By this statement, I now know that your anti-christian bias allowed you to misread my post, or rather, read into it what you wanted to.

I never claimed that the other world religions were similar to christianity - in fact, a lot of them are quite different.

But are you aware that in hinduism, they are called to respect other religions, and that being a part of another religion does not exclude you from the benefits of a hindu afterlife? And the same goes for buddhism, which sprouted from hinduism?

And do you not know that in the muslim faith, christians are to be regarded as also part of God's holy people and brothers to the muslim's as noted in the Qu' ran? Or that in Judaism, a non jew is only called to obey the 10 commandments in order to fulfil the requirements of God?

For someone who claims to know about other religions, your information is severly lacking...

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

[This message has been edited by -Fear- (edited February 27, 2004).]

I also think -Fear- would be able to come up with some decent arguments if he understood the terminology of what he is opposed to.

Philosophy is:
Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

And there is where you err. I am a college graduate, with numerous religious, psychological, and philosophical classes under my belt. You could say the human condition was my minor.

And after all that, I made my opinion on philosophy, and also stated it as such. Its my opinion after having taken said classes, and looked at precisely what you said. And what I said is what ultimately rang true to me. Its nice for a beginning idea, but to try to pass philosophy off as something more than deep brainstorming gives it too much importance, imho.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Sorry, but you simply stating I contradict myself without examples is nothing more than grandstanding. If you have proof, out with it. Otherwise, you only make yourself look foolish.



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Fear is here, where's the beer?

I'm sorry, -Fear-, I can't believe you. I think you're lying right now, unless you graduated some hundreds of years ago. If you took the 'said' classes then you would stop contradicting yourself in every post. I'm not talking subtle contradictions, these are blatant contradictions. At one point you're saying the sky is blue, the next red and it can't be blue... please, either re-think your posts, re-take your classes, or drop out of this argument.

I'll try citing your contradictions, -Fear-, but I really don't feel like quoting your book-long posts and highlighting the details for you, it would take a very long time... I'll give it a try, though.

OK, this is from your first post, here you talk about faith (which is based on an illogical assertion of your beliefs to a being of higher order, by definition it is ILLOGICAL), later, numerous times, I won't cite the examples, you talk about how people should think or compose their replies LOGICALLY, as you had, which is contradictory since the basis of your belief in God is illogical, since faith is the only reason you gave, apart from OPINION, which you also deemed unusable as a basis of argument to other people.

Please, all your essays are a circular argument. I'd give you a 1/10 for vocabulary.


[This message has been edited by xXxsa`tHc (edited February 27, 2004).]

When did I precisely say that it boils down to faith, and where by that did I say that because it's faith, logic no longer applies? I take issue with the dictionary definition.

Here is an example. People seem to have an easier time in believing in "luck" or "chance".

Bumping into someone who you haven't seen in 10 years. A guy with a tow truck stops by when your car breaks down, you are a nickel short for an important phone call and there just happens to be a nickel on the floor or in the change thingie.

So, for the logic, I will reflect this back on you. Why are you willing to believe in something (luck or chance) that, despite the fact that it happens all the time, has the mathimatical probability of happening less than an asteroid hitting the earth, or winning the lottery?

And if you do not believe in luck, then how do this statistical oddities continue to occur within the confines of humanity on an almost daily basis?



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Fear is here, where's the beer?

I merely used the assumption that most religions are similar to Chrisitanity for the sake of the argument. Depending on the religion, the logic would place it into either "No God" or "Yes God", and you'd be able to aply the aftelife effects more or less similarly, substituting the correct things.


Apparently, many do not see that way. I do know that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are very much alike, and could be counted as one group. However, by what is perhaps the majority of the believers of those religions, those who don't believe their specific version are condemned, thus creating even more possiblities, in both what the truth might be, and whether you've got the truth.

Do you actually remember the Ten Commandments? Following them, and not worshiping God are mutually exclusive:

http://www.themiracleofstjoseph.org/tencmds2.htm

While Commandments 4-10 are applicable to all (as they really aren't truly religious morals, "merely" secular morals presented religiously), 2 is a bit more religious, and 1 and 3 exclude the possibility of not being Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, or any other monotheist.

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

[This message has been edited by nottheking (edited February 27, 2004).]

There is no contradiction - just your miscomprehension. I am not telling you to believe or not to - not my job. I said that it is personal. Something can be personal and also logical.

Finally, where the breakdown seems to be, aside from you coming into this reading my posts with your own thoughts already set on the subject, rather than reading what I really wrote, is that you still seem hung up on the dictionary term that king gave, whereas I already said that I take exception to it and find it wholly inaccurate.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

It's possible to believe or follow all the commandments and not be Christain, Muslim or Jewish.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

So you're telling me that if these things happen to me, they're miracles? He he he.

Yeah, I was pitching a fat loaf this morning, and there was no toilet paper! LUCKILY, BY DIVINE INTERVENTION, God sent someone (as opposed to someone just happened to walk into the same public bathroom) to help me in my time of great peril! This savior came to me, and I called out to He, "thank you o' lord, for the white tissue!", and He did smile upon the sheep, and the trees, and the people did eat many forests!

Taking them all as they are, how could it be possible, without contradicting one's own non-monotheist beliefs?

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

No, -Fear-, I'm afraid not. I read your post the way you wrote it, and it stated your opinion on faith and whatnot, and that's the reason you gave to God's existence. When someone tried to give an argument, you told them not to use opinions and to use logic. Even if I slash out my logic argument alltogether, you still contradict yourself about many things. Maybe I'll take a simple example.

I christen this the New Religious Forum, it shall grow in size and suck all into its midst.

*throws small orange dragon and several asphyxiated clowns into the melee*

You have been assuming a lot of things, which is why you still have yet to correctly read in context what I am saying.



The people may not see it that way, but I look at the scripture itself, and what it intended. I stand by what the Qu'ran said.



You apparently do not know much about the jewish faith as a whole, such as the Talmud.

When you can begin to be more informed on your subject matter, and stop interjecting your opinions as fact, then we can talk. Until then, I fail to see how this debate furthers anything.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Ah, here's the bread winner. There, read that and re-think everything you're saying.

Pretty much you just said you can't pass off opinion as logic, and logic is what matters, even though your own opinion was your basis for the existence of your God.

Your posts are riddled with this, I won't believe you didn't notice.

Yes, but I only brought up the logic of the various paths one could take. This was not a "only christians follow these!" thread, but it seems that is what king and xXx want to drag it down to.

What I laugh at is the fact that they accuse me of using circular logic while they themselves can't even read what I wrote in the context I intended. I wrote it; I should know how I intended it. And yet they essentially insist that they know what I meant better than I do.

It's pointless to argue with such people - they will see only what they want to any way.

Sorry to the rest of you. I did not intend this to become such as it is. I am done with this one.


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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Oh, and I'm not saying I do not believe in God, I'm just saying you're the worst possible person to be participating in any religious debate, -Fear-, you won't allow yourself to be second-guessed, therefore you can't even see the opposition. This is why I am asking you not to post in this thread, it's ridiculous reading everything you say.

Heh, and I already said I would toss the logic portion out of the window, and you still contradict yourself.

Thanks for finally stepping down, though!

I do not consider myself religious and do not believe in God, but there is always part of me that sort of wants to. I can't explain it. I guess because the concept of God is so universal and ground into everyone's head, that even if I don't believe in it, it is there. However, I believe that the comic above can sum up how religion and belief in a god happened. Ancient people needed something to explain life's mysteries, so some unexplainable force would be the perfect way.

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Kids must be shot by Monday.

Honesty tests for workers can't be trusted, report says.

Psychopaths are unpredictable.

Jay Leno's Headlines > Everything

Same principle applies, regardless of semantics. Unless I misunderstood your post, you implied that humans invented the concept of God to make it seem better. If that were true, then how does the idea of hell make it seem true? Hell isn't a good place. PLEASE! Nobody fall for this. Science and religion to not have to oppose each other, especially when it comes to creation & evolution. Where does evolution say the Bible is wrong? Inversely, where does the Bible say evolution did not occur? That doesn't make sense. Just because God sees your logic doesn't mean he's thinking "Hey, Flexor's right." Satan's not even organized enough to produce a book of his teachings. I don't think your argument stands too firmly. That's one of things people don't understand about Christianity. It's not about punishment. It's about a relationship. If you don't want to be with God, the relationship cannot exist, and it is ensured that you remain away from God. The opposite is true. If in your life you express desire to be with God, then you will be. I'm not using an analogy. That's the way it really is.
Have you ever seen people on TV worshipping God? (Probably everyone has.) Are their faces expressionless, or do they seem to be in some kind of deep level of emotional concentration. If we believed on for personal gain, wouldn't our faces in worship be blank, without emotion? Monks? So would it also be bad form for me (for example) to put faith in a woman I love without proof that she's faithful? And if so, what possible proof can be provided that said person is faithful? I could only reach the conlusion that she's faithful if I was with her until death. Only then could my presumption be proven true or false. I hope you see what I'm saying. So tell me... what's the connection between his belief in God and someone structuring their replies logically? And your posts are riddled with a never-ending trail of strawman fallacies. It's amazing... really. You know little about the religion(s) of which you speak.

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"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

Then what about good and evil, Wolfy?

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"A film is - or should be - more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what's behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later."--Stanley Kubrick

Hmm.. I'm a Catholic, but i have my own opinions for alot of things (i.e. I believe gyas should have the right of marriage, and not just civil union, but i'll stop there. dont want to be accused of a thread hyjack) and so i think i'll give them here, sicne they are a bit different then most i've seen posted so far.



That is an excellent outlook, and one i think everyone should take, if that were possible. It is not one's place to stuff one's beliefs down anouther's throat. Christians are given the job of spreading the good news, and a few other religions have the same sort of thing, but that dows not give us license to assault someone with our beliefs in some sort of innane attempt to convert them. that just leads to you being annoying and generally unwanted (that's the problem with many 'missionary' sects of Christianity. they just dont see that people dont want to be assaulted with soemthing they dont want to believe). The most one can do is show anouther the aspects of thier religion, and leave it at that. let the other pesron make up for themselves what the truth is.



IT is very ture that humanity has a habit of holding belifs in things that are extreamly improbable. but look where that got us? Do you think Louis Pastuer had much more then a hunch that his theories were correct when he first started? IT was generally accepted as absolute truth that disease was caused by supernatural forces. What about Galileo or his inspiration (the astronomer, greek i think, name starts with a C. first theorized that earth was not center of the universe)? They were both persecuted for holding beliefs with little backing. Or, for a more recent example, the first person to discover superconducters? it is almost impossible through physics that energy can travel without any loss of energy, and yet it has since been proven. Yes, humanity has a habit of holding improbabl;y hopes, but humanity also has a habit of proving the impossible.



Yep, yep, yep. While you say you dont 'interpret' scripture, that is waht you are doing by looking at the context. Jesus (and just about every otehr prophet), made thier messages to be seen as the message behind the words, not literally. We have to take those messages and apply them to our lives today. This is why, In my opinion, many people believe science and religion cant mix. they dont see that scripture can change with the times, that it can be used to face other situations by simply changing the context that the message is in. the message stays the same.



well, i said i am a Christian, but i fins this to be absolutely dead wrong. I find thjis to be reminicent of Johnathan Edwards: Sinners in the Hands of an angry God. That sermon had serveral people collapsed and crying after it. God, IMO, is not about scaring the **** out of people. I dont think God judges us on wether we believe or not. I think if we follow the message, that we follow with God's plan, then he will let you into heaven. while saying "fitting with god's plan' sounds like you ahve to believe in him, its not. just simply following "love your nieghbor" requires no religious affiliation, and yet if it is followed, allows an incredibly better experience all around, and entrance into heaven.



that is hottly debated, do not present it as fact. Physical changes come about because of emotions, true, but we dont not yet have proof as to wether those create the stimulis for the changes or if they create the emotion.



anouther reason against Believe=heaven, no belief= hell argument. if that were true, alot of truly evil people would get into heaven, and a ton of people who follow all the rules of Jesus not becuase they belive, but because they feel it is the right thing to do, would go to hell. Hitler was a rather devout Christian, if i remember correctly. does that mean he went to heaven? hell no, and anyone who says otherwise deserves to be shot.



The most horrific events centered on religion were the crusades, where many thousands, perhaps millions of people were slaughtered for a place that rightfully belonged to Judaism (sp?). he was simply jumping to the conclution that you refered to that, since when someone brings up the horrors that are sometimes assossiated with religion, they normally start with them.



if God were invented in responce to a fear of death, why isn't there simply "everyone get s a good afterlife, end of story" religion that is dominant?



Please explain to me how a species that cant run fast, cant climb fast, are not very strong, and have most of our sences be far less sensative then those of an average predator managed to survive several million years to become the dominant species on the planet? I dont disbelieve evolution, in fact i believe in it fully. i just dont think it was the final word in our case.



And so you should. Hypocrits are to be reviled. they make any religion look bacd (i.e. those priests that raped the kids). i'm not saying i'm perfect, very, very far from it, but i'm refering to hpocrite here in the worst sence, those that go against the very core of thier religion and still say they are a part, for inane things like they go to church every week.



As do i. i believe God looks at what sort of person you are, not what religion you happen to adhere to.



/jaw drops. i'm sorry, but what exactly did you add to the conversation with that? iot may be your opinion, but i'm sure you could have thought of a better way to get it across.



/resists urge to punch king in the face. I find myself very tolerant of other's beliefs, but i am extreamly angered for you including Bush in that list. Nothing he has done can possibly compare to the what those other two did. /hangs head. i think i'm over wanting to puch you. now i pity you. i pity you for beliving that someone who is doing his best to help this country is on par with a person who got pretty far towards a goal of genocide.



Just because fait does not rest on logic does not mean that it contradicts logic. jsut that it does not use it as a base for it.

Hmm.. i've just finished writing this far and found that the thread just about doubled, so i'll leave it at this for now. i'll end with a description of Jesus from Douglas adams that i like alot (which is ironic, sicne he was an atheist, but whatever):

"just 2000 years before, a man was nailed to a tree for saying how good it would be if we were nice to each other all the time" (this may be a bit off, i haven't read it in awhile)

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW

Glad I was not the only one to see this. I just didn't feel it was appropriate to turn this thread into a flame war. Just wanted to express my relief.

*thumbs up*

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Bah, I can't get out of this blasted thread!!!!



And with you, I disagree. The Bible was written for simple people at a simple time, and the message is simple. By putting it in the context it was intended, I am not "interpreting" it, merely reading it. When people go looking for hidden meanings, that is where it crosses into dogmatic and power issues, and when it starts to cease being about belief. Now, I am not saying that you cannot deepen your understanding of a passage, but believe me - christianity would be in a much better state if they just took the whole Good Book at face value. God isn't trying to trick us or hide stuff from us, nor should we be so self-important to think that "we can see the hidden messages". By nature, all throughout the Bible, God is a straight shooter. I fail to see how we should take the written word as anything other than that.

But I doubt you and I will agree, so I will leave this here.



Reread what I said and get what I was trying to do. I, rather tongue in cheek, showed that it was more logical to believe in God than not, based on the possible outcomes. Had you been really reading what I wrote, you would have noticed where I said:



I understand the deeper implications, and this is not something I would ever use if someone asked about Christianity. Rather, it was a smart alec response to those who would say "Logically, there is no God, so I can live how I want". I was essentially attacking their argument with their own logic. Please, jumping to conclusions is a bad thing for a christian, or anyone to do.



Just had to give you props for my favorite Douglas Adams line.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

[This message has been edited by -Fear- (edited February 27, 2004).]

Why? Why do all these people insist on coming here to preach there views? You don't see Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or Taoists or Hinduists running in here preaching there word. Why not? BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FREAKS like that.

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I can't think of anything to put here right now.

I find it all too amusing that -Fear- is probably the only person in this thread who's trying to keep things civilized.

"Ha ha, I misinterpreted your post, so that must mean you're the worst Christian ever!"

Yeah, good logic (heh) there, xXx.

I've seen enough of this thread. And for the record, I stand by what -Fear- is trying to say. (You've been making all the right points and remained civil through this, keep up the good work.)

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Moo.

For some people, their faith is a part of who they are, and merely sharing information about themselves does not count as "shoving it down your throat".

Let me ask the opposite question:

Why, as soon as a person is exposed as a christian, do people who do not feel God exists, feel the need to verbally challenge, assault, or attack that person with the idea that THEY are the one's who is wrong?

I honestly see more of that, than Christians starting stuff, in the time I lurked here.



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Fear is here, where's the beer?

*Nods*

My thanks, friend.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Hmm.. i think i expressed myself incorrectly there. i was agreeing with your views. the only part that i disagreed with was that you said you didn't interpret. i think we simply have different definitons of that word.I totally agree with everything else in that paragraph.



well, i think i'll concede on that. i guess i didn't read your post very well.

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW

O_O Holy crap. The thread title is just screaming "FLAMEBAIT" but suprisingly, this thread has remained fairly civil and orderly. Wow, maybe taking out the Religious Forums was a good thing.

btw, I see we have newbies to the religious threads. Welcome and enjoy your stay in Hell.

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Checksum: I thought about it, I guess I'm striving for my own personal ideals. I'll just project those ideals onto Jesus and say "I'm trying to be like Jesus" so that I won't have to listen to you banter endlessly about me worshipping a false god or some such.

The Last True Evil: Ironically, that's very Christian of you.

Proof Of God

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Fear, It Controls The Fearful. The Strong. The Weak. The Innocent. Fear Is My Ally!

The Arcane Sith

The idea that priests invented hell has some merit. It seems to me that being alone with them in their offices is as close to hell on earth as you can get.

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EvilMagic.net: Brian's Web Log

I'm going to go with Cow on this and give the honor of keeping things civilized to -Fear-, even though a few people have tried, albiet inadvertantly, to turn this towards a flame war. unfortunatly, i must include myself in that list for not reading one of his posts well enough (see above).

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW

I'm not Athiest. And in my time, I've seen more psycho christian people than anyone else. I work with the public very closely, and I've had people literally FORCE my hand down and said "Pray with me" and would not let me go. I nearly knocked a lady out who did that, but knew I'd be terminated. The woman had closed her eyes and said that, and I raised my other hand and formed a fist when I stopped.

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I can't think of anything to put here right now.

Read the bible. Old and new testaments. That is why I believe in God.

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Member of the Minneassian Council

[This message has been edited by -Monoxide- (edited February 27, 2004).]

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Fear, It Controls The Fearful. The Strong. The Weak. The Innocent. Fear Is My Ally!

The Arcane Sith

[This message has been edited by Keith Marshall (edited February 27, 2004).]

Listen to this. He's right.

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-=I'm the wang of this here site, and it's HUGE! So just imagine how big I am.=-
1337Yectiwan
OSC Returns!!
10 of 14 -- 27 Lives On

Jews see it the same way.

Noble: I said it was civil, not that some people hadn't said some pretty belligerent stuff.

I'm an atheist for all intents and purposes, but i think if God existed, he would have created systems that would allow the world to grow and expand with the times and creatures could survive(like evolution). If he exists I don't think he is doing anything other than sitting back and watching his little glass globe, with the exception of a few incidents where his intervention was required. Basically, I just described deism. go look it up if you want.

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Checksum: I thought about it, I guess I'm striving for my own personal ideals. I'll just project those ideals onto Jesus and say "I'm trying to be like Jesus" so that I won't have to listen to you banter endlessly about me worshipping a false god or some such.

The Last True Evil: Ironically, that's very Christian of you.

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited February 27, 2004).]