Wait! Jon c, My bad I guess you mean no as you dont distrust me, you mean you do trust me with a firearm?

Yes, I don't distrust you.

Thank you.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst is ironic?

How long did that take for you? just out of curiosity

That's because around here, arguments ARE normal.

Never said that. Please don't make things up. Also, you're completely and utterly wrong. Completely. Thus, proving that you have no knowledge or experience in this area. Did you see the link JLee posted a few pages back? It contains a list of incidents found in the news where someone defended himself or herself with a firearm. They're not all good stories. Most of them are home invasions. Some are robberies and some are just attacks. You will find plenty of incidents where someone has a gun pointed at them, and they then fight back and win. I don't claim that this is the norm, I only claim that you are wrong in thinking that "it won't help". It could.


You're completely right, I "fantasize about" (plan on) winning in a firefight. Because losing in a firefight would mean that I am dead...I don't want to be dead. It's not like I plan on getting into one. Quite the opposite. I am very careful...but if someone forces me into a gunfight, there's not a lot I can do at that point.


I don't need you to trust me any more than you trust anyone not to kill you in your everyday life. I need you to not dictate how I live my life, and I'll return the favor. I am referring to a hypothetical "you" here, not you personally, obviously, since we're just having a discussion.

You trust people with cars not to run down pedestrians on the sidewalk, you trust people barreling within feet of your car converging at 120 mph on the highway not to plow into you. You trust someone with a kitchen knife not to cut you into ribbons while making dinner. All of these people have the ABILITY to kill you, and the OPPORTUNITY to kill you just as dead as someone carrying a gun. And yet, you have this really quite disturbing combination of mistrust and lack of respect for your peers, a high opinion of yourself, skill with words that makes many here like you, an inability to admit error, and callousness that frankly gives me the heebie jeebies, to use a technical term.

I'm not going to be able to pull a gun in the time it takes for someone to shoot me. Maybe if I were wearing a speed holster, and if the guy were really nervous or not paying attention. Maybe. I'm not fast enough for competition (don't have the money or time to get into the IPSC Black Badge stuff yet,) and I definitely can't see myself pulling out a concealed weapon in time.
Maybe you're faster than I am, in which case a concealed weapon might save you. Me, on the other hand? A concealed weapon would get me shot. Period.

You probably have some picture of me as a pot-smoking hippie, which is plainly false. Get over yourself: lots of people shoot, and not all of them are named Bob. Don't you dare tell someone they have no knowledge or experience unless you're sure that you're right.

I'm not dictating anything. I don't trust you, and I don't think you're competent. I hate what you're doing and I see no reason to be quiet about it.

If you want me to be quiet, you can always track me down, shoot me, and our debate will be settled.

Nope! Most of the people on the road shouldn't be allowed to drive, either.

I know as much about knife defense as I do about firearms.

One's peers are a group of his own choosing.

A low opinion of others does not imply a high opinion of one's self.

Thank you.

I admit error when my errors are adequately demonstrated.

Internet person from thousands of miles away who doesn't know you in real life treats you with a lack of respect and empathy! AROOGA! Sound the alarms!

What is your day to day life? Are you private security at Nakatomi Tower or something? I don't think anyone's going to force you into a gunfight, John Wayne.

You're not in a ****ing movie. The bad guys don't just come running around the corner and all the sudden a gunfight breaks out. This is real life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting

That is real life.

That is a very good testament to why civilians should not be allowed to carry concealed weapons......

"until he was shot dead by police." Notice how it didn't read "until he was shot dead by a heroic civilian who happened to have his ccw"

.... You do realize, you can carry and conceal a weapon without a permit .. right?

However, if someone chooses to commit acts of violence, (even if its illegal lolz), someone could have stopped that from going from bad to worse..because they were legally carrying a weapon.

Jon, no, I don't picture you as a pot smoking hippie. I just think that you have latched on to the worst-case scenarios and then superimposed your worst-case decision making onto me (or anyone else). If some guy has a gun pressed into my gut then yeah, he's probably going to shoot me before I can draw my gun and shoot him. But why would I draw my gun in that case? Unless I became convinced that he intended to shoot me regardless of my actions, it would be stupid to try something. Why don't you move on to the multitude of other scenarios that exist that AREN'T on the "duh" end of the spectrum which you seem to be avoiding?

In regards to you not dictating anything, I said specifically that I wasn't talking about you personally. It's right there, in plain text.

A low opinion of others is pretty much exactly the same as a high opinion of yourself unless you also have a low opinion of yourself, no matter how you try to rationalize it.

You'll note that I am not leaving massassi and shutting off my internet. I said you give me the heebie jeebies, I'm not exactly going into witness protection here.


Antony! My day-to-day life is super uneventful and mostly filled with books about sprinklers and industrial hygiene! I have indeed worked security, but nothing major! If I was in a movie, it'd be a super boring movie up to this point! But hey, you never know what will happen tomorrow.

Sometimes the "bad guys" just come running around the corner and shoot you. If you're okay with that, that's cool. I'm not...I like to have a plan, even if I never have to use it. Even if the plan doesn't work. I am going to school for fire protection, as in sprinklers and alarms and backups and pumps. Have you ever been in a building that caught on fire and had sprinklers save your life? I haven't. I probably never will. Do you know how much effort goes into making sure that if you ever need them, they're there? A lot of money, a lot of effort, and all for something you'll probably never need. But a sprinkler in the right spot at the right time CAN save hundreds of lives if prevention should fail. Do you think they're superfluous? Why bother, right?

Yeah, someone did stop it from going from bad to worse. The police.

EDIT: Equating a sprinkler system in a building to carrying your own concealed weapon is idiotic. Sprinkler systems are law mandated fire extinguishing systems built into the structure of all public buildings. Kind of the same as a police department in a metropolitan area.

Carrying a concealed weapon is like carrying a fire extinguisher around because a fire might break out at any time.

No, the fire department is like the police department. Sprinklers are something put in place to facilitate immediate action taken at the first sign of trouble to defuse the situation. If you want to be so literal with the analogy, then you can forget about it, it's not important. If you want to use the fire extinguisher analogy, then fine, if they made a pocket sized fire extinguisher that was capable of putting out a building fire, I would have one. I already have an extinguisher in my car.

You also seem to have this strange idea that the police will definitely be there to protect you and no regular citizen could ever do anything to help. It reeks of "not my problem!" and "someone should do something!" mentality. Please click the links in my post.

I get it. When some guy decides that life has given him one too many lemons and he's not in the mood for lemonade, and he decides to start shooting, we can count on someone like you to be there.

You'll be doing the shooting.

Notice how he was distracted and stopped shooting everyone?

The Police intervened... Doing their jobs. Not a whackjob civilian who thinks he's Charles Bronson.

Unless you pay me 24/7, it's not my "job" to do anything when I am off duty.

"To protect and serve... as long as I'm on the clock."

Antony, I can't bring myself to believe that you truly believe what you're saying.

Anyway, in Oklahoma in 2008 only 20 permits were revoked or suspended. I need to go to bed so I don't have time to look up or figure out a decent estimation of the total number of valid CCW permits in existence during this year, but there were 18,510 NEW permits issued that year. That's a revocation/suspension rate of .1% at the MOST. That is for any number of things, not just using the firearm incorrectly. To compare, the violent crime rate in Oklahoma for the same year was about .5%. That would seem to imply that concealed carry holders are much less likely to commit a violent crime than the average citizen is.

Also, JLee's point with that last post was that when he is off the clock, it's not his job to do anything in that situation any more than it is YOUR job to do something in that situation. So, if he DID do anything, then that would make him no different than a "whackjob civilian who thinks he's Charles Bronson" by your definition. I notice that you have not commented on any of the news articles that I posted.

Thus, you have proven that no matter how many good citizens carry concealed weapons, violent crime will still happen regardless of their wanna-be Charles Bronson antics.

Do you expect an off duty firefighter to run into a burning building without any protective equipment? Without a radio? Without backup?

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

You know, we were doing alright in this thread, considering. Were.

Violent crime drops in states that implement CCW. Look up Gary Kleck's study 'more guns less crime'.

Yeah, that's every bit as ludicrous as expecting a doctor to help a sick individual outside of a hospital. An off duty police officer can carry a gun. An off duty firefighter doesn't drive a fire engine around town.

EDIT: Moreover if it is not the place of an off duty police officer to stop a violent crime, how is it the place of an ordinary citizen? You don't expect an ordinary citizen to put out a burning building or rescue a person from a heart attack do you?

So you're saying that the gun is the tool that allows the off-duty police officer to make a difference, and that as someone who can make a difference, he is morally obligated to try? You also seem to have skipped over my post where i pointed out that you missed JLee's point. And yes, I expect an ordinary citizen, if he is willing, to do what he can with what he has in those situations.

On a somewhat unrelated note, for those who like charts! Here is a graph of a state's brady score plotted against its violent crime rate. The higher the score, the more restrictive the gun laws (guess which one is California?). This particular graph doesn't exactly shine a spotlight on anything in particular, but I still think it's interesting.

The off duty police officer being a person who is trained to use that weapon to make a difference.

A guy doesn't run off the street into an E.R. with a scalpel saying "this is the right thing to do!"

You're right. But then again, a trained and certified first responder has taken a basic first aid course and can do plenty to help in many situations. In fact, a trained certified first responder has a duty to help. Keep in mind, we're talking about a basically trained, educated, and equipped license holder, not some guy off the street who found a ghetto blaster in a trash can.

You may be surprised to learn that there are a lot of private citizens who practice with their firearms much more regularly than many officers. We're only required to qualify once a year - that's it.

I don't have a vest, radio, backup, handcuffs, or other tools off duty.

I don't expect anyone to intervene, nor is it anyone's obligation. However, I, as well as many others, will do so regardless.

Required to qualify once a year. That doesn't mean you need not practice to qualify.

Also, please stop posting links to news stories regarding shootings wherein if a ordinary citizen had drawn a concealed weapon and killed the shooter they would have been in violation of the law as well being that they were on a college campus, inside a mall, etc...

Inside a mall is not illegal. Not all schools are illegal to have guns in. Not only that, but if I could lose my license and go to jail in exchange for the students at Virginia Tech's lives, I'd do it. Please, though, read/watch the other stories.

I don't need to practice to qualify.



Perhaps next time you should do a little research.

Ok, so people in Utah can carry guns wherever they damn well please.

And I spoke of practicing only because you said some gun enthusiasts practice more than police officers, making them more qualified to have guns apparently.

In other words, you've got nothin'.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html

I even used a Fox News article for all you gun nuts.

Maybe you should do a little research....

I imagine they're the same as they are in most places (NH and AZ anyway), in which case the property owner can request that you leave and if not you're trespassing. You're not going to get arrested solely for carrying. Arizona also requires that any business posting such signs will provide suitable lockers to store firearms for people who enter.

If you really want to prove your point, find me an incident where a citizen carrying concealed with a permit was charged with a crime for using a weapon in self defense (or defense of a third party) solely due to possessing the firearm in violation of posted signs on private property.

I have yet to not carry a gun just because a sign said not to. If anybody knows I have it, it's because I'm saving someone's life and their sign is the last thing on my mind. But hey, that's just me.

No. I've already proven my point.

You're a cop! You're allowed to have one in a gun free zone!

What is your point, exactly? That CCW holders commit crimes? Don't prevent crimes? What?

Nope, not always.