This thread makes my head hurt.

Then stop clicking on it! Stop coming into religious threads and saying "i don't like looking at religious threads!"

------------------
WOOSH.
-----@%

You're right, Run.

As for the second part. I know that things have changed now with greater understanding of science and such, but at the deepest, most basic element of the two, the purpose of each is exactly the same. You also have to take into consideration that all the religious explantions were created thousands of years ago and people at those times explained things as best they understood as well, given the time period.

------------------
I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

While I agree that a religious explanation was valid at the time, theres no need to hold to those explanations today. I'll admit right now that I can hardly be objective about this since I research and teach in a science field (and am therefore a little biased), but I do find it interesting/strange that people still subscribe to divine interventions as a basis for physical events.

The absence of need for a deity in our existence or physical lives doesn't disprove the existance of said deity, so it always seems strange when people cling to creation theories (for example). Evolution doesn't disprove god(s) existence, and I say that as a confirmed atheist and scientist. IMO If there is a god(s) then their influence is limited to "spiritual matters" and not physical ones

I think I'll stop here, I dont want to start a creation debate, plus its home time now.


[This message has been edited by Run (edited March 01, 2004).]

Yeah, I think that people that still believe the bible is a litera, exact documentation are a little nutty. There are a lot of people these days who are relgious but believe in the sciences as well

------------------
I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

I brought this argument in earlier, but I don't think anybody picked it up, or even bothered to look at it. Just plain ignored it.

What's to say that we Christians are following the wrong God. Hypothetically. Can you appease us and just accept that this is a possibility? Most of you are just being so stubborn and not even being open to the thought that maybe there is no God, or maybe you're following the wrong one. I'm quite open to the belief that there is a God, but I'm not getting much openness from the 'beleiver' side.

I'm just not ready to quickly place everything I don't understand under the 'God made it, so it's too complex for me' category. Just because things are complex or improbable doesn't make them impossible or mystic. This is a weak argument to use. Every year we ake more and more scientific breakthroughs and learn more and more about the world around us. Long ago, if people were to see an airplane fly, they would assume that a metal beast flying could only be accomplish with God's help. Nothing else could explain it. Does this mean it's true?



------------------
Clarinetists, unite!

-writer of Bloodwing: Fallen Soldier
(no site up yet...)

Well, that was rude.

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

BobTheMasher: wait, where did I say I disliked looking at it? I actually find it funny to see the subject of origin--worn by millennia of discussion--be brought back into an undying cycle, when in all likelihood we'll never know the truth. I guess it makes some people feel good, though.

And yeah.. I said it hurts my head because I've seen *tons* of similar threads pop up and die over the years on this forum. Makes me wonder if I've really been here that long, or if we're just uncommonly wont to hold these kinda threads.

[This message has been edited by moneyobie (edited March 02, 2004).]

He was fighting fire with fire...

------------------
WARNING: THIS POST MAY CONTAIN TRACES OF PEANUT!!!
---@%

[This message has been edited by TheJkWhoSaysNi (edited March 02, 2004).]

Yes, which makes him no better than the person he was fighting with. Sorry, it's one thing to be a blabbering rude goof. It's a whole 'nother ball of wax to be smug about it.

Just something about a smug attitude that rubs me the wrong way.

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

I agree. I probably wouldn't be a Christian now if i hadn't been brought up as one. However i think that later in my life i would have become one.

I think maybe I feel like Christianity is right is the fact that my mum is a Christian without being brought up as one. She became a Christian and because of her intimate belief and relationship with Jesus, I tend towards believing that. Mostly its just based on feelings.


------------------


Sweet irony...

I just dont believe that all life came to be from some bubble and lightening, or any other "cosmical incident" ... I believe everything has to be created somewhere, somehow. A Computer didnt just build itself out of nothing, pure empty space cant become matter. Everything has to be made just like we make things with what we have.

------------------
"Ahhhh!! I'm Burnin'! I'm Burnin!!!" - Cleaner from Max Payne 2

Why doesn't the creator then need someone to create him?

------------------
"Music is the universal language and the
dialect we speak in is Hip Hop!" - King Solomon

Well, from a logical sense, everything has to start somewhere. Therefore, if God was created, then he just becomes a part of a chain where there is an even bigger Creator somewhere. The point is, the buck has to stop somewhere - an orgin point needs to be defined.

So, that said, it isn't that hard to believe that there isn't some eternal, sentient, grand designer out there.

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

What if there was someone that created him? What if God's the one on trial, along with many other gods, in front of an even bigger god, and they are supposed to prove themselves worthy of being gods...then what if that bigger god is only another smaller god and...

------------------
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Run:

While I agree that a religious explanation was valid at the time, theres no need to hold to those explanations today. I'll admit right now that I can hardly be objective about this since I research and teach in a science field (and am therefore a little biased), but I do find it interesting/strange that people still subscribe to divine interventions as a basis for physical events.</font>[/quote]Agreed. I, for one, don't believe in God simply as a need to explain events. That's what science is for. Saying something like "God did it" is a broad statement, left with a large variety of methods God could've used to accomplish a certain task.

------------------
"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

About the origin of everything: if you take a big enough frame, there is no such thing as time(there isn't even NEWTONIAN LAW).

lol, that's my point. The buck has to stop somewhere.



------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

And, if there was one god, more than likely there would be another one.

------------------
WARNING: THIS POST MAY CONTAIN TRACES OF PEANUT!!!
---@%

Infinite causal regress.

------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

How do you figure?

Initially there's no reason for more than one god to exist, what need would there be for two or more, when one would seem to be perfectly capable of the whole omnipotence thing. Beyond that, it becomes increasingly improbable the more of them that exist. Though i realise that you could just as easily say that you could decrease the need and improbability by just removing any god from the picture.

------------------
[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

By what rationale? I would say a converging point of origin would be pretty unique...

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

I said that because you don't get just one of something. If one exists, why not another? Another can come from the same place the first came from.



------------------
WARNING: THIS POST MAY CONTAIN TRACES OF PEANUT!!!
---@%

definitely possible.

I guess though, what constitutes 'God' to us? and who's to say, with angels and demons and such, that 'God' isn't the top dog in the battle for supremacy?

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

About the whole no-need-for-another-god-argument...

can you tell why the universe would need mankind ? yet we are here..

and can you tell me what need there is nowadays for an "omnipotent" god, cause he doesn't seem to do much with his capabilities.

on a personal note : isn't it much more satisfactory to know your achievements have been accomplished by yourself instead of believing they were achieved with the help of a higher-being.

personal remark #2, i have this questions for you christians... am i wrong in my assumption that god sent jezus to save the jewish people? if so, in the whole afterlife-debate, where do the jews fit in the picture, do they also go to heaven ? despite of their radical differences...

No, it's more selfish. And the opposite is called humility; an attribute of Jesus.

------------------
Have a good one,
Freelancer

Feel the power of the lock.....coming to a thread near you!

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Now why did you go and do something silly like bring this up again?

------------------
WARNING: THIS POST MAY CONTAIN TRACES OF PEANUT!!!
---@%

Silence! And respect the koze!

Actually, I would prefer the thread locked. Necroposting shouldn't be allowed...

------------------
--------------------------------------
Fear is here, where's the beer?

allow me to use a metaphor.

your six-year old child learns to ride a bicycle. at first you help the child by giving it confidence and holding the bike steady...(like many people feel god is giving them hope,strenght,etc.) but isn't every parent proud when he sees his child riding all by it's own.

it's like passing for a test because you studied hard. should i than assume, it was with the help of god ?

i don't understand how god wants me to believe in him, if i personally have never felt any indication of his presence, would he expect me to accept something i have heard from believers but don't believe personally? how can i help it that my mind excludes the possibilty of a higher being ?
am i going to hell for what i believe ?

what if i accidently was born in asia or africa where it's more likly that i would be brought up according to a other religion. how can i help the fact i wasn't born in europe or US ?

personal remark #1** ) why has god created mankind if he never will give a concrete indication of his presence, sounds to me like sadistic expermiment... why would he create mankind if he knew there was evil? why would he than let horrible things like war or genocide happen. i know this will get the "believe goes with suffering" argument (or so we learn at my catholic school) i mean it's like having a child when you know you cannot give it a good education, enough food, etc.

Ick!

Good to be back, if not for long... 'Sup Fear?



------------------
If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

But he puts the "romancer" in "necromancer"...

------------------
http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

look this arguement was won on the 1st page.

But arguing and fighting is good...

Its what seperates us from the animals...

Oh wait

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

"Do not revive old threads on the Discussion or Showcase Forum. Old threads are basically anything older than 3 weeks."

It's not against the rules...just

------------------
Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Sure, and without continued guidance, the child will ride the bike into oncomming traffic. You can help it. You have complete control over your own mind. If you didn't, you'd be in an asylum, right? Because how many of us would choose God out of fear if we knew for certain He existed? You can't love if you're in fear. There wasn't evil. There was only the concept of evil. Man, by comitting evil, made the concept a reality. Man vs. man, not man vs. God.

------------------
"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."
- Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

It human nature to try to understand our own beginnings. Thousands of years ago, God, gods, and higher beings were the best the human mind could come up with and understand. That said, old habits are hard to break. Human civilization has evolved with religion, so people tend to hold onto it because it's always been there.

------------------
I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

I hate to quote/reply to every line, so I'll just reply in a block. I couldn't resist this, though. Wow.



I will believe that God exists should I come to that point. However, I don't see anything in this world to suggest to me that this could happen. In fact, it seems downright implausible. I don't know why you felt the need to put in that preachy-sounding line about Jesus though. You could have simpyl said 'jesus' instead of all of the other 'nicknames' associated with him.

I don't get where you're going with the 'everything is right as long as you feel it's right' line...

Religion is dying in Western culture, this is very true. Many of us are simply questioning our faith a bit more, rather than just following blindly. We no longer live in a culture that has to rely on myths to explain things. We look for answers in science.

The faith argument is never going to really stand up against any of the 'aethist' points, basically because it doesn't really say anything. And I think you probably just missed the original link to the 'other religion' thing. The main point as I recall it is that there are many other world religions, what's to say that you aren't following a fake God. Obviously some of them have to be fake, since according to Christianity there can only be one true God. So if some people madfe up Gods, why do we believe that Jehovah is suddenly immune to this possibility?

I have yet to see any retort to that comment that makes any sense. Obviously not all religions can be correct, because they contradict each other.


------------------
Clarinetists, unite!

-writer of Bloodwing: Fallen Soldier
(no site up yet...)

And obviously one can't be both religious and scientific..

------------------
[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');