There doesn't have to be a gunfight for a movie not to be boring. The movie can be summed up in exactly one sentence: "Jesus got the **** beat out of him for his beliefs." Welcome to the real world, lots of peopel ahve gotten the **** beat out of them for their beliefs. I'm not going to compare and contrast them with jesus. The point was, the movie was not interesting.

------------------
WOOSH.
-----@%

I doubt anyone is that stupid. I knew exactly what kind of movie it would be - no surprises there. I just didn't think it was very well done.




Or maybe they're smart enough to realise this kind of disrespect will only push me further away from the religion.


------------------
When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Indeed. He was crucified for spreading love. WTH is wrong with people?
I was being sarcastic. Have you ever had a Muslim even explain or share his/her beliefs? You'd probably actually have to ask.
(It's possible to share beliefs without pushing them on someone. It's a shame that so many people see sharing as pushing... not that I think you do.)

Level-headed Christians try to share and explain what they believe, so you know at least one more thing available to you. Those less level-headed will just try to shove God down your throat.

------------------
"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

I have to say I'm quite disturbed by some of the comments on here by a few people. A few things that bother me quite a bit are the fact that some of you equate Jesus' historical existance with his being the messiah and the son of God. That is fine if you are Christian, however, there just happen to be a number of people in the world who are of other faiths which don't share this belief. A person of Jewish faith knows that Jesus existed, however, they just don't believe that he was what Christians claim him to be.

Another thing that bothers me is the amount of Anti-semitism denial that has stemmed from all this contreversy over the movie. There is so much anti-semitism in the world today, and it has been going strong for much longer than Christianity has been around, I doubt "The Passion" will singlehandedly cause any huge rise that wouldn't have come about on its own.

However, it must be said that the particular sect of Christianity that Mel Gibson, as well as his father (who has publically stated that he believes that the holocaust was "exagerrated", and that most of the polish Jews simply got up and left...)
belong to is one that does not forgive the Jews for the "deicide" of Jesus. This speaks volumes IMHO. After all, a movie is not some self creating entity which gives us a window on the past. Any one with common sense knows that every shot in a film must be carefully manipulated to achieve the director's desired effect. Look no further than Gibson's own mind and beliefs for the realism of this movie.

At the same time, I find it ironic and apalling that many people will swear that the movie isn't anti-semitic, when the events depicted in the movie were cause enough for 2000 years of some of the most vicious anti-semitism the world had ever seen.

To those who said that the Sanhedrin was corrupt at the time of Jesus, you are correct. Jews will agree with you, and then some. In fact, they believe that this is the cause for the destruction of the temple, that most of the Jews at the time had turned away from the Jewish morals and ideals...and that God had taught them a lesson from the destruction. So yes, the Sanhedrin was corrupt at the time, just like the Church has been corrupt for...let's see...since its inception. Christianity has not had a very spotless record historically to say the least.

But instead of focusing on blaming people who are not of Christian faith for feeling offended that some people are spouting off impressions like "this is how it really happened", we should just take into consideration that, after all, it's only a movie, and should be viewed as such.




[This message has been edited by Agent-Smith (edited March 08, 2004).]

Agent:

1) Although it was reported by one source, there is no actual proof that Mel Gibson blames the jews for the crucifixion of Jesus, and he has in fact said publicly quite the contrary. The fact is, there was a LOT of liberal media trying to derail this movie before it got released, and they were willing to stoop to "dirty" levels to do it, i.e. "We can't get Mel to condemn himself, so I got an idea, let's put on air his clinically insane father!" A low blow. This cannot be ignored in your equation, if you want an honest picture.

2) Maybe I need to reread again, but I didn't think anyone was claiming that there was no anti-sematism in the world - just that there was none in the movie. And if you disagree, at least then have the balls to come out and say you think Christianity is anti-sematic. You would be wrong, but at least you would finally be honest, if you believe that way.

3) With regards to the anti-sematism from the events of the movie - look at the flip side. Both jews and romans were hunting and killing christians past this point until 300 years later, when the roman emperor at the time allowed christianity to be practiced openly without fear of death. Right or wrong, that will lead to hard feelings. It isn't fair to look at just one side - you need to see both if you honestly care about understanding, rather than pushing an agenda (not saying you are, but not saying you aren't either). The fact of the matter is, you will nowadays (with reference to christianity) find people who are quite the opposite of anti-sematic, with the exception of fringe groups not recognised by mainstream christianity. Would you judge the muslim faith by the actions of Terrorists or the Nation of islam? I highly doubt it, if you are reasonable. Then why is it ok for you to claim some hateful, fringe majority speaks for the mainstream of christianity, which seems to be one of the tones of your post?

4) Yes, it is only a movie, and should be viewed as such, but it should be viewed as such in the category of a Schindler's List - a movie, but with a ton of historical facts backing it. And before you open your mouth, I mean anthropological, not biblical (although it has that too).

5) Finally, on anti-sematism and christiainity, I will fully admit, that while not anti-sematic, we in the mainstream do not quite get jews, in that, we share the same history, yet those who seem to be in power seem to be very unorthodox jews, and more caring about condemning and pissing on christianity, when if they would be more supportive of us rather than kicking us in the teeth every chance they get (the public jewish "leaders"), we as a christian mainstream would be flocking to their cause in preventing anti-sematism. Most christians view jews as religious "cousins" so to speak - they are still family. But when a family member tends to do nothing but make you feel like crap, you tend not to visit any more.

Of course, this could be the case of a vocal minority speaking for a protesting majority, as I know that is what happens in christianity, but the question then is, why hasn't anyone tried to publicly speak up? In the same vein, maybe they are, but the media isn't airing it, because it counters their agenda - same could be said for christiantiy - they will always look for the biggest yokel, who paints a bad picture of christianity.

Essentially, my whole point is, you can't look at one without looking at the flip side of the coin - at least not honestly and openly look.

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

Fear, you insinuate so much towards me that which you don't even know. I don't have an "agenda", I'm just stating my opinion about a few things that bother me. That's all, take from my incoherent rambling what you will...

However, you seem to just point the finger more instead of actually adressing my points.

First of all, in #1 of your post, you refer to the Jewish organizations' fault of bringing up Mel's "clinically insane father" as you put it. I had stated that they both belonged to the same sect of Christianity which believes in a certain mindset, and stated what his father has actually said. Once again, take from it what you will. what his dad said is not the issue, but I brought it up because what he speaks of applies. The issue is that they both belong to the same sect of Christianity which still condemns Jews for the "deicide" of Jesus. why do you want to argue this point more? I'm only stating the facts. This was investigated by a major metropolitan newspaper, and it did not come from a statement by "Jewish Organizations". If anything, you show a very open bias towards Jews because you said that they keep treating Christians like crap. I myself am agnostic, but I have many friends of both the Christian and Jewish faiths. My own personal opinion is that I do respect the Jewish faith more than Christianity. I think that is quite clear in my posts, but this is only my opinion. If you think you feel kicked in the teeth the Jews, they have been kicked in the teeth repeatedly for much longer by Christians. You downplay this fact very much.

your points in #4 just cannot be compared. You equate an event from 60 years ago which people can give eye witness accounts of , to an event which occured 2000 years ago, which most of the "accuracy"from the movie come from the gospels?

As well, if Christians believe that anyone who does not accept Jesus as their savior will go to hell, then would you like to explain to me why should the Jews, or any other faith, just accept that Christianity is so wonderful when no matter how good a person you are, you go to hell just because you didn't give in to the pressure tactic of believing that Jesus was anyhting more than a man who thought he was something he might not have been. However, these are just problems that I personally have with Christian belief that belongs more in the religious forum than in here.These are just my opinions that say more about my skepticism than it does about Christianity, but that's just what I think, and what I'm currently trying to grapple with in my own mind.

Fear, you seem to make a point of accusing eveyone but Mel Gibson of having an agenda. We understand that you love this movie, as many others do. I'm quite a big fan of Mel gibson's previous work myself. I loved Braveheart and Signs, and those are two of my top favorite movies. However, I must reiterate my point that they, like "The Passion",are only movies.

I walked in to the theatre a non-believer, and walked out a Christian. Don't Laugh, seriously.

[This message has been edited by Delphian (edited March 08, 2004).]

That's awesome!

------------------
BV's rendition of Titanic: Let's have sex. I won't let go. I don't need this stone.
The End.
~ Wolfy

Delphian, that is awesome!

But a word to you.

Let the movie be a starting point, not the whole reason for your faith. I encourage you, as a starting point, to begin to research the facts behind the movie, as in the political climate at the time, the roman presence, and jewish beliefs. While all not directly religious, you will find a wealth of archeological information to arm yourself against people who say that the movie is "a work of fiction" or "just a story from the Bible". Plus, it will give you even more of an appreciation of what Jesus did.

Just remember these keys, and you will be ok as a Christian -

1) Keep God first and foremost. We all struggle with it, but never stop trying.

2) Never assume that anyone has more insight and knowledge of the Bible than you. In other words, don't take any one, no matter how much you respect them, at face value. Always check up what they are saying to see if it is biblical, and also to see if it is in line with the example Jesus set out for us in the Gospels.

3) Learn the context for everything in the Bible - as in this: Who wrote it, who it was written to, and why the original author wrote it. This will help you in not taking something out of its intended context, and applying it to broadly or too narrowly.

4) Remember, as a christian, we are called to inform, NOT convert. We give people all the information as accurate as we can, but we are NOT to manipulate them, threaten them, or harrass them in any way - certain people, even respected pastors, preachers, and priests, do NOT do this, so this is why you need to be VERY careful. Jesus told his disciples that if anyone rejects them, to just shake the dust off their sandals and move on. That is the example we are to take when someone we are talking to doesn't want to hear about christianity.

5) When in doubt, look at the example Jesus set. If you are in doubt, look to how Jesus handled the situation in the Gospels - we have that tough standard to live up to.

6) Remember, that not everyone is a christian, so don't overstep your bounds and expect everyone to behave that way. Everything is a progression - you don't feed a baby a steak, you wean him on a bottle first. Likewise, as you grow, remember not to get too deep when talking about God to people who do not believe. Save the deep stuff for your christian friends - the non christians only need to hear the basics. This will help you out in getting more out of your time with talking to them, and help them get more out of their time talking to you.

7) Pray. Keep in mind, prayer isn't necessarily you getting on your knees, folding your hands, and saying something formal. Prayer is defined as conversation with God. So, you could be driving, eyes open, and just think in your head "Hey God, what's up?" - that is a prayer. Keep in mind God is not a genie in a lamp, and does not exist to grant you wishes, but at the same time, he will help you in your struggles to be able to emotionally and spiritually overcome. He doesn't always (although he does sometimes) eliminate trouble - he just helps you become a better person by overcoming them. Prayer is the most powerful tool you will have.

That's a start. The rest is up to you.


Agent:

I am out of time - I will address you tomorrow morning, but one thing - I think it is you "who insinuate so much towards me that which you don't even know." Tomorrow, I will tell you why, I promise.

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

As a Catholic I'm a little suspicious of Mel's particular sect, and some of their rumored animosities toward the papacy, but I'll probably see the movie at some point.

------------------
Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

In MY opinion, I thought the scenes with Satan were extremely well done (save the last one), and that 'mutated baby' you guys were talking about represented the Anti-Christ. Yes. That baby is the most disturbing baby I ahve ever seen in my life. Yes I am a Christian. And Flexor, it bugs me that you ahve such a strong hatred of religion and Christianity when you have absolutely not clue about it [Christianity]... just, ugh...

------------------
Member of the Minneassian Council

I havent read everything from the other pages, but it looks like you are talking about how christians have a tendancy to try and get you to be christian. You have to think from our perspective for a second.

We think that when we die, we will go to heaven because we belive in God and have tried to live without sin. Now when i have a really close friend who is around my age who doesnt belive in God at all, the reason i would want him or her to belive in my religion is because i want to see him or her in heaven when i die, and i want to live eternity with this person because they make me feel good, and i would not want them to be put up to torment and such in hell because they strongly disbelive in God.

You just need to know that the normal christian is trying to save you from something you cannot understand unless you were to belive in God, and since some people dont want to, they will never really understand. The crazy christians (the only ones you hear about in the news are the crazy ones, sadly :\) are the ones who try to forcably push their belifs onto you. There's 'crazy ones' of every group, its just the religious group ones that stand out and make the entire group look bad. There's a lot of people who would make humans look bad to extra terrestrials

------------------
There are two asses in Massassi... and I'm one of them.
The Matrix Unplugged|The Valley of the Jedi Tower|Smaug's Lair

As I've mentioned in my last post, I'm agnostic for the time being and trying to make sense of certain religions, however, one thing that I am sure of is that Christianity is not right for me. However, this is only my opinion.

I just don't see the validity in a religion which believes that only those who believe in Jesus as his\her savior go to heaven, and that you could be a humble, generous, kind, loving person, and go to hell, because you weren't "saved". All because of original sin. You could be a cold blooded serial killer of many, many people on death row, who in the last day of his life finds Jesus, and truly believes...he gets a one way ticket to heaven, while the kind, caring, loving, generous Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc... get a one way ticket down south. I simply cannot morally stand by a religion which has this core belief.

I always tried to believe that people are born neutral with the equal capacity for both good or evil. Your actions, the way you live your life are the most important things to work on. It is a lifelong process, striving to be a good person first and foremost. I'm not saying Christianity doesn't value being a good person, I'm simply saying that, morally, these are issues which I think cannot be flowered up or sugar coated.

But hey, if you believe in Christianity, and that it makes you strive to be a good person, then that's all that matters IMHO because I'm sure the real God allows someone of other faiths too who value that same thing (and actually does it) to have a shot at heaven.

Fear-
I'm sorry if you believe that I'm pointing the finger back at you. If you believe I am wrong about my understanding of certain core Christian beliefs, you are welcome to explain to me otherwise. I try to be open minded, but certain things bother me deeply, like the concepts I've stated above.




[This message has been edited by Agent-Smith (edited March 08, 2004).]

You obviously have not seen baby stat. I looked like a bite-size ET.

------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Agent - I think it best that I go directly to your more recent post, as it gives me better insight into your reaction into the original one I wanted to address, but I do wish to clear up these things with the original -

The media and Hollywood were trying to make sure "The Passion" would bomb by pulling out all the stops. Notice how Mel Gibson's religion wasn't even an issue until this movie was nearing release. It's smear campaign, used to try to get the movie to fail. That said, I have frequently seen the media intentionally misrepresent things they disagree with firsthand - I was at a republican rally when Bush was touring during the first election, and there was news coverage there. They interviewed many of us, most of whom I could overhear, and had very good, articulate points for our reasoning to support Bush. But there were some idiots there too, who looked like backwater yokels (think NASCAR stereotype). Guess which made the cut to air on the news later that night and the next day? Yep, the idiots. I know there were some enthusiatic and intelligent people there that they could have aired, but they went with the side most damaging to Bush. That is how the media conducts business. To focus more on Mel's "sect",

a) We have no idea if the media has appropriately represented that sect

b) I have never heard Mel say he belongs to any sect of Roman Catholocism (although he might)

c) His father is mentally ill - and I am not kidding - therefore, it was a cheap tactic to air him

d) Regardless of what sect Mel is a part of, he has routinely said that the jews were not solely responsible for crucifying Jesus - that we all are to blame, equally. I would trust what the man has said himself rather than what others have said about him. He never said he blamed the Jews. Even if it is true about his sect blaming the jews, do we know that isn't history? It would be like seeing racism in the south, and then thinking all southerners are racist... being a part of a group doesn't automatically make you everything the group encompasses - you can disagree with things and still be a part of the group.

That addressed, let me get down to your more recent post.



I will do my best. One thing to keep in mind is that not even christians have a handle on their own core beliefs. And it's because of some of the people who you have had negative experiences with. If you want to see what the core beliefs are, you need to go right to the Bible, and read it as it was intended - simple and straightforward, and in context. People are a lousy representative of their faith, and the good ones are too busy living it to run around and brag about how good they are. Hence, the birth of the "vocal minority".

Now, I will do my best to address everything, and feel free to ask me questions. But keep in mind - I am not trying to convert you. That isn't my, nor any other christians' job. I am just making sure you have all the correct facts and perspectives on the christian faith. Beyond that, I realize that a person's faith must be their own - you can neither put it in your back pocket and forget about it, nor have it forced on you. Thus, whether you believe is between you and God. I am just here for information.



Definitely a more catholic dogma, but not biblical. "Original sin" is a concept by the catholic church, not the Bible. They slapped a name on the first sin in the bible, and suddenly drew all these conclusions because of it. But it isn't true. Here is the truth, according to the Bible:

God is a perfect being, and also perfectly pure. He cannot tolerate impurity in his presence. Don't think of tolerate in an emotional sense - think of it like a bad reaction to a drug a doctor gives you. He cannot have it there. Here is where the sin comes in. In our lives, no matter how good we are, we still do something God disapproves of sometime in our life. Even the slightest bit done wrong is enough to separate us from him, as again, he has a 0 tolerance for sin. Now, on the question of kids, Jesus said that the person who is ignorant of their sin will be less punished than those not. What that means is, it gives you the fact that since those who sin are at risk of hell, those who are ignorant will not be in hell, since theirs is a lesser punishment (what I do not know). Hence, kids do not get sent to hell - there is the proper reasoning for it. However, once you hit the time where you can reason in an adult manner AND are exposed to Jesus, you are no longer ignorant, even if you didn't listen, because it was your choice not to. And that is where some of the stuff you are dealing with comes into play.



I should start with this: Everyone is on equal footing - we all are going to hell in the start. God saw and realized this, and hence sent Jesus, and you know that story so I won't bore you, but let me give you why it was done. God gave us Jesus as his own legal loophole to rectify us with him. In the old ways, people needed to routinely sacrifice animals as a repentance offering for their sins. They needed to do this repeately, as no animal was perfect enough to take care of their sin permanently. Jesus comes along, leads the sinless life none of us could, and dies for us, abolishing the routine sacrifices, and becoming the perfect sacrifice, so we are all clean. The catch is, it's a gift. You need to accept a gift before you can use it.
The perception that God sends people to heaven or hell is the wrong one... we all are heading to hell. It's just that God uses Jesus as a rescue rope, and those who believe in Jesus decided to grab the rope, and those who don't believe decided they wouldn't. Jesus is there to rescue, not condemn - because all of us were already condemned in the first place.

Now, here I am sure to shake things up a bit, not only with you, but with some christians here as well. Yes, if a cold-blooded killer truly accepts Jesus, he gets to heaven. But if he does it to save his own skin, then he truly doesn't believe, and he won't. God already said the payment for sin is death - if a killer killed people, what more deserving punishment is there than for his own mortality to be taken away (no, I am not going in a pro-anti death penalty argument - this is purely theological there)? Death for death. To want anything more is malicious - the killer did not have the power to condemn souls, so why condemn his? If he believes, then post death, he will have his slate wiped clean like everyone else. If not, then like everyone else, the taint of his sins will not only linger in the body, but in the soul as well, and he will be properly punished for that. That's the deal, and one I am sure you will have a hard time swallowing. Jesus came to save anyone who believes in him, regardless - he does not pick favorites.

Now it's time to piss off the christians here. You are correct that based in christianity, anyone, jews, muslims, hindu, etc will get a ticket south, but not because of there religion; its because they are just in the same boat as everyone else.
Now here comes the part sure to piss people off - the key to salvation has always been Jesus. Therefore, if any of the members of the above religions decided to believe that Jesus died for their wrongs, and was the perfect sacrifice, and was the son of God, but in every other aspect held true to their own religion, they are saved. Jesus is the only requirement. Yes, according to christianity, polytheism is a sin. But so is lying. So is cheating. So is spite. And no sin is better or worse than another, because they are all equally horrid in God's eyes. But if you have that belief in Jesus, then everything else is fine. A lot of christians subscribe to the "try my brand of christianity for the right way", yet they miss the point entirely. That is why the christian community needs to be more humble. There is nothing that separates them from anyone else in the world, regardless of religion or orientation, other than Jesus. And if one of those people believe in Jesus in the manner I mentioned above, they are as much saved as any christian. And that is biblical, when you actually read the bible in its appropriate context.



Only through Jesus, but remember to keep the persepctive - Jesus was sent not to condemn, but to be a lifeline. Think of it like this - everyone who ever existed is drowning in an ocean already. ALL of us. God isn't picking who drowns and who doesn't. He tosses out life preservers (Jesus) to everyone. Yet it is each individual's choice whether to grab on. If they drown, it isn't from God not trying to help them - it's because they, for whatever reason, refused the help offered to them.


I hope this helps somewhat...

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

First, the supposed anti-semetism in the movie is BS. Jesus was Jewish, his deciples were jewish, his mother, the people who showed compassion for him... and so on.

So you're saying you don't like the idea of forgiveness? Jesus made the sacrifice to once and for all remove sin. It's necessary to accept the sacrifice. You can't expect a sinless God to allow sin to enter into heaven, can you? It has less to do with belief than it does acceptance.

Animal sacrifices (as required in days before Jesus) only covered sin. Jesus's sacrifice actually removes the sin completely from you.

So the question is this: Would you rather try to live without sin (as no mere human can), or accept Jesus and have sin removed? Really? Raise a child without teaching him/her the difference between good & evil, and the presence of original sin becomes evident later in the child's life.

------------------
"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

Thanks guys for the insights.

Dogsrool, I don't know why you think that I don't like the idea of forgiveness...my idea of repenting for sins is to do more good deeds. And you think that just because you don't teach your son or daughter about "what Jesus did for us" and about Heaven and hell according to Christianity that they don't know the difference between good and evil?

Fear, thanks for taking the time to type all that down and it really has helped my understanding of Christian belief. However, I must also say that your points seemed to have the effect of confirming my concerns with Christianity, rather than elating them.
With your post (and dogs' post as well) you make it quite clear that Jesus is the only way to salvation. I understand that there is no getting around that, but that is my main concern. You mention that people of other faiths can accept Jesus and still practice their own religions and go to heaven, but that simply is a contradiction in certain other religions. You make a good analogy about Jesus being a life preserver in the drowning waters of the afterlife, however, Christianity (to me) still operates on the basic tribalistic notion that "all members of the tribe go to heaven, and the rest go to hell". Christianity, in my opinion, just does a better job of sugarcoating the issue.

There are some religions in the world that do not operate on this notion. Judaism I know is one, for example. There must be others as well...I hope. For example, one of my friend's dad is a rather religious orthodox Rabbi. I asked him about two months ago what the Jewish belief is on Heaven and hell and he said that according to Jewish belief, if you strive to lead a good life by doing good deeds, being honest, loving, etc... than God allows you to go to Heaven regardles of what religion you belong to. It is the striving to become better than you currently are that is the key. Acoording to Jews, they are no more likely to get into Heaven than Christians or members of other faiths. He told me that yes everyone sins, but how you repent for it is very different in Judaism that in Christianity (much more in line with what I believed...). He said that in Judaism, personal growth is what is important, along with the repentance itself. Yes, you should repent by doing more good deeds, but you should also strive to become a better person, so you will not be as inclined to sin whenever the opporunity arises. He told me that your actions speak louder than your belief. Believing is terrific but if it just allows you to get off scott free, what kind of lesson does that teach you?

This really struck me as a much more realistic and life-long approach to improving oneself. I must say that I was much more moved than by any explanations I had recieved regarding my concerns with Christianity. I'm not saying I'm ready to convert, but since that time, I've really come to respect Judaism and its beliefs more.

What you said about bias in the media is definitely true, and applies to everyone. Yes, it is totally wrong, and everyone is affected in different ways by it.

You also mentioned that Jesus will save everyone who believes in him...that he does not pick favorites. Well, it sure seems like he does because according to Christian belief, only those who do believe in him go to Heaven. Look, everyone sins, regardless of religion, the question is how do you deal with that and what does it teach you?

Hypothetically, if you just keep sinning terribly your whole life, and then TRULY accept and believe in Jesus, and get a free ticket to heaven...why? you haven't actually done anything, any actions (not just beliefs) to make up for what you have sinned.

Ok, now I've spent way too much time typing all this down, and there is just too much to say all in this post.

I guess I come off as extremely skeptical of Christianity, while more open to Judaism, but to be honest, at this point, I haven't heard anything which has convinced me to change my current view...but then again, that's just me and my opinions.

I mean, who knows, maybe someone will change my opinions on Christianity, but so far, all i've heard is the same thing, but sugarcoated in many different ways.



[This message has been edited by Agent-Smith (edited March 09, 2004).]

You would not believe the looks people at church give you when you step outside for a smoke.

------------------
please *

I read through about the first page and a half of this thread. Osiris' post about being disgusted was spot on. Alot of peoples comments regarding this movie are offensive. I would think people would have the decency to be respectful of the subject matter considering how deeply personal it is to so many people.

I saw the film yesterday. I am not what I would consider a religious person. The movie tells a factual story with religious embellishments. It is a definite must see. I would suggest seeing it in the theater to get the full effect. In my experience those who are giving the film bad reviews are doing so to further their own agenda.

The film is not for everyone. It is extremely violent. It is not easy to watch what man can do to his fellow man. From a religious perspective it may persuade non-Christians to look into that faith. We all know Jesus existed and we all know he was tortured to death. Being an atheist or whatever is no reason to not see the film.

My favorite thing about this whole film is how successful it has been. So many people and groups with agendas denounced this film before they had even seen it. Screw 'em.

------------------
former TACC outcast

This is exactly what I'm talking about. No christian I've ever known has ever said something along the lines of "hey, I believe this, and you believe that. Maybe I'm right, maybe you're right", no, to them, I'm always non christian because I'm "incapable" of understanding something and they apparently are. Don't you realise how disrespectful that is?

And to be honest, if I was given a choice between being cleansed of my sins or keeping them, I'd much rather keep them. If that means going to hell, so be it. I can also tell you christians alone are what made me think this way.


------------------
When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Fear: Excellent job, and good theology. I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate how you're handling this.

Agent-Smith: Same story. It's refreshing to see a non-Christian that is honestly looking for the right way to live his/her life, and considers situations openly and logically.

Flexor: Get over it. It happens. Just because some people you know annoy you doesn't mean that everyone with similar beliefs exists just for that person. That's as bad as racial profiling. Have I ever "shoved religion down your throat"? How about Fear or some of the other Christians on this board. Perhaps there have been some that have... But not most of them.

Now, some specific quotes.

Uhh, your basically right, but I think it's actually 40 lashes, not 30. As to that, I didn't count when I saw it, so I can't really make a judgement on that issue.

That's true. Someone raised a concern to Mel about that line, and he, not wanting to fuel anti-semitism or the idea that this movie was anti-semite, took out the subtitles, so most people would not understand what was being said anyway.

Uhh, I don't think anyone's actually proved that Mel's sect (which is basically very formal catholocism) behaves in that manner. I think that's mostly just manipulation of facts by the media. I suppose I could be wrong though.

Actually, he said the media was responsible, not "Jewish organizations." You've since agreed with him though. Just wanted to point that out.

See above.

Sort of. It's not so cut and dry as, "I'm a horrible person, I'll just pray to Jesus right before I die and I'll be fine." God can tell the difference between a liar and someone truly repentant.

Yes, but the problem is what's good enough? What's not good enough? How can you tell the difference? According to Christianity, *any* act of sin is enough to keep you out of the presence of God (see Fear's posts). Jesus was a way of removing that sin. There just isn't any other way to do it.

Proof of this can be seen in Diane Sawyer's interview of Mel shortly before the release. All of her questions/comments were designed to make Mel slip up and say something that could be smeared across the newspapers. Luckily, Mell is rational and smart enough to not fall into those snares.

He does... I don't know much details except that they don't accept the most recent catholic reforms. I'm sure you could find out more if you did some research.

Did he give you references in Jewish sacred writings to back this up? Because I honestly don't know of any. (Maybe some of our jews on the board can help to clear this up).

Christianity does *NOT* teach that you can just keep living in sin and getting your sins forgiven. If you're not striving to make yourself better (with his help) then you're not getting his blessing. I'll talk more about this later... But I'm out of time right now.

------------------
Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).

Agent, best I can tell you is that what I said was not sugar-coated, but in fact just the straight up biblical theology. Now if we are misunderstanding on semantics, and you are just trying to say I just said the same things a different way, then I am fine with that.

Here are some things I feel the need to point out:

Your dad's rabbi friend - there are different groupings of jews, much like the christian denominations, and a lot of main orthodox ones believe that if you are jewish, you need to adhere to the best you can to laws that I believe either number in the 600's or 6000's (I forget the number of 0's after the 6). And I would certainly place the Torah as prescedence over what an individual rabbi has to say. No religious leader, regardless of what religion they practice, is infallable.

On different religions compatability with Jesus - you need to get more of a backround on the world religions. Most religions, including Hinduism, are polytheistic, and adding one more God to their beliefs will have little impact on their earthly life. So the addition of Jesus would not run counter to their previously held beliefs. The only modern religion where I can say this is a sticky issue is the muslim faith, which says God cannot beget not is begotten. But that too can be worked around - part of Christian belief is that he is an extension of God. Therefore, a muslim can believe that an extension of God, in the form of Jesus, died corporeally and rose in that manner to wash away their sins forever, and still hold true to their muslim belief. Some christians might be miffed that the muslims don't title him the Son of God, but hey, that is semantics, and I am more concerned with souls.

So yes, christianity can be added to any religion, and still have that religion retain its cultural identity. Those who disagree usually are those who fear losing members to christianity because of that exposure.

On respecting Judaism - I know, they have my respect as well. I sort of consider jewish people my religious cousins.


On Jesus picking and choosing - the point I am trying to make is this: Jesus doesn't pick and choose; we do. We either pick Jesus or not. The best analogy I can come up with is this: you are sick, and to get better, you need to take medicine that tastes awful, or you will die. You really do not want to take that medicine, but the medicine is there to help you. You still have the choice to take it or not. But just because you do not like the medicine does not mean that you will ever get better by not taking it. To get better, you NEED to take the medicine. I hope you can draw a better parallel with that analogy.

On the free-ticket thing - Here is something to ponder: God truly and deeply loves us. ALL of us. He wants everyone to accept Jesus and be saved. But, like any of us, he wants us to love Him for who he is, not what he can do for us. Can you claim deep down to desire anything different? That's why he gives us the choice to love him back or not. Those who love him will choose him. The big thing here is that God is incapable of tolerating any blemishes, therefore, a sinful man before God would likely be obliterated by his presence anyway. Therefore Jesus was God's workaround. If there was any other way to both save humanity, and to have people love Him for Him, God would have found it and used it.

And btw, the issues you bring up about last second conversions and such are actually addressed in the Bible. The frame of mind is, yes, someone rotten on earth now gets into heaven, but to God, that is one more person who he has always loved despite all that is wrong with them, who He now gets to share eternity with. Again, another perspective for you to consider.

All in all Agent, I am glad you keep an open mind. If it comes down to a choice between Judaism and Christianity, pray that God points you in the direction to go, and listen to Him - both christians and Jews worship the same God, so you only have to pray to one God - no multitasking necessary.



Oh yes I would. But I dislike smoking for health reasons, not religious ones...



I do Flexor. That is why I try personally not to do it. Jesus didn't do it that way, and He is the example we are called to follow. So I do my best to follow that example. You are fully capable of understanding anything and everything about christianity. Open and willing? That is something else entirely... but capable? Yes, you are, as is everyone who exists. The question is, do they want to understand, or just willingly continue in having misconceptions about it?

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

Where did I say that? I said if you don't teach your children the difference between good and evil, "original sin" becomes evident. When they get older, they [unknowingly] do wrong. Why wrong instead of right? But you seem to be ignoring why. God's not some hippie that's all "whatever, man. No rules." Of course not. They're still waiting for a messiah. Supposedly, Jesus doesn't fit the Old Testament discription, yet on another site, I provided a whole list of OT prophecies that foretold of Jesus's life & death in explicit detail. It's funny that the Jewish texts teach differently. Yet that could probably be said of any religion.

Christianity has nothing to do with belonging to the religion. Jesus removes sin. Therefore, he is a way to heaven. I'll use this analogy: You can't drive a car from Mexico to Hawaii. You require something specific to get there, just as you require something specific to get to heaven. Very true. Christians are supposed to represent our God, yet for some unfortunate reason, we fail miserably at it. The reason is this: few people understand salvation, and want to press the envelope of decency, when in fact it isn't necessary. God realized we couldn't be without sin on our own and fulfill the "law," so he sent Jesus. Belief is much easier than trying to be perfect and sinless. Love? Compassion? Understanding? Patience? It says "I know your only human, and therefore you make mistakes. I'm here to pick you up when you fall." Right. God will accept anyone who truly believes and follows him. That clearly implies that he's already chosen to accept everyone. The decision is yours. God's already made His decision. I've said it lots of times: It's a relationship that requires both partners (Christian & God) to share love. (No, that's not an analogy.) My personal favorite Bible verse in such a situation: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I promise you, they'll look down at the ground, turn around, and walk away. Try it. It shouldn't be. You can't fully understand anything unless you're involved in it. Christianity is no exception to the rule. I take all the theology classes I can get my hands on to learn about the teachings of Christianity, but it's not going to make me fully understand & comprehend it. (Same thing goes for any field of study. I study electronics, but all the studying doesn't give me the experience I need to get the best grasp on it.)

So I ask you: Why do you judge Christianity (and its followers) on the actions a few people you've encountered. But I bet you can't provide a reason why. But you're not looking at it the opposite way. I Corinthians 8:6 - "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."
That rules out polytheism.

------------------
"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited March 09, 2004).]

True - it only goes one way, not the reverse. It isn't right for a christian to be polytheistic, but at the same time, keep in mind - Jesus trumps all. Everyone sins, and polytheism is no different than a lie or any other sin to God, which means all of us who sin are on the same level as any polytheist. So I take the view that it is better for someone to believe in the redeeming power of Jesus than to be held back from it because they think it clashes with their beliefs. At least then, even if they never fully get into christianity, they will still be redeemed into heaven. And if they get more into christianity, great! But I certainly would not prod - I would only be a resource. Jesus is the key, I give them the info, and I let God do His work.

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

Ok, a few questions (if anyone is still reading this thread, which I havent been, so sorry if they've been answered already).

I am not religious, and have a minimal knowledge of the whole who / what / where of the Bible.

What the hell was up with Satan? She (it?) just kinda wandered around looking scary most of the movie, then near the end she had a weird looking mini-me in her arms. What the devil was up with that?

What was the purpose of Monica Bellucci's character? I guess she's historically significant in the grand scheme or something, but in The Passion she didnt do much apart from stand next to Mary and look sad.

What was up with the rest of Jesus' disciples? I thought he had 12, they only really showed Peter and John in the movie. Where did the other 10 get to?

I would express some opinions on the movie, but I dont think it's really worth it at this stage of this thread. Very powerful in parts but needlessy graphic, I'll just leave it at that.

------------------
The Massassi-Map
There is no spoon.

[This message has been edited by Spork (edited March 10, 2004).]

Those were creative decisions on Mel Gibson's part, to essentially have the element of satan (he wanted it to be unisex) in the movie. I think the point of the midget baby was intended as satan taking a poke at Jesus and the whole Nativity thing. The only time satan is mentioned in the biblical account of the passion is that he entered Judas and then gave Jesus the kiss, which was to show the jewish guards who Jesus was.



She was Mary Magdalene, a hooker who Jesus saved from being stoned to death. She stopped prostituting, and took to following Jesus. She accompanies Mary, and is really only in there to maintain consistency with the Gospel account.



Jesus only took 2 or 3 to the disciples to the Garden - the rest stayed behind. They scattered and hid when Jesus was arrested, except for John and Peter.



The only thing I will say to that is, that the movie was made for christians to come in and see for themselves what Jesus went though in a story they too often take for granted. Was the movie graphic? Sure, definitely. But so was the actual crucifixion of Jesus. So while graphic, it was realistic - thus I would hardly call it needless.



------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

Sometimes violence is more harrowing when its implied instead of graphically depicted. Obviously, Mr Gibson disagrees with me.

------------------
The Massassi-Map
There is no spoon.

Fear and dogsrool, I'm sorry but I just can't seem to make any point without getting hammered.

Dogsrool seems to think he knows more about Judaism than orthodox Rabbis who study the Torah and Talmud every day and are deeply "involved" in their own religion. You said right after in reference to Christianity that you can't fully understand something unless you're fully involved in it. Why does that only apply to Christians may I ask? Your reactions to some of the Jewish perspectives I have consulted about are very negetive and do not help anyone, especially me.

Fear, You make very well thought out points which are presented in a much more mature and respectable way than some of Dogsrool's. However, I feel that there is just this innate bias that cannot be removed from our conversations about Jesus. I just feel like the same things are being restated again and again. Trust me, I know what you are telling me, and I've heard it countless times from others. It just so happens that you've presented it better than most. But I feel that there is a lack of understanding toward my skepticism toward Christianity that still hasn't been addressed. It appears that everyone just tries to sugarcoat the issue through more examples and different scenarios. However, the main problem I have with Christianity (again) is that-You don't accept Jesus, you go to hell- in the simplest description possible. This is the issue I'm grappling with, not what Jesus is trying to "really" do by this, or what does "saved" really mean, and so on and so forth...

Maybe I'm asking too much from you, and you don't have to keep convincing me if you don't want to. I find myself running short on time to make these long posts, which is why I'm ususally not the most active member on here. However, my own personal struggle with Religion will continue, and I'm sure I'll eventually come to a place whereI'll know I've made the right choice. However, one thing that will hold me to this is that I definitely believe in God. Many people on this board still have trouble with the idea, as did I when I was younger (being a child with parents who are both athiests...even though there is no such thing as atheism, only agnosticism...because you cannot prove God doesn't exist just as you cannot prove that he exists...but that is a whole other issue altogether that people would love to attack, I'm sure).
As for Atheists, there is a wonderful quote that I heard a while ago which has so much depth to it, that I must share it, even if I forgot who said it: "If you do not believe in God, then it simply says more about you than it does about God."

Agent, just understand that I am not trying to convince you - I am trying to find out what you know and don't know, and am trying to get at the heart of the matter for you. I think at this point I am not clearly understanding the heart of the matter for you, but in truth, I want to understand.

The last thing I want to do is pelt you with things that completely miss the mark, and still not get it - didn't work well for Job's friends, and I know it won't work well for me here either.

So what I guess I am saying is, I am willing to listen, if you can help me understand, and to please be patient with me if I don't get it right away. I am willing to try.

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

Fear, last i heard the Catholic church had recanted and said that they no longer held Mary Magdalene to be a 'fallen woman', in.. 1965? or so. The reference to her is that she had 7 demons cast out of her, nothing saying she was a prostitute or to connect her to the women caught in adultery thing. However, as has been mentioned Gibson's sect of Catholicism doesn't believe a lot of the more recent councils or revisions or whatever, so that's probably part of that.

Though it's not like they really publicised this change of mind as best i can tell, they just changed it and nobody ever found out i guess.

------------------
[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Dor, not everyone believes the Catholic church is awlays right either...
Anyway...

That's my understanding of it as well. Basically OT Jews put their faith in a coming Messiah. Then Jesus showed up. Some believed he was the Messiah and became Christians. Others didn't believe, and remained Jews. To them, nothing's changed. They're still waiting for the Messiah to show up. If I've got this wrong, feel free to correct me. But anyway, that's the reason I'm skeptical of your friend rabbi who claims that the Jewish faith teaches that anyone who lives a good life will get into heaven. From what I understand, both Jews and Christians put their faith in the Messiah... They just have difficulties on agree on who that Messiah is.

Poetic liscence. Mel wanted to show that Satan had a direct role in what was happening. That in itself is a good argument against the film being anti-semitic, btw. By providing a character to play Satan (who doesn't truly exist in that (with the exception of Jesus at the very beginning) he/she/it doesn't converse with anyone throughout the movie). As for the mutated baby, I believe there is somewhere in the Bible a prophecy about the anti-Christ that describes a scene like there where Satan is holding a mutated baby like the one shown in the film. If so, it's probably a reference to that. However, I haven't been able to find anything to back that up, and so, at this point, it's just a vague rememberance that may or may not be Biblical. I'll ask my dad (who is a pastor and well-versed in the Bible and theology) about it tonight.

If you read the account of the resurrection (I believe in Matthew) it tells of Mary Magdalene meeting Jesus after the crucifixion, and upon recognizing him, she runs into his arms before he has a chance to explain anything. She was quite possible Jesus' closest *friend* on earth.

Sadly, most of the disciples scattered and fled during the crucifixion... In fact, from what I understand, only one of them actually watched Jesus being crucified. The rest were off somewhere else, not knowing what to do.

...I'm not sure where you got this idea, but it seemed to me that Mel *did* imply a lot of the violence. For example, for a large portion of the scourging scene, we're looking, not on the damage being done to Jesus' body, but on his mother's face. There's several other similar scenes where there is violence going on and the camera turns away. You're right about it being more powerful that way, btw, at least for me. I just disagree with you when you say that Mel didn't do that.

Well, you're right. That is the general gist of that. To me that's not much a problem to deal with, because I don't believe that that dynamic is God's fault. God sent a way (the only way) that is sufficient to save us from that sin. If we don't accept the gift, we're not saved from sin to put it quite bluntly. But I don't blame God for the original dynamic. I believe that was our fault, and God, being the merciful being that He is, tossed us a line. I guess that's just something you'll have to work through on your own. Just remember as you do, that God is so much bigger than you. To be honest, you don't really understand because you're human. I don't really understand it myself, and I think I (and apparently Fear as well) understand it more than most other Christians. You will never fully understand exactly how and why it happened this way. The key lies in being able to accept it anyway. I know it's hard, though.

Anyway, next post will be on God's blessing and living in sin (it's actually an issue that my church has been dealing with substancially lately, so I think I'm well qualified to share my beliefs/opinions on the matter).

------------------
Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).

And, as promised, a bit on God's blessing.

Imagine if you will that you're sitting in the middle of a field, surveying it to plant a garden there. Now the soil is packed and there's weeds and rocks all about. It's good, nutritious soil, but it's going to take a lot of work to get it into a place where it's going to grow anything useful. You don't have any seeds, but you'll worry about that after you've got the field prepared. You decide to start by moving the rocks. Unfortunately, lots of the rocks are much bigger than you can remove on your own. Naturally, you decide you'll get to those later, and begin by sifting through the dirt and tossing out pebbles and small stones. You're going about this when you notice someone watching you from the edge of the field. He says he's got a bunch of seeds you can use, and offers to help you move the rocks. You accept his help, and the two of you start moving the rocks together. He's very strong and moves some of the larger rocks you couldn't lift by himself. However some of the rocks he doesn't try to lift on his own. Those rocks the two of you lift together.You come to one particularily big rock, and you both bend over to start to lift it. At about this time, you decide that the rock is too big to move and you're too tired, and you'll just leave it there. The guy helping you starts to lift it, but you tell him, "No. Let's leave that one there." He pulls from his pocket some of the seeds. "Are you sure?" he askes. "We won't be able to till the soil with that rock there, and the flowers won't grow." You insist, and so the guy says, ok, and you move on.

Now, the garden represents your life, and the weeds and rocks there represent the sin in your life. The stranger that helps you is God, and the seeds/flowers represent the things God wants to do in your life. Quite often, people want God to do something in their lives, but they aren't willing to move the rocks. They say, "God, bless me!" And God says, "Ok, start moving that rock (sin), so I can plant these seeds (blessing)," and they say, "No, not that one, God. I don't want to remove that." So, God, never being one to force himself on anyone, leaves the rock there and simply doesn't plant. The person is still a Christian, even if they're unwilling to remove the sin. They just don't get to live the life that God has for them.

------------------
Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).

It did. It was the result of a Pope's sermon in which he amalgamated Magdalene and the adulteress into one person for the purpose of some point he was trying to make. I suppose he didn't think it would stick.

There's the reference to the adulteress, and soon thereafter to Mary Magdalene, but there isn't any connection.

------------------
Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

The concept of the messiah in Judaism only came after contact with the Zoroastrians. It never was that important of a concept; all that is discussed is that there will be a Messiah, and he (or she as some claim now) will come to unite Israel (as in the Jewish people, not necessarily the Middle-Eastern nation) into a golden age of peace and goodwill. He will also be completely human. Yes, Jews are waiting for a Messiah, but its date is completely up to the One above. There are a few theories that claim will herald the Messianic Age, such as a day when all of Israel observes a single proper Shabbat, or when the children are more observant than the elders (which is an idea the Hasidim love).

Oh, and lots of things have changed for Judaism. If you'd notice, we don't have a Temple, and now a whole bunch of us eat ham and cheese with clam chowder.

------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

He could be. You never know.

Don't worry, I didn't mean I based my faith on a film. Like you said, it's a starting point.

I'm not trying to hammer you. I realize that I'm very direct and assertive (which is ironic because I'm completely the opposite in real life), but I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm just presenting information the only way I can. It doesn't, nor did I say it did. But I do know that the Jewish faith is based largely on the OT of the Bible. How do I know? Because it was written by Jews.
Like all religions, you can't base the teachings on what you're told by the followers of such faiths (which is unfortunate). That's true, but it doesn't just stop there. For example, let's say I kill a dog. Sounds pretty mean a cruel. Now let me explain the reasons why: I killed a dog because it was rabid, had attacked some children, and was going after some others. That addition of detail completely changes the way you'd feel about it, right?
Hopefully, you can see that same thing with Jesus. "If you don't believe in Jesus, you go to hell." Yet with the addition of detail, the meaning will change to you. And you already know the detail. I know I don't represent Christianity very well (especially on the internet), so I'll just encourage you to explore & study it on your own before tossing it aside. I leave you with these:
John 3:16 (probably well known) - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:17 (probably lesser known) - "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (NIV)

Actually, they were still Jews (called "Messianic Jews"). A member of the band I'm in is a Messianic Jew. That whole post was just... great. The above phrase describes me pretty well, but I just don't know how to get beyond that part. It's difficult.

------------------
"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited March 12, 2004).]

A Messianic Jew is an apostate Jew. A Jew who believes in Jesus is a Christian. The only group who believe otherwise are the Messianic Jews.

------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Dictionary.com 'Nuff said.

------------------
"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."
- Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited March 12, 2004).]

Dictionary.com



'Nuff said.

------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.