Truedat.

Jon, I don't think you're looking at this very logically. You seem to be ignoring the child being mauled to death and be very overly concerned about your own wellbeing.

Okay, so you shoot the dog and the guy comes out pissed off and pointing his gun. Shoot him, too, if you feel it's necessary to survive the situation. You can keep tacking on what-ifs and stacking the bodycount higher all day long, it's irrelevant.

You've created a losing situation and you're arguing that it's a bad. Of course it is. You're right, if you make a guy mad enough to kill and he is armed and you aren't, you will likely lose that fight. Duh.

If you're armed and he isn't, then good! You have saved a child's life at the cost of a vicious dog's.
Score: The dog is dead. The child, you, and the man are alive.

If you're both armed, there might be a gunfight if the guy is that crazy. At least you've got a shot.
Score: The dog is dead. The child is alive. You and the man may be any combination of the two.

If neither of you are armed, the child is dead, guaranteed.
Score: The dog is alive (for the moment). The child is dead. You and the man are alive.

You're also using some pretty flawed language here.

It sounds like the guy who is confronting a crazy, pissed off armed man with a vicious dog MIGHT need a gun. He'd probably still need the gun even if he was confronting a crazy, pissed off UNARMED man with a vicious dog.

If it were illegal to carry a gun around, how exactly do you think the police would stop this guy? "Hey, excuse me, sir, walking your dog there! We need to search you for no reason!" Does it even matter if it was a gun? Again, what if he walked his dog with a knife? Would you be any less dead if he stabbed you to death vs. shooting you to death? What if he was just really strong and BEAT you to death?

That is a ridiculous statement.

You're one of those people who thinks that, just because someone is carrying, they have to use it, aren't you..

What if police are allowed to carry firearms and normal citizens aren't

(Unrelated thought):
I wonder what would happen if guns were replaced w/ swords in every respect -- that is, guns are outlawed and the 2nd amendment is intended and interpreted from the beginning to refer to swords, and now all controversy, debate, laws etc. currently pertaining to guns were to apply to swords instead

No, I'm looking at it much more logically than you are.

I can construct a million fantasy scenarios where it'd be a great thing for everybody on earth to have an atomic bomb. Maybe some of them have actually happened, once or twice. Does that mean it's actually a good thing?

You said a gun would help you if someone holds you at gunpoint. It won't.

This is your hobby. You want to support it, fine. But I absolutely hate the idea that someone like you, someone who wants to carry a gun around and fantasizes about winning in a firefight, is allowed to.

I don't have any faith or trust in you at all. Suck it up.

I don't trust you with a gun, either.

This.

Why do people keep going to Gunpoint anyway, its like you hear about another mugging there every day.

...yeah, still not answering me.

I know you trust yourselves. Big ****ing deal; your mom probably thinks you're a cool dude, too. If you can trust yourself to wipe your own ***, I hope you can trust yourself not to accidentally commit murder.

The real question is: Why should I trust you with a gun? Would you trust me with one? WHY?

Because I'm the one who, when shots go off, go running towards them to save your sorry ***.

Yes, there is a compelling reason for you to have one. You're trained, qualified and - more importantly - it's your job. I don't trust you as an individual but if I had to choose between you and our two Bobs I'm gonna choose you.

That said, why should I trust some guy named Bob who wants to be a big man? Seriously. None of you have even tried to answer this. All you've said is that I'm better off if I had a gun. How am I better off as it is, where the only people who carry guns are people who either 1.) enjoy shooting as a hobby, or 2.) have psychological issues.

Ideally, you wouldn't have to trust me with a gun because the situation in which I would be required to draw will never happen, nor should you even know I have one thanks to a CCW permit.

[nevermind, not getting into this]

There's no point in arguing with you because you refuse to even consider the opposing viewpoint. Ken Hammond was off duty. In your world, he wouldn't be carrying. In your world, more people would've died.

Have you never encountered Jonk before?

I'm not big into debate threads..

First of all, where I live, knives are just as illegal. So much for that argument, I guess. I think it's the same thing anyway, it's a weapon. Yes, knives can also be tools, but here you can't carry anything bigger than a pocket knife, and even that is illegal in certain urban areas with special restrictions.

If I could carry a gun, it would mean everyone could be carrying a gun. And I can't say I like that idea. I know several people who are so mentally unstable that they would definitely use a gun in certain situations, if they had one. No matter how 'tight' restrictions for permits are, if guns are 'legal', it is easier for people to borrow/steal one because generally, there are more weapons around. Especially if lots of people have them in their cars, homes and on themselves all the time.

So, when some homicidal teen takes his daddy's gun to high school, you could blame the parents for not locking the weapon away properly, or you could say that it couldn't have happened at all if the parents had no guns. Because no matter how tight restrictions for permits are, people are going to be at fault. It's a simple statistic.

Also, I probably couldn't bring myself to shoot anyone, not even if I were robbed. And you know what they say, if you pull a gun, you'd better be prepared to use it. Besides, if you're being robbed, you're probably too late to draw anyway. So what are you going to do?

I'm pretty sure I feel safer without a gun.

You are the person on this forum who I would trust the least with a firearm, and I wouldn't be surprised if many other people agreed with me.

...still not answering my question. Are we keeping track?

People are not trustworthy. At best they're liars, and at worst they're unconsciously incompetent. You're a damn cop, are you trying to tell me that you'd trust any of the people you meet on a daily basis with your life?

Answer my goddamn question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologist%27s_fallacy

Your personal biases fail to support any of your arguments.

I could just as easily say "I don't give a **** what Joncy thinks", but it doesn't help my arument at all, so I refrain. Until now.

Considering that you can't even keep your temper in check on the internet, I can understand why you wouldn't want people carrying guns. However, not everyone is like you.

Yes, I would trust plenty of the people I meet on a daily basis with my life. You think I never stop hunters or people with carry permits? I work in New Hampshire! I have yet to disarm a hunter or CCW holder on a traffic stop. It's not the legally owned and carried guns that concern me.

Sure they do. This argument is entirely normative, after all.

I don't like you. I don't trust you. I think you're useless, dishonest, unreliable, irresponsible and I think you're one missed opportunity for attention away from a psychotic episode. I have no reason to believe you will act competently in any sort of emergency situation and I strongly believe you will only ever act in your own self-interest.

Why? Because I don't know you.

Golly gee mister police officer sir, I'm so very sorry for using those bad words.

Okay.

Now tell me why.

There are a lot of good people in this world.

And a shedload of them are clumsy.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Well, if a CCW holder shoots me, I guess I'll have to eat my words.

'till then, I'm going to say that my experience > yours.

To be fair, there are a lot of ****heads in this world, too. But typically they're not licensed carriers and like you I'm not really concerned about those people.

There's one person I know that carries that absolutely I would trust with my life. I've known him for years, he knows damn well what the consequences are of ever having to use his gun, he his proficient with his firearm, and he's not a nut job and likely to shoot first and ask questions later.

The point is: guns kick *** and you should be able to carry one on the street if you want. If you disagree, you are a panty wearing, tea sipping, sissy boy vegetarian who obviously doesn't understand that being American means eating raw steak, drinking crappy beer, driving around in 1970's ford bronco's with no muffler, and shooting guns.

lol tell me about it, I deal with them too.

You misunderstand. What I'm saying was, if I could carry a gun, it would be legal, so that means more people would be able to have one. Because where I live it isn't legal. Just making that clear. He was asking me why I wouldn't want a gun.



I'm not saying if it can happen it will happen, I'm saying there would be more guns available if they were legal. Simple as that.



If you would read what's on that page you're linking to, you'd see that's not what I'm doing.



You're thinking I'm making an argument, but he was asking me my personal reasons why I wouldn't want to be carrying a gun. Reading comprehension.

Anyone else find it slightly ironic that optimism is used as a defense for legal open-carry when the act of open-carry is inherently pessimistic?

appeal to authority.

(that means you never actually answered my question)

(although it explains why you trust them (experience => trust) it doesn't explain why I should (because I do not have the experience you claim I do not have))

I like legal open-carry a lot, because it actually has a deterrent aspect while concealed carry is rolling dice to see if you're in a crossfire.

argument for ccw in this thread: x^2 + y^2 = 1

all i want is for someone to answer my question

I agree with this notion entirely.

I am not defending open carry, and I don't open carry unless I am at work (which I do then for obvious reasons).

Yeah, cause you need to be able to fly your gat at some banger at any time!

Sorry. I've been playing a lot of GTA: San Andreas lately.

I have a question for you jonc, but I think I have an idea what your remark would be to this. I served in the US Army for Four Years. I was highly trained to know about what to do in a threatening situation, I was probably trained of what we called the rules of engagement and the use of deadly force and especially how to prevent any civilian casualties. This was training that I proudly received to protect our country. Now would you distrust me with a firearm?

No.

Well then thats your problem!

I like reading these, I've learned a lot about the art of arguing over the years.
Says a lot about this site and the people on it that in an argument no bans are given out, and all goes back to normal afterwards.

Unlike a lot of message boards arguments on this board don't degrade into homosexual epithets and racial slurs.