Well, you get eternal life in heaven AND hell.., but in heaven you get eternal life in permanent bliss and happiness.. in hell.. well.. in permanent torment and pain.. like constant 3rd degree burns except they never stop, and you never get used to them... and that's not including the creatures that are more disturbing than the ones in your worst nightmares..



------------------
Member of the Minneassian Council

I wonder what old Rene would have to say about this debate over his little bit of reasoning?

------------------
"A film is - or should be - more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what's behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later."--Stanley Kubrick

IMO : Hell is a tool to fear people into following a religion.



------------------


---Thomas jefferson, Declaration of Independance.

Dang Moxidide, you must be very familiar with hell.

In any case, ignorance is bliss. I ain't after that. So far both places sound like they suck, expcet one exponentially more. I want what they had in Grim Fandango dang it! Action! Corruption! Romance!

------------------
http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

I have a question. Why would satan want to torture people who share similar interests?

------------------
WOOSH.
-----@%

WOW! Another Religious forum! Ok here goes folks (when i rolls up my sleeves, i just ain't puttin on the ritz [our god is an awesome god])


Anywayz, I think that yall need to read a HANDY DANDY NOTEBOOK! I like it. It's good. Called "The Case for Christ." This is one of those books for your people who have to be proven wrong the hard way, by geological evidence. As for the Bible bein real, what are the chances of over 30 different books by over 30 different authors over 500 years all writing about the same thing, never contradicting itself. The Bible is true because God spoke through the authors and implied his thoughts onto paper, through 30 different people, and 30 different books. Gettin the picture? Some people say "AW! Well there's mistakes in the Bible." Well God is perfect (based on the Bible) and if he wrote the Bible, then the Bible is perfect/true and then JESUS (key word there) really existed and is the Son of God. You see, you can't say all religions are right, because, to a point, they all disagree with one another. And there is a handy dandy law of physics (i forgot by who) but it states that Matter cannot form into a more complex state, but it breaks down (why people die, they break down). So evolution is outlawed because the species can't come from Primordial Soup and turn into a butterfly. It has to be put there, put there by A GOD. About the whole shape of the earth thing. A theory that I now believe in is, what if God (saying there is one) gave the earth an appearance that it never had? Like the Grand Canyon. It could've been made by a violent volcanic explosion during the Old Testament days. It also could've been made during the big flood that covered the earth. I'm gonna stop for a bit before i confuze myself.

Btw, if you do go to hell, heh heh, have fun. Not only watching your mom and dad burning in oblivion hanging on a cross right next to you screaming in inhuman screams, but having Satan laugh right in your face saying "YOU SCREWED UP! YOU HAD THE CHANCE!" You look up towards heaven and see Jesus, looking down on you, crying for you, but you had the choice. God wanted you in heaven, but you were too stubborn. Didn't listen to him? Oh well. Then say it doesn't get cold in Hell....

------------------
0_o o_0....ur pants fell off.

I've read The Case For Christ. It is 75% preaching and 100% ****.

By the way, scientific laws don't MAKE anything happen. They describe what does happen. Entropy doesn't mean Evolution is wrong.

------------------
WOOSH.
-----@%

But it means it couldn't START! God could've put the animals and folks here, and then they could've changed, but in order for animals to appear, there has to be a God.

------------------
0_o o_0....ur pants fell off.

Yes. In order for animals to APPEAR, there would have to be a god. Well argued.

They didn't just appear. That's the whole point. They EVOLVED.

------------------
WOOSH.
-----@%

I havent posted here for years but...

-If God has set plans for us, why does he set some people to not believe him? To make it fair Satan when a "big war" comes?

-Many of the stories contradict each other. Read Matthew and John and the other dudes, you'll see what I mean. Two things of different coincidences only THEORETICALLY happen on the quantum level.

-If you constantly look at "the little things God does," you're wrong. It strictly said in the Bible that he wont interfere with human life. So how is he suddenly doing it?

-http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html

-People do not, and will almost never, accept that they are wrong. That quote on the first page is called in psychology "Belief Perseverance."

-Why CANT evolution work? Who says God didnt make evolution happen, or God didnt come up with physics to rule the Universe so that things happen orderly? What makes him HAVE to do EVERYTHING?

-Why doesn't God slap us on the face and say "BELIEVE" ??? Why must it be left up to us to decide when people don't know what they want, and when the whole process of believing is unfair? What about those several religions that say "if you're not our religion you go to hell" ??? Is this all a matter of which religion is right? How can you justify which one is right?

-Ever hear of the telephone game? Things get altered as they get passed down from one person to another. Also, stories tend to get exaggerated with bias or misunderstanding. It wasnt until fairly recently where people were able to train themselves to be less biased, and even then, it never goes away. The Bible is more of a way to look at things morally than it is a factual statement of history.

There ya go, things nobody can argue except saying "God is real." Do I believe in God? Yes. But I believe he created evolution and physics and some way to create the universe since it hasnt APPARENTLY always been here. If so, how was it created in the first place? Where did the universe come from? It seems too improbable for something to suddenly exist from... what? But then how was God created? If God wasn't created, how can he have lived forever? It doesn't make sense. There are too many questions against God that can't be answered, and some things that science can't answer, so my stance is God stays out of our lives. Do I believe in Heaven and Hell? I don't know yet.

------------------
RAWRRR I've read these forums for years but only posted a couple times...

Ha'Schem forbid.

"He who saves a Jewish soul is as if he saved an entire world." (Sanhedrin 37a)

------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Another thing. MATTER stays basic on the quantum level, but it changes through chemical reactions. Which is more complex, Hydrogen or Acetic acid? Evolution doesnt go by those gay laws. In fact, it makes too much sense not to. All it is is organisms with the better traits fit to adapt to their environments pass on their genes more successfully because they dont die off as fast. As this happens, there may be other traits that some animals have (because as all people are different, all animals are different) that get passed on as well. Then you cant forget genetic mutations. There has been billions of years for things to happen, and it just makes too much sense to ignore it. Anyone can claim to have evidence suggesting one or the other, but if you remove the bias from each of these pieces of "evidence," the only real way to know God is real is for him to tell you himself. If that's happened to one of you, buy a straightjacket, because the Bible said he wont do that.

------------------
RAWRRR I've read these forums for years but only posted a couple times...

Ok Viper, here goes:

1. In Revelation, it says God wins. And God has his ways. No one knows. the Bible says God does things that make no sense until you know what he's thinkin (like when you get into heaven)

2.Where?

3. Where again?

4.Too lazy to look at the link.

5.Because in the Bible, in Genesis, it says God made the Animals right there in one day. Adam was made from dust, and Eve made from Adam's rib. SO, from the Biblical veiw, God couldn't have made them evolve.

6.Because God can't control your heart. I'm sure you've seen Bruce Almighty. One of the things they got right about God is that he can't make people believe in him. We do have free will, and that's what seperated us from him in the first place (the apple in Eden). When something huge happens in your life, the holy spirit might make the wheels in your head be all "wow, thats crazy, that can't just happen." You never know. We never know what God wants each person to do. He just has a plan. and somepeoples plan is to, sadfully, go to hell. And God will harden somepeoples hearts so they don't believe in him. Its just the way it goes.

7. The texts in the Bible were written THROUGH GOD. So God put the ideas into their head and they wrote it down. God perfect. He can't make a mistake.

------------------
0_o o_0....ur pants fell off.

Eh? It lists the tribes in Revelations - I'm not sure what you're getting at.

------------------
"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it

Some of these responses are so annoying! Bad things happen because it's part of life, and there are things that your cells or viruses or animals or chemicals do that you have no control of! Human rationality is EXTREMELY flawed and makes MANY mistakes when looking over things! We interpret the world in the way that our brain makes it useful for us! There is no other way. If our brain finds it useful to believe in God, we will, if it finds it useful to rip off our arms, it will do that. Things happen because things can't be perfect, not everyone can have their way, things that aren't controllable can't be controlled, and other organisms have rights to live as well. There will never be a perfect world where we wont have to worry about problems. There will never be a perfect world where God will do everything for us. Do you think my dog believes in God? Do you think he know's what God is? I just asked him and he stared blankly at me just as if I told him his brain is the size of a walnut. If animals don't believe in God, do they go to hell? Just because we have a consciousness (that nobody can explain why we have, or why WE were chosen to have it) doesn't mean we can make rational thoughts or irrational thoughts. Maybe I'm wrong about my rationality, but until God smacks me in the face and tells me all these contradictory things are run by him and not by laws he established for everyone, I refuse to believe that we have no control over our lives for NO GIVEN REASON (except a reason that God has that "nobody can no," which is more like one that religious people can't figure out a reason for so they call it a "reason they can't explain" or something retarded to make life seem relevant). We simply startes as a bunch of amino acids and lightning sparked us to life. Maybe God did something there, or created Earth to do something important eventually, but we are CERTAINLY NOT THE IMPORTANT THINGS THAT HE HAD IN MIND! We are too flawed a people to be what he's after, and there are too many things that cannot be explained by the Bible or by religion or any ideas for God to be a proven theory. Just accept the fact that if God exists, he leaves us alone and things happen as a result of a balanced environment (to an extent) which is constantly changing. Life will not exist forever, and humans not for a very long time as we are the most fragile species on the planet. Life is irrelevant. When life was created in bacteria the only reason to living was to not die. That's how we are run now, and there's no purpose behind living when we will die someday anyway. If there's a heaven, then we have a reason to die, but what's the reason for heaven, and if you constantly get what you want in heaven how can you be happy forever? You think rich people are happy? How is this any different? It's FAR too unexplainable damnit! Stop explaining everything in terms of religion and explain things in terms of what has not defied law or reason yet and by what will probably work or make sense in the future. It's about what will make sense and benefit you!

------------------
RAWRRR I've read these forums for years but only posted a couple times...

Read the link I posted and things make sense. How do we know God is perfect? Why do we need to make a choice if God can just appear in front of us all simultaneously and tell us that he exists? Why does God volunteer himself to always win? Doesn't that seem a little unperfect?

[This message has been edited by Viper_the_Saint (edited February 28, 2004).]

Why would someone be made from someone's rib? Last time I checked there wasn't enough matter to do so. And even if God "created matter" to do it, why not leave the rib in tact and do something a little less original?

------------------
RAWRRR I've read these forums for years but only posted a couple times...

Viper, when was the last time you made someting from a rib. pretty original to me. and read the entire book of revelation. The tribes is just some part i dont get yet. Animals go to heaven because they dont have souls. WE DO! WE MATTER. srry for the breif ness. tryin to be quiet on a noisy keyboard.

------------------
0_o o_0....ur pants fell off.

Although blackbelt seems to take genesis literaly, which is his right, it is accepted by the catholic church that the book of genesis is not literal, far from it. the catholic church also accepts evolution to be a valid theory, so i'm not sure why everyone keeps tossing that back and forth at each other.

------------------
"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW

Viper, you might want to use paragraphs more with your large posts. Makes them much much easier to read.

------------------
Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

LOL I accomplished my goal: Opened a can of worms
Yeah sorry about the paragraph part, I don't really have organized thoughts at 2 in the morning. Nor do I have organized thoughts about this in concrete as it is. If Catholics believe in evolution and everything... looks like I found my religion! I'm going to look into it... I didn't know much about religion at all, except they are fanatics about things you can't prove.
But now this is brought to my attention. Looks like I'm going to do some research. If something can incorporate God with religion and things of the sort, I may just think about that kind of religion

------------------
RAWRRR I've read these forums for years but only posted a couple times...

It's just an off-comment, an aside, to put it in theatre terms. Nevermind.

------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

hehe... I really want to and so...

"Shouldn't this be in the Religious Discussion forum?"

/me prays that they bring it back and move this ******* to where it belongs.

------------------
-=I'm the wang of this here site, and it's HUGE! So just imagine how big I am.=-
1337Yectiwan
OSC Returns!!
10 of 14 -- 27 Lives On

uh, its only one thread, and its behaving itself rather well, in my opinion. is it really that offensive?

------------------
"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
"I'm a Cannabal-Vegitarian. I will BBQ an employee if there is no veggie option"
-DX:IW

*begins worshipping Viper*

------------------
Checksum: I thought about it, I guess I'm striving for my own personal ideals. I'll just project those ideals onto Jesus and say "I'm trying to be like Jesus" so that I won't have to listen to you banter endlessly about me worshipping a false god or some such.

The Last True Evil: Ironically, that's very Christian of you.

*begins worshipping Viper*

------------------
Checksum: I thought about it, I guess I'm striving for my own personal ideals. I'll just project those ideals onto Jesus and say "I'm trying to be like Jesus" so that I won't have to listen to you banter endlessly about me worshipping a false god or some such.

The Last True Evil: Ironically, that's very Christian of you.

I dont find anything logic, i mean Adam+Eva, gotted two children, both boys, one killed the other, and thats how humanity is born!
second thing, if god really created us and have the power over us, why do he make with some terrorists or with U.S.A (nothing meaning with U.S.A) a a-bomb and throw it on a country so millions of people die

------------------
-thank you man, raly appriciate it

Yes... MUCH more likely.

...

So what... God likes to walk around near the borders of paradise and it would be LOGICAL for him to hear Satan? Or is heaven really REALLY small? Or does Satan shout really really loud, like one of those guys you see at FOOTBALL MATCHES?

****, I forgot the all-powerful God hears everything. Yet he doesn't have the power nor knowledge to keep his angels to the GOOD side??!

Uh-oh. God has CHARISMA ISSUES??

Don't you accuse me somewhere in here of making assumptions?

'from beyond the pearly gates' ..... ??



I was misinformed. Sorry guys...

But actually, and this is just PERSONAL thinking rather than an argument... Why does God feel the need to prove himself to someone else?

a- I always think having to prove yourself towards others is a weakness
b- He actually proves himself to the apparent 'EPITOME OF EVIL'. It would've been really... DIVINE instead if he would've just killed Satan and eradicated evil...

Very weak and personal and UNSCIENTIFIC thoughts, I know...



See, that's why the guy on page two got pissed while talking to you. You accused him of being illogical, yet the very thing you defend is BEYOND REASON and every now and then you say ... ***ODD*** stuff like this.

WTF is 10 random occurances? Is that a SCIENTIFICALLY ACCEPTABLE TERM? Would ANY scientist or professor accept this? Sorry dude, this is a D- for you...

Actually, hit me up on those numbers of asteroids hitting the earth and you winning the lottery. See, I KINDA think you made this ENTIRE statement up. But don't you worry about that, I'm probably the only one who thinks this anyways.

You're like one of those guys who say OMG, EVERY time I look at the clock it says 22:22. Yet SOMEHOW they forgot about ALL THE OTHER TIMES it DIDN'T show 22:22...

As you so eloquently put: STATISTICS.



Ummm... I'm actually saying evolution is the ONLY reason for organisms being adapted.



Hahaaa, this reminds me of a FRIENDS episode in which Phoebe says she doesn't believe in evolution or even gravity...
'I think we're kinda PUSHED DOWN instead of pulled down'

But ENOUGH WITH THE FUNNY BUSINESS.

Are you DENYING evolution?

****. I'm actually debating inside my head how to get to you guys... I've read all these manuals by zoologists and biologists and psychologists(SECULAR of course - those guys are the BEST) and I *REALLY* don't know how to get the message across.

Dawkins explains this really nicely. He uses something called 'mount improbability' to explain this.

There's a HUGE mountain. One side is really really steep, and potential climbers sigh, saying it can't be done. They look at the top, somewhere in the sky, and they say you could only get to the top by taking a huge leap. Which only GOD could take.

Then you have some really cool guys, including me and various others in this thread, who also want to get to the top.

THEY see things more CLEARLY. They take a drive around the bottom of the mountain, and they discover the other side of the mountain is actually SUPER NON-STEEP, and it has this nice little path which climbs really gradually to the top. Suddenly it seems really easy to reach the top.

Guys, we don't need this climbing equipment, we need WALKING SHOES

GET IT!??

You NON-SECULAR dudes only see the result of evolution. Oh, it's so perfect and God and blablaBLA.

The REAL darwinists/evolutionists/whatever at the other side walk across the gentle path and say oh, I get it. I can SEE how this path leads to the top, even though it doesn't really FEEL like it's going up when your walking it

Wake up... evolution is REALITY. Kinda at the same level as the earth revolving around the sun.



.............

I'm ****ing SPEECHLESS.

.................

WTF does Galilei have to do with this. Wasn't he ANTI religion???? Didn't he get arrested by CHRISTIAN inquisition?

WTF do we have to re-believe the sun revolving around the earth?

............................

I seriously don't get this, even through HEAPS AND HEAPS of logic. GIRLS in this forum might naturally have a better shot at it though.



?????

WHAT assumptions?

Isn't the very CORE of *****BELIEF****** that you CAN'T base your faith on science?

??????????????

And don't say 'on to Avenger' like you just HANDLED me like James Bond or something

D-

Sure, GOd could if he wanted to, but one of the big things in the Bible is that people are given free will and then God steps back from the picture and lets things happen as they will.

I have a quick question for the religious folks here. Do you believe what's written in the bible happened word for word, like Genesis, or do you look for the meaning behind the story? Personally, I know that the genesis story and others in the bible fit the definition of myths, not unlike those of the ancient Greeks, but that the stories have valuable lessons for people.

------------------
I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

They evolved from what, other things too? Where did they come from? If it all evolved then surely there was a starting point for the first thing to evolve. Imo even if you don't believe in a Christian God, you would have to belive that some kind of other source managed to create the first thing (Christians believe was always there etc.)


------------------


Sweet irony...

Except for the fact that hell was invented by religious people to say "Hey, believe in God or suffer for74 generations" to non-believers.


------------------
Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

If Hell was made up by believers, then i guess you just assume you can get inot heaven, but you can't because you can only get into heaven thorugh Jesus. Therefore, if you don't believe in Jesus, you can't go into heaven, so you go into Hell. Have fun there man.

------------------
0_o o_0....ur pants fell off.

I'm not going to go find the quotes, but the reason God would have let your cousin die, Ruth, is because he doesn't interfere.

What you're trying to say is that because he allowed evil to happen, God cannot exist because God is perfectly good. However, it can be argued that there has to be a balance. With good there has to be evil. More widely accepted is the idea that In letting bad things happen, God allows a greater good to come from the bad.

Using words like "perfect" and "forever" are misleading. We each have our own subjective idea of what "perfect" is. Since we, ourselves, are not perfect we have no basis to argue from since we have no experience with actual perfection. The same argument applies with "forever" and other infinite modifiers.

------------------
Baby Mama's Drama

This is how we all ended up thinking we're going to heaven :T

------------------
Clarinetists, unite!

-writer of Bloodwing: Fallen Soldier
(no site up yet...)

He doesn't. It's the absence from God that's torturous.

------------------
Do you have stairs in your house?

This argumentative exemplar of impeccable logic and assuredly entitled assumption is the perfect contribution to this extremely civilized debate!

------------------
Or then not. --FastGamerr/Nikumubeki

That's, as I keep pointing out, assuming taht every good believer goes to heaven. Anyone care to find a line in the bible that mentions this? And as far as I can recall, There is no literal hell under teh earth, when you're dead you're simply dead. And during the armageddon, Satan is to be 'chained up and contained for 1000 years', so how would he continue to torture people in eternity?



That'd be a good point, but you're overlooking taht Adam and Eve had more than two kids. They had 3 sons (seth) plus a bunch of daughters.



According to the bible (which I knew the exact verse, but I know my aunt has shown it to me before (she researches teh bible a lot)), one day in God's eyes is like 1000 to us or something. I'm sure my number is completely off, I think it was in terms of years. But just for argument's sake, let's say it's 1000 days. That would mean that animals were created in 1000 days, not 1, which, while still smaller than the believed creation of life, it is a lot more practical and open to the ideas of evolution.

------------------
Clarinetists, unite!

-writer of Bloodwing: Fallen Soldier
(no site up yet...)

They evolved from...oh, i forget exactly what the theory is, but i believe it was some kind of bacteria. And that came from amino acids, i think, and those from simple elements. So, in a way, man was created from dust, if you want to think of the bible as a metaphor, then there's an argument for you to use.


That doesn't sound torturous to me. It certainly doesn't sound like just because God isn't there i'll be burning in fire and brimstone for eternity. I live without God right now, and I've only burned myself twice, once on the stove and another time near the fireplace.



------------------
WOOSH.
-----@%

If youre going to keep arguing about Job, at least reference what you're talking about:



My understanding of this passage [sons of God aside..] is that Satan was reporting to God, despite being fallen and corrupt, he was still a subordinate and had the duty to, what, report to a parole officer is the image i'm coming up with. Now this is just me, and i'm not really a rabbinic scholar.

------------------
[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Well thats just a theory. I've heard of it. But why would God want to mislead us like that? It says in the Bible 'and there was morning and night the first day.' Sounds to me like a 24 hour period. So that part is all how you want to look at it.


------------------
0_o o_0....ur pants fell off.