Ok, so I was in class today and was talking with a friend of mine. (She is a devout Christian, very conservative, etc.)

We got on the topic of homosexuality. I'll make things short.

She said that the Bible says it is wrong.
I said why would God make someone that way if that were true.
She says being gay is a choice.
I said that people are born gay, they don't choose to be gay.
She says it is just my opinion.

I find it very hard to believe that homosexuality is a choice, considering many of my gay friends say they were born that way. What do you guys think?

I think this thread is doomed to flame war.

I think mankind is born sinful. We don't exactly choose to "fall short of the glory of God" we're just born that way, and need to deal with it.

That's the way I look at being gay in relation to Christianity. I think it's wrong, but I don't think you should hold it over someone as especially wrong, since everyone has sinned, or struggles to resist some sort of sinful desires.

I'm not better than anyone else for not being gay. We're both equally fallen in nature.

Also, the sin isn't being gay, but acting out those desires. Wanting to make love to a beautiful woman is how I was born, but the sin would be in the act of going and sleeping with a woman I shouldn't sleep with.

[edit] Being gay may not be a choice, but having sex with men is. If someone is born gay, that's unfortunate for them, but I can think of some Christians that view that as a gift, because they can devote themselves more fully to serving Christ rather than serving their family + Christ. It's definitely a touchy topic, though.

Axis wasn't born delusional, he chooses to be.

Hehe. Axis.

Oh, man. This is just too rich. Please don't stop posting this stuff.

I think it's a choice about as much as being an artist is a choice. You're probably born with a bit of tendency, just a little, your life experiences mold that (whether you want them to or not) and then you make a "choice" to live the way you feel.

For the record, I don't have any gay friends and I can never see myself with any gay friends. Not because I dislike gay people, but because I don't like gay. I mean, I don't like body kits and loud exhaust tip things on hondas, either...so naturally I don't generally talk to people who do that. See my meaning?

You don't like people who "do that"? Do you not like women since they also like to sleep with men?

Bobthemasher has gay friends and doesn't know it. <.<

/me hugs Vinny, pinches his bum, runs.

While I certainly don't believe people are 'born gay', I don't think it's a choice either. There are the usual arguments against it. Why the hell would you CHOOSE to be a sexual deviant? And for all the people who think it IS a choice, why don't you choose to be gay for a bit, and see how it goes?

Nor is it a sin to be gay, or to have gay sex - how can it be? Where's the harm? Things need a reason to be wrong, and, sorry, 'God said so' doesn't cut it (For a variety of reasons, the first being that the bible is not the word of God.) A thing is wrong if it causes suffering, and for all intents and purposes, gay sex does the exact opposite. Telling your mother might be a sin, though.

Another thing I see a lot of from the 'God says so' crowd is the grouping of homosexuals with homosexual pedophiles. We see this when the Boy Scouts kick out homosexual scout masters.

Ask her when she made the decision to be straight.

Also, if sex is a sin under various conditions, why do we even have the urge untill mairried, etc. Seems like kind of a large bug in the software :saddowns:

why end this pertinent description with 'etc.?' come on, just tell us she's also white so we can have the veritable trifecta of intransigence and disregard the ignorant opinions of a clear bigot (undoubtedly a racist, as well) from the beginning!

in all seriousness:downswords:, whenever i've wondered about this timeless philosophical question i've pictured myself given two options: the fine, supple, smooth, inviting, hairless backside of a woman lying prostrate; the beefy, muscular, coarse-haired, sweaty *** of a man lying prostrate, both before me, and i'm to make my choice.

clearly, to fancy the object of the latter scenario D: would require more than a conscious selection:tinfoil:

This thread is pointless.

On one hand, the children of Abraham are arguing with truth.

On the other, the bearers of truth are arguing with faith.

Anovis is gay for finland.

He doesn't choose it this way, he was just born with a errection made for the butt of finland.

You stated an opinion as fact. Sure, so did she, but you will never be able to present a strong position that way.

Duh, Greg.

Everytime anyone says something (and doesn't support it with strong evidence), they are stating an opinion.

For example:


"OMG THATS UR OPINION"


Well DUH, I said it, didn't I?

If I recall correctly, the Bible also states that if you have homosexual feelings, it's only a sin if you pursue them. I probably don't recall correctly though, since I tend to ignore church..

Some straight men prefer muscular women while some gay men prefer to have partners with smaller, softer bodies. Some gay women prefer butch while others prefer girly. It really all comes down to what you like.

This is true.

Though she's a little old fashioned.

This is a gay debate.

Notice that I didn't say I didn't like gay people or wouldn't talk to them. I have no problem with them, I'm sure I've been friendly with plenty of gay guys and girls. I just don't hang out with any gay guys because I've never met a gay guy I share interests with. If I ever meet a gay guy (or a guy with a lame honda) who likes trucks, offroading, guns, emergency services, and video games, I'll hang out with him. I haven't yet. It's not a rule I have, it's just an observation I've made.

P.S. I don't really want to hear girls talk about men. Do you? Boring!

Oh, you're just an idiot. My mistake.

Uhm...did I miss something? Am I horribly offending gay men everywhere without realizing it? Why the hostility?

I think he might be referring to the fact that you have straight friends whose particular tastes you don't expect to match your own.

My post wasn't directed at you, Bob.

As an example (I'm 100% straight female lova!), couldn't the same argument be used for beastiality?

Say I felt that I didn't choose the livestyle of having sex with animals - I was born attracted to them.

Using the same argument, shouldn't this be ok then?

He doesn't know that. And he's wrong. All my close friends share extremely similar interests. That's why they're my close friends. I say "Do you guys want to drive out to the hill and shoot guns?" and they say "Yes. That sounds fun."

If we're talking about people-I-talk-to-sometimes friends, then sure, I don't expect my interests to match theirs as much. But that would (hypothetically) apply to gay guys as well. It's just that the catch-22 is that I probably won't know someone is gay if they share my interests because it won't come up or be obvious.

All I'm saying is that IN MY EXPERIENCE, I have yet to meet a gay guy that I would want to hang out with. Why don't you focus your hate on people who care, who want to make that lifestyle illegal?

[Edit: okay, not directed at me so some of that is mostly irrelevant, but I think my main point is relevant. Anyway...]

As for bestiality, hey, if you find an animal that can consent then have at in the privacy of your own home. None of my business. But I think generally that's considered animal cruelty.

barring the filmed exploitations of said bestiality, the perforation of your intestines by a horse cock, your subsequent death/the exposure of the bestiality ring you were a participant in, and the inevitable public backlash and calls for legislation banning bestiality... sometimes it is OK!

[edit: this is me championing the cause of homosexuality; my pièce de résistance! /edit]

What if it's the animal that comes up to you and starts humping? I mean, that's more the animal's fault for not asking you for your consent...

Two consenting adults having mutual sexual relations is not the same as a sapient being forcing a non-consenting sentient being into sexual activities.

Not going to get into the whole religion aspect, since I'm not religious.

What's that scale called that basically gives you a rating, with like 0 being completely heteosexual and 6 being completely homosexual? The Kinsey Scale? I'm pretty sure the majority of people aren't pure 0s, or pure 6s. Most probably fall somewhere in between. I do agree that life experiences play a large factor, look at how many homosexuals married into heterosexual relationships when being homosexual was less socially acceptable than it is now, and stayed in those heterosexual relationships all of their lives.

As for myself, I have no problem with homosexuals. I support same-sex marriage. I personally don't have any close friends who are gay. This girl who I recently started seeing has a gay couple as roommates, and they obviously have a large number of gay friends. When I go see her we all hang out. This was probably the first time that I'd been in a social situation with homosexuals. At first it struck me as a bit odd to hear stuff like a guy saying "my boyfriend", but that's simply lack of exposure. I quickly got used to it.

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, and it wasn't always as socially taboo as it is now. Hopefully this is one of many things that improves as generations pass.

I always thought being gay was a choice until I actually got to know someone who was gay

I don't believe it is a choice.

To those who believe that homosexuality is a choice, could you suddenly choose to fall in love with another member of your sex? I didn't think so.

Axis said everything I was going to. From a Christian/religious viewpoint, it's the act itself that is wrong. So yes, it's a choice to "be gay" and act on those impulses. But you don't have a choice on the way you feel or the things you desire. And like men who lust after women, or people who have hateful or violent thoughts, some people are attracted to the same sex. They can't help it. That's the trial and the challenge God has given them, and it will take faith and diligence to overcome. But it is always a choice to act.

I agree with what you meant, but you said it in the wrong way. Love does not equal sex. A heterosexual man can love another man, and never desire to have sex with him.

I agree with that. Being oklahoma, there are tons of really religious christians around here. I have met plenty of hardcore christians whose beliefs I respect that hold that same view. That having homosexual feelings is just like having heterosexual lust (for example, premarital sex or adultery or something), in that it is a sin that you are burdened with, but there's no shame in it as long as you control the urge. I really respect that even though I totally disagree with it. But...I still say mind your own business if you try to impose anything on someone.

Ha ha!

/Nelson

All you have is ambiguity of terms.

Gay debate is gaaaaaaay.

It's not like they wake up one day and think, "I know, I'll be gay. That will annoy a lot of people and promote hate against me".