Also i am now going to run out to my car to get my logic text. Because with all the talk about foo is logical and bar is not and such, i figure it is my obligation to point out the flaws in the osensibly air-tight God is evil if evil happens thing..

Basic problem is this: "Fallacy of false dilemma. Any dilemma in which a questionable ‘OR’ statement is used as a premise, i.e., where viable alternatives are overlooked."

In this case, the presumption that God being in complete control of everything and God giving us free will are mutually extant. That tends to fall under the God-Emperor of Dune philosophy, that absolute peace and absolute freedom are only possible in an absolute dictatorship [which i find to be fairly reasonable premise]. Thus if God does not maintain an absolute dictatorship, he is not [as the policeman example earlier] directly at fault or thus evil if he does not prevent all evil.

For those who are interested the logical sequence is thus [premise letters included in exposition for explanation]:







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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Only if I state that God's existance is fact, which I have not. Actually, Revelation 12:12 indicates that he's still allowed in heaven. It says "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (KJV)

I can't keep up with this thread any longer, so ... bye?

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"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited February 29, 2004).]

There are dinosaur bones found. With technology, we determined how old they were. If you took all the days mentioned in the Bible, and calculated them by 1000, you'd still not be at the age of those bones. Now how could they be here, if the world wasn't created then yet?

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Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

I wish i could find this site again, but it was talking about dating methods and how it wasn't unusual for recently buried cats or whatever to date as like 3million years old or something. It's windowing basically.



Many more such things here:
http://www.ooblick.com/text/evoquotes.html

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Actually, the passage says that "a day is like a thousand years" and vice versa, so if you went with a strictly literal interpretation, you'd really be multiplying by 365,250 or so. Since the Young Earth Creationists are sticking by their estimate of 8,000 years (I think), you'd end up with a more-than-adequate age of approximately 1,067,260,500,000 years. Not that the passage is even meant to be taken literally - but it certainly provides one with some perspective, no?

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

In response to Viper's earlier points, I'd like to emphasize that the early books of the Old Testament, particularly Genesis, are not necessarily "historical" in the strictest sense of the word. To paraphrase CS Lewis, they're true in the same way that "my mother loves me" is true, not in the way that "two plus two equals four" is true, and thus, any attempt to nitpick about the details of Genesis is fairly irrelevant.

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

Don't get me wrong Gothic, I'm not saying I believe that God suddenly put us here. I'm just throwing everything I think of into this debate, kinda playing both sides. I know it doesn't explain dinosaurs and all of that stuff, and according to the bible the earth is only ____thousand years old, whereas our dating finds come up with a calculation of 4.5 billion years. Too big a difference to be quickly counted on a calculation error.

But nevertehless, a creation time of -[see above]- years is a lot more reasonable that 7 days

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Clarinetists, unite!

-writer of Bloodwing: Fallen Soldier
(no site up yet...)

[This message has been edited by GeneralRamos (edited February 29, 2004).]

I think the bigger question here is why did it take God so friggin' long to make it? And why did he "rest" afterwards? He's omnipotent.

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WOOSH.
-----@%

The fall of Satan is a Christian/dualist concept.



This explains it.

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Sets up the sabbath.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

As i recall, the exposition about the fall of Lucifer and that sorta thing are rather rooted in the Old Testament, making it as much a Jewish thing as a Christian thing. Though if you wish to rebuke that, feel free, i may be mis-remembering.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

You're spot on.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

I love you Dor. Why must you already be taken?

And dangit, the server I thought #teapot was now on doesn't seem to like me. How will I ever find you again?

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Check out the following stories over at the Interactive Story Board:
The Never-ending Story Thread or visit the new webcomic version!
The Vision Cycle series
Featured Story: The Darkside Chronicles

Hate to sound pushy, but still...

This is what I mean by people taking something so simple, and reading too much into it to "translate" it rather than read it. You are essentially telling me that the reason you believe that Satan is let into heaven is because the word "down" is in there. Come on, you are really reaching there.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

umm.. there is nothing, really. that's what faith is about. if there was proof, there wouldn't be this discussion.

"There is no proof, for proof defies faith, and without faith i am nothing". Sounds bad for my argument as the whole quote, but that part sounds good.

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW

When people start getting all huffy, and demanding proof, I just remember a parable Jesus once told about a man who was condemned to the pit of fire, who begged God to send someone back to warn his brothers not to make the same mistake he did, and the reply from God was "I tell you this - even if I rose someone from the dead to tell them, they still would not believe."

In other words, people who do not want to believe won't, even if the most logical, factual, perfect argument proving the existance of God were laid at their feet. You cannot bypass ignorance (speaking generally - not just about religion here), unless the ignorant one is willing to also do so. The only way to cure ignorance is for the one being ignorant to stop being as such. You cannot show someone their ignorance - they're ignorant! They won't believe you anyway!

So what's the point? If they have the information straight and still don't believe, I just proverbally shake the dust of my shoes and move on. I'm called to make sure they have their facts straight, not to make them believe anything. I let God do his job, and I do mine. And I just move on from there.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

Ok, thanks for this.

But then the statistical probability of a god is just as much as the probability of EVERYTHING ELSE NOT PROVEN TO EXIST?

Doesn't that reduce FAITH to HOPE?

YES?

NO?



So, is there any?

It's strange, because you keep talking about FACTS, yet a few minutes before you posted, Noble Outlaw says THERE ARE NO FACTS?

And even putting aside facts...

What INDICATION or HINT is there of God?

And dude, I APPRECIATE you're trying to call me dumb SUBTLY, but it doesn't get you anywhere...

Just wrackin' up the fallacies, huh, Tenshu?

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Tenshu - first of all, can you stop the BIG CAPITALS in the MIDDLE of sentences

Second:

Whether you believe in evolution or whatever - surely everything didn't just appeared. Therefore the easiest explanation for most people is that there is some kind of God.

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Sweet irony...

If you are to believe in God, you should be a Muslim.
700 years after the birth of Jesus, God came to the prophet Mohammed and told him how the Christians had got it wrong because they had worshipped Jesus like a false idol, as he had specifically told them not to, and the Jews had got it totally wrong as they killed Jesus, and listed various other grievances as well. And whereas the Bible was written many many years after the death of Jesus Christ by the Apostles, the Koran was written by Mohammed himself and by those that he preached to.

So, why believe the prophet Abraham and the apostles of Jesus, but NOT the prophet Mohammed? Whether Judaism, Christianity or Islam, it is the same God, but a different prophet and Islam is the most up-to-date.

(Of course, Hinduism and Sikhism and Wicca and other multi-diety religions are a totally different kettle of fish, as is Buddhism (as it isn't actually a religion at all).)

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited March 01, 2004).]

God is not something that can be proven like a mathematical proof. It is going to be different for every individual person. Some require less proof than others. Someone who got out of a hard time might see that as enough proof or evidence for the existance of God. For others, it might take a miracle. For me, the fact that this world exists given the odds of Big Bang being successful is enough for me to believe in a higher power.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Most reasons i can at least understand, but this one I do not. What does it matter the probability of the big bang succeeding? IF it hadn't you wouldn't be here to question it. The very fact that you're here to question it makes the probability meaningless. Do you see what I'm saying?

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WOOSH.
-----@%

Bob.... Some would say that the favt you're here to say that is because god created the world.

Although the probability thing is stupid, there is less probability of god existing...

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WARNING: THIS POST MAY CONTAIN TRACES OF PEANUT!!!
---@%

In other words because you can't understand something, you just say "cause deh bible said so" and move on? Jee, if it was up to you, we would still think the world was flat, and the skies held up by pillars, or that thunder was thrown down by god, or that earthquakes were demons wrestling. "Just because right now we don't understand something, IT MUST BE GOD!!!!".

It's like giving up and saying "just cuz". Boils my blood for some reason. I think there may be a point where certain events are beyond human comprehension, ever. But just because that is, is in no way proof for a higher being, just lack of understanding.

God is a filler for what people don't understand. He is there as a summation of the impossiblities. Think about it, hyprothetically, if we knew everything about our own creation, and hell, everything period, would anyone belive in a god?

Everytime in this thread, god is "proven" by things outside people's undestanding. Read the thread, ALL people define god by things they can't explain. "It was a miracle!" "Everything is so complex it has to be god!" "What makes us tick? Must be a soul!" "What happens to us after we die? Must be god's decision!"

Deny if you want, the mand hiding behind the clouds is just a manefestation of ingorance of something. Your brain just can't deal with it, so to stop going insane, it puts a nice filler in so you can go on with your life. If you want, I'll glean every post and lo and behold, there will be an example of that.

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

Sure, but if the odds for something happening and working are 1 in a billion or even less than that and it works out, I don't believe that it's chance. Again, it goes to each individual. I said that was enough for me. For others, I said it might take more.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Where did I bring the Bible into this at all? I'm not denying what has happened to create our universe. Nowhere am I saying evolution didn't happen. I didn't say God just created the universe with the snap of a finger. I'm merely saying that at some point, I stop believing in the total randomness of something happening. There are questions that are still unaswered to this day like what cause the big bang in the first place. Where did all the matter involved come from in the first place? No matter what scientific explanation there is for the creation of the universe, you can always go a step further. That process will never end.

One more thing to add. Science toady is no different than the creation stories told by people thousands of years ago in that the study of the origin of the universe is jsut another attempt by humans to understand their begins and why we exist. The major difference is that we now have a much greater scientific understanding and the tools to look at things on a much larger scale. Furthermore, evrything today is theory. Very little has been out right proven.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

[This message has been edited by Avenger (edited March 01, 2004).]

...yeah ok Avenger never said that. If you're going to be intolerant at least be accurate.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Expanding on the thought, though, what's to say there weren't 1 billion failed 'big bangs' before the successful one? So you're saying if you you had a thousand sided die (just pretend) and it had a number 1 on only one side, that the probability of rolling it was so slim that only God's interference could explain it? So just because there's only a slim probability of it being successful, you automatically throw it away?

Again it's the 'looking up at tyhe clock and it's always ??:22' argument. You only choose to notice the times you're right. You're looking right past the possibility taht it failed several tiems and assuming that it just one day decided to bang and, whoa, there it is, but the universe was created on teh first try. Must be God! There's seriously a lot of flaw in that thinking.

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Clarinetists, unite!

-writer of Bloodwing: Fallen Soldier
(no site up yet...)

So?

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

BAHAHAHAahahaha

Truly, Avenger, you are amaster of debate. XD Well done.

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WOOSH.
-----@%

"For me, the fact that this world exists given the odds of Big Bang being successful is enough for me to believe in a higher power."

How did this not imply that?

1.) "given the odds of Big Bang being successful". We don't know much about it. Are there "odds" to it? Are there "odds" that evolution happened. That is a way of saying "we don't know what really happened, and there is such a lack of information that I doubt the odds"

2.)"believe in a higher power" So, to make up for that lack of understanding, insert god.

It isn't a huge leap. I never said he said that. It's like saying "I doubt X happened, so Y must be". X = Big Bang, Y = Creation by higher power. He doubts X, so he replaces X with Y...

I should just say the "bible" is just a refrence. Ok, replace bible with "because god did it". Even though, yeah, Avenger showed what he thought, and it isn't nearly as simple as that.

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

[This message has been edited by Lord Kuat (edited March 01, 2004).]

I am the Messiah. Bow down before me for I am great. I am also an atheist so I guess that contradicts what I just said. oh well I guess I will contradict myself like every other religion.

If "God" is real then why is he depicted as the only god although other religions may say the same thing. Strange.

If there is one "God" then how come he he view in so many different and opposing ways.



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*Bjorn*
muhahahha FIRE!!!!!!!! >:) ;(.
hi

I'm genuinely curious about something.
Lets assume for the moment that I agree with the whole irreducible complexity argument and that there had to be some divine intervention for the world and us to exist. All that indicates is the need for a higher power, not necessarily "God".

How do people come to the conclusion that this higher power they believe in is "God" (in the christian sense of the word) and not Vishnu or Ra or Zeus or GBK?

Wouldn't the assignment of the Christian God to this higher power be dependant on exposure to Christianity and upbringing? And if this is the case, how can another religion/deity be wrong when it uses all the same evidence that christianity does to support the existance of a higher power as a means for explaining these complex events?

NB: by same evidence, I mean that most religions can back up their holy books with archaelogical facts etc

Like I said I'm curious about peoples' decision making process not wanting another God does/doesn't exist debate.

Edit: Well, Bjorn said essentially what I did, but got there first. That'll learn me to leave my post to go and eat lunch.


[This message has been edited by Run (edited March 01, 2004).]

You will all meet God at the HeavenGates after death, and then you make the claim that there is no God... I can only pray that you all pass the test of living here before it's too late.

If you say "im a Christian" doesnt mean that youre going to heaven. But there are good nonChristian people too but are certain to be condemned because they haven't accepted Jesus Christ, the Son of the One True Living God, as their redeemer/Savior
Jesus even said "no one comes to the Father BUT by me" That is why it is important to reach out to those in need to save them before it's too late.

Modern day social philosophies cannot understand that. They believe: "every way is right as long as you feel that it is right."
^ is simply, wrong.
It is also proven by facts that the Christian Church in general is dying in N.America & Europe. But, in Africa/Asia it is growing faster than ever, even under intense persecution. This is because Christianity is the ONE AND ONLY religion that offers a personal, one on one relationship with the Supreme God. Unlike others who go through motions, rituals, etc but have no inner satisfaction
This is possible through Christianity because Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice (as you saw in 'The Passion') of His life for YOU. He was also abandoned by God, meaning that Jesus experienced Hell in our spot because of our sins. Ever since the 1st sin mankind as a whole has been condemned. For you are not your own, but were bought at a price. God loves you, whether you like it or not.
All you have to do, is believe that He did this and that he was not merely human, but also sinless (that He is God).
If you cannot believe that this is the only way (the Way, the Truth, and the Life) then your heart is hardened. We are always involved in a Spiritual War here, people. Good Vs Evil everyday

Im not a preacher but this is my belief. I hope you understand. Lets see how many times I get quoted and picked on because of it...

It appears that this topic has drifted from "Possibility of God" to "Why Christianity"
Well this wraps up my longest post ever, but it was worth it.
[edit]Where is the religion forum when you need it

[This message has been edited by F-Body (edited March 01, 2004).]

^^ Well ****. I'm **** out of luck then.

Wonderful. Dismissing other people's religions in one sweeping statement then claiming persecution in advance if it's disputed.



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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

....Homeschooled, are we, F-Body?


-Fox

The problem with this debate is that one side is highly dependant on personal feelings. For those of you asking for "proof" of gad and want something tangible are not going to get it. Its just not going to happen, and you can't accept that someone else believes in something with out enough proof for you.

Again, is the search for the origins of the universe through science any different than what people did to explain the creation of the world many thousands of years ago? At the most basic level, there is no difference. Only the method has changed.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Thats an awfully broad generalisation you've got there. Most atheists/agnostics I know dont really care what religion someone is, it's just irritating to be told what to believe and that I am going to suffer eternal torment if I don't. If that was true, most of the world is going to hell, so at least I'll have plenty of company.

Plus I can reverse your statement and say that proponents of religion can't accept that atheists/agnostics don't believe because we haven't seen anything to convince us otherwise. But that just starts the whole merry-go-round of proof/no-proof



I'll have to disagree with you on that one. That change in method is a rather important change. Science is based on quantifiable and repeatable experimental data, while a religious explanation tends to avoid quantitative data in favour of qualitative answers which are highly subjective. The scientific method on the other hand is designed to be objective, which is a substantial difference. (IMHO anyways, your mileage may vary depending on how much weight you give objective data over subjective)


[This message has been edited by Run (edited March 01, 2004).]