I always get sentimental when I sit home alone for 4 hours straight, so I decide: hey let's post something. Something GOOD.

Let's post something about GOD...

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ONE RULE(so ****ing important): out of RESPECT for the admins and mods around here we keep it clean.

So... NO personal assaults!
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While reading through evolution theories and basic genetics I started thinking about religion and why lots of people seem to think there is a god.

Objectively... WHAT is there that gives us an indication of God?

Is it the apparent perfection of nature? Is it near-death experiences? Visions? ...?

For me, the concept of God is pretty clear. Guys, I SOLVED the problem!!

Hundreds of thousands(?) of years ago, our limbic system spawned our neocortex, and we gained the gift of COGNITION. We gained the ability to think rationally and in abstracts.

For the human species, this situation became UNBEARABLE. With only our reptile and limbic brain, we instinctually accepted death. But our rational minds couldn't do this...

How can we, as living creatures; accept death?

Obviously, we can NOT do this(even 2004 AD). We came up with an escape route out of this INSANE BURDEN.

We invented God.

And for me, it's strange. We put everyday life in formula and ratio, yet there are guys RIGHT NOW in Oxford, or Yale, or Massachussets, ... who every day look the rationality of life right and the eye, and still say with conviction that they believe in God...

WTF?

Oh, man, I could go on for HOURS throwing anecdotes of Buddha and biological theories at you.

But just out of a healthy scientifical doubt... How do you believer-guys justify our faith in an idea which has slaughtered millions and millions worldwide?

Pros? Cons?

I've thought for ages that man invented God - I can't properly say exactly why - just that a few thousand years ago, people just couldn't get a handle on the world around them, as you say, couldn't perhaps cope with the thought of death, and came to rationalise it through religion, fatalism, and superstition.

I'm not disrespecting anyone who believes, by all means, have your faith, treasure it, use it to do good works - live a good life: it's just not for me - I like to feel I'm in charge of my own destiny (I know not all religions/branches of Christianity are into predestination, double predestination or whatever, I just know some are) - I feel that my life is a product of my parents, my environment, my choices.

(I think that's more eloquent than I thought I could manage, and hopefully doesn't disrespect anyones views!)

Happy debating!!

(Hope you didn't check the box for emails for replies - I nearly made that mistake when I started the "A debate on the existance of God" thread...mmm 600-odd replies!)

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

The fact that slaughters have been conducted in the name of religion is VERY irrelevant, as anyone who knows anything about those situations knows that they were done for political, not religious reasons, although the misinformed and the judgemental are more than happy to use that as an excuse rather than get the facts.

I guess for me, God is in the details. I can't walk you to a place, point, and say "There He is!" It's more personal than that.

I just find too many people say "If God is real, prove it!" It's ironic, because the opposite is how it works, believe in God, and then it will be proven. Not because anything has changed, but because suddenly you become aware of the little things God has been doing, whereas before you were just content to ignore it, or write it off as some often-occuring yet mathimatically-improbable thing such as "luck" or "coincidence".

Therefore, I do not need to justify my faith to you or anyone else. It's what I believe. All my faith calls me to do is to make sure the rest of you are as accurately informed about my faith as possible, not to force you to believe it or to prove that I am right. If you have all the facts, or refuse to hear them, and still don't believe - no skin off my butt. I did what I was called to do, and that is all that matters. From there, I just shake the dust off my shoes, and move on...

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

[q]I like to feel I'm in charge of my own destiny[/q]


And in a sense, you can say on the flip side that this is why people refuse to believe in God - everyone wants to be their own boss. Therefore, it does not sit well with some people to have something, no matter how caring and benevolent it is, that says "Let me be your boss." They prefer to plug their ears and go "la la la! I'm not listening! You really aren't there! la la la!"

That's my opinion anyway.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Because your post was so spectacularly inoffensive and good I feel compelled to agree! (Most debates don't have enough agreement, I'm just throwing some in early before it gets over my head)

Back in the days of the Crusades (for example) politics and religion were completely entwined - so yeah, that's a good point!

And the thing about proof - it's utter nonesense! "You prove it!" - "You disprove it!"

You have your faith and that's exactly what it comes down to - faith. I've got so much respect for those who have faith and are happy with that - I don't have it, but I don't go about questioning other people's - it's theirs!!




[EDIT: Just got your reply to my post]

Yeah, I can see why that's true - and I suppose I'm one of those people - but at least I'm not waiting for proof that will never come (at least to those who are alive, and if I'm wrong and God does exist).

Benevolent or not, it's my opinion, and I'm glad I came to it - as I'm sure most people are whichever path they choose, religious or not.

(You seem to have your head screwed on a lot better than a lot of Christians I've met at uni - it's great! )

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

[This message has been edited by Martyn (edited February 27, 2004).]

I think this sums Humanity up nicely.



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The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever.
-- Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, The Father of Rocketry

*waits to get buried under the mountains of evidence that disprove the existence of God..*

Believe it or not, i've met a lot of people who believe in God, and *gasp* actually are rational thinking intellectual people as well.. It most often seems to be presented more like: Strongathiest <--> Intellectual, when Strongathiest -> Intellectual would be more accurate, [and Human -> Intellectual would be better yet,] which of course gets disproven the moment you find any non-intellectual strong-athiest, and doesn't disprove that it is not a sufficient condition.

I need to be stop making posts right after waking up, we'll see if this one makes any sense.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

I just kicked all the political B.S. out of my faith. I didn't try to 'interpret' scripture; I just read it and kept in mind who it was written to. I think there is far too much stuff in the Bible that people screw up, simply because they act like the literal translation applies to them, rather than looking at the context of what is said and learning the intended lesson from it. The Bible is simple writing for the simple man. If you are trying to interpret it, you are only messing up the message. It is what it is, unapologetically. People need to stop trying to twist it to suit their own goals/ideals - that, and realize that just because someone has a doctorate in theology, or is a priest or pastor, does NOT make them experts. There is biblical backing that supports keeping your spiritual leaders in check, and not taking everything they say at face value.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Whether or not God is proven is irrelevant, at least in my head.

The concept of God is a being more powerful than, in control of, and exempt from the universe we live in. It would be impossible to prove God if we tried, He works outside our given boundaries of space, time, physics and the like.

I believe in God. I don't need a shred of evidence to make me believe in a God, because hey, it's a belief, not a scientific inquiry. People are free to believe whatever they want, even God himself endorses that right by letting us choose whether or not to believe in him. That said, I choose to believe in a God.

Whether or not there actually IS a God, that's a different story. I can only hope, but the Pope himself doesn't actually know for a fact that there is a God. He'll tell you all day long, "I know there's a God," but he's talking out of his *** , he hasn't been there.

As a sidenote, I don't believe any man on earth has the ability to bless, absolve, or condemn another life. Holy water is as good as tap water to me.

Back to the subject of God - I don't think of God as somebody to bail me out whenever I get in trouble. I don't think "Fix it, God!" At least, not most of the time.

I think of it more like real life is an ordeal God has set up for us - you have 100 years to figure something out. Finding out what 'something' is, is also part of the test.

When I think of God, I'm rarely thinking "save me," but usually thinking something like "Touche, old friend."

In summary, I justify my belief in God because my concept of God is so different from the standard belief. It's obvious that God does not just fix everything, or our world would be a lot different.

Here's something to ponder as I end my post: We're constantly asking ourselves and eachother if we know God exists or not, but why don't you ever hear anyone asking if God knows that we exist as individuals? What's saying God knows that I exist?

[This message has been edited by Checksum (edited February 27, 2004).]

Just thought of this, given the title mentions improbability, which relates to logic:


No God - Don't Believe = Nothing you can do.
No God - Believe = You were wrong, but what do you care? You're dead.

God - Don't believe = Can you say Bar-B-Que?
God - Believe = Eternal life in a permanent state of pure happiness.


There, 4 given probabilities. If there is no God, you are unaffected post-death either way. What do you care? You are dead. Life is pointless regardless of how you live it. If there is a God, then it makes a huge difference in what you believe. If you do believe, then you are covered if there is or isn't a God. If you don't believe, well then you better hope there isn't a God, because if there is, it's roasting time. Thus, based on this, the choice with the most risk is to choose not to believe in God, because you suffer horrible consequences if you are wrong. But if you believe in God, and are wrong, you really suffer nothing, given that you just vanish from the earth into nothingness. Therefore, it is more logical to believe in God.

If you want to try to toss a can of worms into it, and open it up to the other major religions, all of them are christain-friendly, and while they may regard you as not being as good as they are, you still get some share in a positive afterlife (granted in hinduism and buddhism, this make take a few tries ), and yes, this is true in even islam and judaism. Thus, being Christian does not impact the happiness of the afterlife if any of these others are correct - just the degree to which you are happy. On the flip side, if these religions are wrong and the Christian one is right, then following any other faith than Christianity leads you to be a rice krispy treat if there is a Christian God. So even here, being Christian is still the safest bet.

Lol, not that I would ever tell anyone to be a Christian based on the above, lol...

Just wanted to point out the logic.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

What if God exists, but doesn't care whether the dead who come to him are believers or not, just whether they are good people or not?

Then in that case, the safe bet would be to be a good person!



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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

God - Don't believe = I may burn in hell, but I do so content that I've been able to accept that I didn't know wether or not god existed, rather than taking an irrational 'leap of faith'. If that's what it gets me, then so be it. Like I say to all christians who try to convert me; I'd rather burn in hell than be a christian - And I'll stick by that.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Wrong. Because if you were a believer, a real one anyway, you would also be a good person. But, if you were wrong, then being a good person who didn't believe wouldn't help you. Thus, christianity is still the more logical choice, because there is too much risk involved in no believing.



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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Here we go...
Hasty generalization. You cannot and will not hold all Christians responsible for something a particular group of so-called Christians did. There's a huge flaw in this logic: If God were invented for this reason, then we'd all be guaranteed a good afterlife, regardless of what we do. And my choice is to be a Christian. Why exactly? There's no logic in that whatsoever.

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"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited February 27, 2004).]

you can not tell me in all honesty that the human body with all it's complexities simply happened.
there is no way such an intricate system of tiny bits and pieces fell together in the right way.

the earth and all the creatures, plants etc inhabiting it are way to complex to not have been designed and something that was designed requires a designer.

we did not invent God.

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why is a raven like a writing desk?

And that's your right. Although it may be a cold comfort when writhing in eternal agony that you stubbornly stuck to those principles, if you are indeed incorrect.

But like I have said before, no skin off my back. You are entitled to believe what you want. Just as long as you don't harbor any misconceptions - that's all I concern myself with. And even then, I won't force you to listen to me if you don't want me to correct you on said misconceptions, should you have them...

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Have fun with that. O_o

Did we also invent love? hate?

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EvilMagic.net: Brian's Web Log

To be frank, love and hate are simply derived from chemical changes and electrical charges.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it

Ah, shower and shave - feel much better...



It's a shame: I know really hypocritical people who "believe" and have the capacity for such terrible behaviour - and like you say, that doesn't make them true believers. I'm talking about the sort of people who will quite happily judge you, simply because your aren't christian (and I'm sure there's a judge lest ye be judged thing they're missing). My ex-girlfried shared a house last year with three girls in the uni christian union, and they were so horrible to her - they didn't care when she was upset; they'd just ignore her. Obviously I'm not tarnishing loads of people with a giant brush, just these three girls...

Also (my english teacher would kill me if he saw that) I kind of find it hard to believe that a just god would condemn good people to eternal damnation because of a choice they made.

Like I said, these are just my opinions and I'd never try to belittle yours.

By the time I get back from my friend's birthday party I bet this will've spiralled out of control, but what's been said up to now's been good.

Laters

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

You can't be sure that that isn't a 'chicken or the egg' argument.

Is love and hate simply derived from chemical changes and electrical charges, or are the chemical changes and electrical charges the byproduct of love and hate?

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Here we go... I'm about to go clubbing, and usually I listen to very shallow music, etc... Hey, maybe something superdeep might work too.



I actually said 'believers' and not 'Christians'.



Sorry man, but I don't get it.



Holy **** ... I advise you to be CAREFUL in living your life in fear for an, in all probability, absent afterlife.



YES! I was actually hoping for that argument, given that it's probably one of the top three.

My answer is: do you believe in evolution?

Fair enough. Just don't let any person or group's actions keep you from finding out the truth of a religion.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Tenshu: hehe, it's rude to answer a question witha question!

Oh, and Fear, I won't - folk like you who know what's what have much more sway on my opinions than people who try to force a religion down my throat that they can't even adhere to day to day!

/Really going now

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Well, the way I see it, if god is all good and powerful as he's supposed to be, then he'll see my logic. If he doesn't, then I wouldn't want to spend ethernity with him in the first place.

And also, I have this theory that satan is actually the good guy and god is the one trying to lure your soul away from salvation. It would make just about as much sense. if you assume that god is so, then how can you trust anything mentioned in the bible, knowing it to be his word? God would simply have twisted the events to his favor. So why should I worship him over satan? Just cause everyone else does? And of course, that's assuming god really does exist, which I don't even believe in the first place.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Well, based on evolutionary theories, the egg came first, laid by something very chicken-like, but not quite.

And if you believe in God, it doesn't make you a good person. If you don't believe in God, on the other hand, it doesn't mean you are a bad person.

Plus, the whole concept of going to Hell if you don't believe in God seems like cheap propaganda because people are incredibly selfish.

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The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever.
-- Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, The Father of Rocketry

Burn in what? "Hell" was invented by priests, and added to the Bible as a way to say "Hey, you, believe or burn" to all the people who don't believe in that funny man in the sky.

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Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

I am neutral toward every religion, as long as the religion isn't some evil cult (I can't really think of any "evil cults" off the top of my head, though...). So, looking from a neutral point of view, I see this logic instead (I'm assuming the religion in question is a monotheism such as Christianity):

No God - Don't Believe = You've got the truth. No afterlife, but hopefully you spent your life well.
No God - Believe = You were wrong. No afterlife, but hopefully your beliefs led you toward the morally correct decisions in life.

Yes God - Non-believer = Thing's don't look very good. Depending on how things are, either limbo or barbecue.
Yes God - Believer = I would suppose that only true believers would get "good" rewards, so some "believers" wouldn't qualify. Non-qualifiers would probably include Adolf Hitler, Geroge W. Bush, and Osama Bin Laden.
Yes God - Wrong believer = Worse then all of the above.

Given the odds of any particullar religion being right (there are easily thousands of religions in existence), you have a chance of going wrong any direction you choose. No single religion even holds a simple majority of the world's population; Christianity may be first-place, but is only has 2.1 out of 6.3 billion people, a mere third of the population, and Islam is a close second with nearly two billion, and there are many other beliefs (Including Atheism) that have more than a hundred million.

Personally, I think building one's life to get the best afterlife is actually more than a bit on the selfish side. I think one should do what's right simply because it is right. Secular ethics has shown that morals are independent with religion, although any serious religion has morals packaged with it.

As for the Bible, I would agree with what you've said. Presuming that there is the one, aptly-named "God", I don't think that everything in that book should be taken at full face value. If such a work was devinely inspired, there's literally no possibility that it is, in its entirety, His work. The idea of sending down a single book is ludicrous. If the pieces were inspirations, I don't think that even a whole group's worth of minds would be able to withstand such immense truth and power enough just to get all of Genesis. As a result, the inspiration would have probably come in a bunch of messages and lessons, and it was up to the monks to write it down for the rest of Earth's mortals. As a result, the Bible seems to be very conext-specific, and people trying to interpet the whole thing, instead of the underlying messages, come to impropper conclusions. I think this might be the case the church has against homosexuality, as all of the homosexual realtions over 2000 years ago could definitely be considered wrong, without taking the fact that they were homosexual into account.

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

Let me take a crack at this, from the Christian standpoint.

The Christain God is just, pure, and holy to perfection. This means, by his very nature, he cannot tolerate anything unholy in his presence. When a human sins (sin as defined doing something against the will of God), that immediately taints the human, and renders them unfit to be in God's presence. That means Christains and non alike start off bound for hell. To combat this in the days of Judaism, blood sacrifices from animals were done as atonement for those sins. However, the sacrifices would be ongoing, because no animal was 'perfect' enough to permanently remove those sins. Now, God made us, loves us, but He can't by nature be around us. Maybe it makes him sick to no end, or maybe by having sin on us and being exposed to God we would be annihilated by his presence. No idea, but there is a reason that we cannot be before God with sin. In pre-Jesus times, the deceased would go to Sheol (think Hades for jews, only without the torture stuff) - point being, even after the sacrifices, they still were not with God, except for a select few.

So, God has a problem. He made us. He loves us. And the big guy wants to be loved in return, but for who he is, not what he can do for us - just like those of us who have not been traumatically affected in some way also long for that very thing. But, we can't be in God's presence. So, God comes up with a solution - the perfect blood sacrifice to end all sacrifices - Jesus. He goes to the cross as the only blameless and sinless man, and dies there for humanity. Ah, but here is the catch - it's a gift. Therefore, one needs to accept the gift to use it. You can't use something you haven't unwrapped and taken out of the box now, can you? So that takes care of the major issues - the gift is that your sins died with Jesus if you believe he died for your sins. That, and any residual sin you have on your body stays with your body upon death, and your clean spirit can ascend to heaven to be with God. But, by not accepting Jesus, you didn't take the gift, and thus the stain of your sin not only stays with your body, but with your soul as well. The point of differentiation is this - the payment for sin is death, and we all die. BUT, unless you accept Jesus, the sin taints the soul too, leading to eternal seperation from God.

In that sense, God went the extra mile and put the gift out there for anyone to take. But, because it is a gift, it is the people who take it that show they really love him for him. Satisfies both requirements. People fail to realize that we are images of God, and as such, he is us, only more perfect, appropriate and amplified. Our greatest emotional desire overall is to be loved, and the same with God. He just needed to find out the trick to reconcile that with his perfect, pure nature. The answer, was Jesus.

That is the Christain standpoint anyway, on why God condemns good people - everyone is condemned from the get-go. It's only by Jesus that we aren't.

Hope that clears up the christain viewpoint.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

He's out there. Sure, you can't see him or anything neat like that, he doesn't want to give you clear and incontrovertible signs of himself, but he is, and if you don't believe that, you will burn in the eternal flames of Hell!

Also, the human mind just cannot comprehend Him! is great. If I were a god and wanted people to believe in me, I'd at least make sure they comprehend me first!

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Or then not. --FastGamerr/Nikumubeki

The problem with your analysis is that you base your answers on personal opinion, not logic. Therefore there is nothing logical about your argument. Everything about mine is "what if" and examined the possibilities, and determined the safest course of action based on the least risk. For you to state something as "this is right" or "this is wrong" means you have essentially added nothing but fluff, and just rambled on to prove your opinion.

So I kindly ask you sir - either state your opinions as such, or keep them to yourself. Stop trying to pass off your opinion as logic

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

[This message has been edited by -Fear- (edited February 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by -Fear- (edited February 27, 2004).]

Have any of you ever taken a Philosophy class? I'm currently in a university level Philosophy class, and I have to say, basing God's existence on something as intangible as 'faith' is very bad form. If that were your strict and only reason for believeing in God, then anyone who believed in anything ridiculous and ludicrous could pronounce their belief by saying they have 'faith' in that form.

To give an example, if I were to say that I believe in the Easter Bunny, a rabbit that lays chocolate eggs for children only, and you were to say, "that's ludicrous!" by your own terms I could erect an indestructable bulwark around my belief by saying I have 'faith' in the Easter Bunny.

Please, give the works of Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, and even Hume (to take a look at the opposite side of the argument, throw in some Immanuel Kant as well) a read before you even attempt to have this argument.

David Hume was cited by Darwin as one of his major influences.

Sorry, but my personal belief is that Philosophy is good for nothing more than a starting point.

Philosophy, by its very nature, is self contradictory. For every person saying one thing, there is someone saying the polar opposite, and in philosophy, both are allowed to be right! Interesting, but hardly practical. Therefore, to bring philosophy into an argument or debate is pointless. Philosophy is great for beginning an idea, but the moment you apply practical use to it, it ceases to be philosophical. Thus, Philosophy to me is nothing more than exercise for the brain - you can use it to expand your horizions, but it isn't the answer to anything.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

By the way, -Fear-, logic and faith contradict eachother by their definitions. I especially urge you to read up on some of the major proofs for the existence of God.

faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

Are you trying to live in a dictatorship? I believe this is a debate, and you just told me Philosophy is no good to use in a debate because it has certain positions with oppositions?

You clearly have no understanding of contradictory terms, cease using them.

Sir, I apologize if, because the logic was secular, you believe that it was opinion. To state the whole list of possiblities would have made a post larger than all of the rest of this thread put together. Because of this, I shortened it by excluding most possibilities, by assuming that all religions are similar to Christianity. I apologize if you were either offended by the possibility presented that incorrect non-believers might only go to Limbo, or my comment that Adolf Hitler and George W. Bush don't qualify as "true Christians" and Osama bin Laden doesn't qualify as a "true Muslim".

The first paragraph was stating my position, so that people know. The last is simply facts, regardless of how relevant one may see them as. For the rest, I try to shorten my arguement by basing on the assumptions/beliefs of the opposite side, so I don't have to type a post 2000+ words long.

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

How do you know that the dictionary was not written by an athiest, and therefore is biased?

Not saying it is or it isn't, but how do you know?




And I find all sorts of things about God to be perfectly logical.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Really, I can't make a reply to this, you've already done it more perfectly than I could have. I haven't even read that entire reply and I already see you contradicting yourself within the same post, let alone previous ones.

...it's impossible, once again by your own words it boils down to faith in God to explain his existence, therefore it is impossible to draw any logical meaning from Him, as having faith requires you to believe in something illogical.

If something logical gives credence to God's existence, I'd like to hear it because then nobody could doubt His existence.

I think you could definitely benefit from a college-level philosophy class. Philosophy doesn't allow two polar opposite sides to be both right. It does, however, show that either:

A. The sides are not mutually exclusive, thus both can be right, because they are not opposing sides, or

B. We can't really know the truth yet, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Try taking a philosophy class. Asuming you're willing, you'll learn a great deal, and probably mature a bit (although "mature" might be the wrong word here, as most people see "maturity" as competence, not intellectuality/spirituality)

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.