more likely is that you will fumble for some loose change in your pocket and accidentally shoot me in the penis. I don't trust you to not shoot my penis.

No, my stance on crime is "It's going to happen." My stance on you brandishing a gun is "I'd rather have the crime happen."

It takes more skill and more training to become a police officer than it does to carry a gun.

Then I would still have some control over the situation.

When amateur vigilante BobTheMasher comes to the rescue, I no longer have control. Now I'm a hostage and there are two people pointing guns at me. That's sure an improvement!

Your fantastic scenarios for why concealed carry is good only work if everybody carries a gun. That's never going to happen, for a lot of reasons. In reality, the owner of a rabid dog is carrying a gun so he can shoot anybody who hurts his little precious (something like this actually happened in my town.) In reality, the police will be powerless to stop my girlfriend's jilted ex-boyfriend before he shoots me because he's legally allowed to carry a gun.

You have alot more trust for Law Enforcement than I do, and I'm not trying to disrespect any police officers or anything; just from what I've learned from my college experiences (I'm a Criminal Justice major), I've learned that even though they are trained to handle certain situations, L.E. officers aren't the end-all-be-all experts in critical thinking. They aren't super human.

I'm not expecting them to be. But I'm also not expecting Joe the Plumber to be a fearless protector of good and to effectively wield his spanner against all that is evil. I expect Joe the Plumber to be a ****ing plumber, nothing more.

But why should Joe the plumber be willing to give the hard earned money he earned by plumbing to some piece of scum on the corner who believes he's entitled to more than his non existent work ethic brings him, without a decent fight?

There's a matter of degree there. When I think of "everybody has a knife," I think of the Swiss Army variety. Certainly if someone's wearing a Bowie knife, it's going to make many uneasy. In fact, knives with blades that are too long are illegal to carry in many places. I know you could kill someone with even some of the smaller blades if you knew what you were doing or were lucky, but it isn't the kind of instadeath that guns can provide.

I do hope you all realize that to get a permit, you don't just have to be able to breathe and buy a gun. There are pretty stiff requirements, including a fairly tough firearms proficiency test that covers legality of usage, handling, holstering/un and shooting).

(of course, this only applies to California, I have no idea what it's like in other states)

He shouldn't. Bad things happen to good people all the time, and if Joe can get out of a bad situation safely to plumb another day then good on him. However, I don't expect him to. Concealed carry implicitly expects Joe the Plumber to be an effective vigilante, and I don't trust him to be that. I trust he's an effective plumber, I don't trust he's an effective policeman.

Mort, you're missing the point. You're right when you say he's not a vigilante, he's a plumber. What you're not understanding is that he doesn't go around looking for bad guys. He doesn't go shooting willy nilly. Given the option, he turns over the $35 in his wallet and leaves. Firearms are an absolute last resort, not an exciting opportunity. ELITE WARRIOR and others are painting those who carry and use weapons as night time superheros, while you and others paint them as reckless and vigilantes. While there are probably instances of both, the reality is far from either of those two poles.

Beside, there are literally millions of permit holders (and that's just Florida). You don't hear about millions of people being accidentally killed by a permit holder trying to save a Kwik-E-Mart from being robbed.

The point of this thread is Open Carry in Metropolitan areas, which I think is a bad idea. It tends to frighten people. Apply for a Concealed Carry Permit and carry concealed, or don't carry. Out in the sticks or less populated areas are a different story, and depend on a variety of factors. In large urban areas, though, I think it's unwise. It attracts too much attention, and the wrong kind of attention. It makes people uneasy, even though if it may be perfectly safe and legal.

I open carry my .45 while I am backpacking in the woods. I get strange looks from passersby, though I only encounter 2-3 people a day. One guy asked of my holstered weapon,
"What's with the hand cannon?"
"Have you ever seen Deliverance?"
"Haha, fair enough. Have a good one."

Exactly. It seems like a lot of you think that as soon as I put a gun on my belt, I turn into some vigilante justice obsessed superhero wannabe just waiting for any legal opportunity to blow away anyone or anything I can. Like I'm standing in line at this convenience store giggling at the prospect of getting to shoot someone. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The fact is, police aren't really there to protect you. Of course, they will at any opportunity, but really they're there to catch criminals. Usually the situation is over before they ever get there...often before they even know it is happening. If they were there to protect me, personally, then I'd have one following me around all day...but I can't and I don't. That just leaves me. It's MY responsibility to protect myself. I just choose to have the proper tool to do so.

You say you don't trust anyone else (although you all seem pretty trusting of these people pointing guns to not shoot someone). Well then who is to say that "crazy vigilante superman" BobTheMasher isn't going to try something stupid no matter WHAT he has? He could be totally unarmed next to the guy and try to fight him. That happens quite often, as well...wouldn't you rather in that case that he at least have a chance of winning the fight?

Jon, you seem to think you have some sort of control over the situation before crazy vigilante arrives. It's an illusion. You THINK you control how the robber is going to act, but you don't. It's entirely up to him what he is going to do. My "fantastic scenarios" pale in comparison to your fantasy mind control over this violent criminal.

Oh, the owner of the vicious dog THAT IS ATTACKING YOUR CHILD is mad that you shot his dog. He has a gun. But, you'd rather let the crime happen. So...your suggestion is "oh, let the kid get mauled to death, after all, you don't want to get YOURSELF harmed!"

And in reality, the police will be powerless to stop your girlfriend's ex-boyfriend whether his gun is legal or not, unless you can see the future and know he's about to attack you 15 minutes in advance. Can you see the future? Do you have mind control? Maybe YOU should be the vigilante superman with powers like that.


Oh, and on a personal note, yes, even in Oklahoma (the most gun-lenient state in the Union) you must pass a significant background check, learn ALL of the laws relating to the use of force, and show that you know how to use your weapon properly. I spend a lot of money making sure that I have a good weapon and that I am proficient with it, and that I know my limitations. I have imagined, discussed, and practiced numerous scenarios and determined how best to act in them beforehand. I do this because I don't take the use of deadly force lightly. Shooting is a fun hobby, carrying a concealed weapon is NOT. This of course says nothing about the disposition of others, but there it is.

Ok so, if one of my friends said this too me out loud I would call them a pussy.

Yeah, this time try reading my post.

Someone who just likes to walk around? Probably doesn't have a gun.
Some guy who has a rabid dog and IS GOING TO ****ING KILL ANYBODY WHO HURTS HIS CUTE LITTLE PUGGY? Dude's packing.

Who is concealed carry helping in this situation? The guy who doesn't have a gun because he doesn't need one, or the guy who takes his dog for a walk with a loaded pistol? Hint: It's the guy with the loaded pistol. If it were illegal to carry a gun around, maybe there's a chance the police will notice this guy before it's too late.

This isn't a fantasy situation. This is a real situation. Like I said: In my town this happened.

And you know what? If I'm being held at gunpoint, having a gun is going to do **** all because I'm not going to be able to get it out. If someone else has a gun, I'm a hostage. If, by some miracle, I manage to draw before the guy shoots me in the face, it's a mexican standoff. It's a concealed wepaon in a public place, not an IPSC competition. If you think your gun would help you in that sort of situation you're delusional.