(disclaimer: I'm getting into this late, and don't want to read the whole thing, so I'm just responding to the first post)


I have a few things to say to this.
First, you're claiming that it's illogical to think that being gay is a sin, because if it was, God wouldn't have made people gay. Well I ask you, is it more logical to assume that God would allow the book that expresses his will to be incorrect?

Second, just because someone may have a genetic propensity towards a certain sin, does not let them off the hook. It just means they need to put in extra effort to stay away from it. For example, the son of an alcoholic will be genetically inclined to become an alcoholic, and so to avoid that, should probably not drink at all. If he does drink, and becomes an alcoholic, should we not hold him responsible? (Another good example is gluttony.)

Third, I find the idea of homosexuality being genetic to be fairly paradoxical. As someone who is homosexual is relatively unlikely to produce offspring, wouldn't it be logical to assume that we would see a decline in homosexuality over the course of humanity? This doesn't seem to be the case. While I've not specifically done any research on the subject, I think it's safe to assume that instances of homosexuality have remained relatively constant. Otherwise, we would not see nearly so many people "coming out" in recent years as homosexuality suddenly becomes more accepted in our society. This leads me to believe that that it is not genetic, but instead is a fad, though I don't make any declarative statement on the subject, nor do I take a specific stance, as I don't believe the issue to be provable either way, unless scientists suddenly discover a "gay gene." Should that happen, I don't want to have to eat my words. However, even if it were to happen, I don't see how it would really affect anything, for the other two reasons above.

You're ignorance to the rest of the thread just made you look like an idiot.

1. That's assuming God intended absolutely everything, and you can't question anything ever at all. Good job not using the brain he gave you.

2. Alcoholism can kill you, homosexuality can't. That's why they shouldn't be expected to avoid it.

3. You missed about 5 pages of science explaining why that's not true, how there basically is a gay gene, and how there's been homosexuality in every state of human existence.

Anal Fissure, aids, asphyxiation.

"Junk" implies that they are inherently negative, which they are not necessarily. Note that no one has specifically identified any such traits, nor have they pointed to any genes they suspect are involved in homosexuality. We also have little to no understanding of how and to what degree any genes influence any behavior. This is just a possible explanation for how a phenotype that tends not to produce offspring can appear repeatedly in a population over a long period.

Another way for such traits to be passed on is indirectly through relatives. If an individual does not produce offspring but does help increase chances of successful reproduction by close relatives, the genes that led to that individual are likely to be passed on. This is why some birds return to help their parents rear offspring rather than start their own nest if they can't find a good territory- it helps their genes more to have more siblings than to attempt to breed when it will probably fail. Google "alloparenting" if you want to know more. This explanation is also limited in its application to human homosexuality. I know some cultures have had gender roles that may be analogous to the homosexuals of today's western culture, but I don't know if they have any relation to this concept. But it is another mechanism by which genes that may seem maladaptive can be readily passed on.



See my last post and the above wall of text, as both directly address this issue.

What? Where do you get...OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

None of those are specific to homosexuality.

The only way being homosexual is going to get you killed is if some redneck shoots you or something.

Being shot by a redneck isn't specific to being gay either.

Guns don't even kill people. Bullets do. BLAME BULLETS NOT GUNS.

That's kind of like, it's not AIDS that kills gays, it's thin anal walls.

BLAME ANAL WALLS NOT AIDS

I always found this idea very strange, given the rampant, violent abuse of all manner of animals in the food industry

america+sex=lol

Well...killing animals for food, and screwing them for fun is a bit different.

Yeesh. This thread is not on my homosexual agenda.

ANSWER:

Dont argue with Christians!



Out of all the Christians I've met, 70% of them were ignorant judgemental hypocrytical self-deluded retards.

my brother is gay, and once a christian student called Wiblin said he was going to hell for it. So i hit him in the face with his own textbook.

Thats biblical Justice boy-o
etc etc

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Well obviously, but does it really matter

I mean people in the west get way more protein from meat than we're supposed to have anyway, we eat animals because they're delicious, not because we need to

So in that sense there is a similarity, except animals are not sexy-delicious

Having sex with a living breathing animal is not the same as consuming its dead tissues. One is part of a cycle that has been here for a few billions years, and the other has been around since...man created breweries?

I have discovered an interesting question.

Would screwing a Neanderthal be bestiality (or just necrophilia) ?

The fact that the Bible is stupid, unfair, unjust, cruel and immoral is a good reason to change their beliefs. They have a curious choice: continue the obviously irrational prejudice against an innocent group of people (because the Bible tells you so!), or abandon these curious and arcane beliefs and actually live harmoniously together in society like real people do (or casually ignore the parts of the Bible that are clearly bat**** insane, and follow the parts that aren't. also acceptable).

While I see much beauty in the concept of religion, I think the issue of homosexuality is one which will keep me a firm atheist for a long time to come.

Please, show me where in the bible GOD says homosexuality is wrong. You have "prophets" saying this nonsense, interpreting what they think to be God's will for their own purposes.

Every single piece of scripture about homosexuality is from prophets, not God's word itself, and on top of that it's been replicated thousands of times by thousands of hands, reexamined and retranslated by everyone that's touched it. At a certain point you have to accept this minor mentions of homosexuality by a few prophets and just get to the big points of the bible. Not to mention the more clear cut passages about homosexuality lie in the Old Testament, a Testament Christians abandoned in favor of a "new wave" bible.

Let's hit the major point of the New Testament

Jesus: Love your neighbor. Treat others as you want to be treated.

I'm relatively sure that you, or me, neither of us want to have our lifestyle called an abomination for which we will burn in hell for all eternity. I didn't stone a prostitute the other day, either. I don't see anyone jumping all over my case for that one. Treat others as you want to be treated, and let "God" sort it out when we die. Stop imposing your f-ing retarded beliefs onto others, we're tired of hearing of it. Live it in your own house, or your own church, and leave everyone else the f*** alone.

Of course you haven't done any research. You never will, either, because deep down you are afraid that it will challenge your beliefs. Instead you choose to use your misguided understanding of evolution to convince yourself that it's not possible for homosexuality to be genetic.


If you had bothered to read the thread, you would have read the post where I linked to research for said genes. There is no single "gay gene," but is rather a cumulative effect of several genes as well as environmental factors.

Get your head out of your *** for once and think for yourself.

What's interesting is that Christianity is actually supposed to teach just the New Testament as a guide to live by, not the Old Testament. The Old Testament also says you should beat your children if they disobey you, and approves of selling one's daughter into slavery. You cannot ignore those points while accepting ones on homosexuality. You cannot. CAN NOT. CAN **** NOT.

i agree with emon recusant kirby and fishstickz. they have said basically everything i wanted to say.

which is why i almost always read the whole thread before posting.

Since when are anal fissures lethal? The most they do is cause extreme pain and itching. At least that's what I heard about with Bob.

i'm not comparing raping them to eating them after they're dead, i'm comparing raping them to how people treat them when they are still alive

PETA videos etc etc

also i am pretty sure both have been around for a pretty long time i mean they had to put restrictions on it in the bible ffs

I think it's also worth noting that most gay couples do not have anal sex on a regular basis, most don't do it at all.

Well, every single scripture itself comes from a prophet. Man is imperfect and so cannot understand the perfect word of God, and so requires a prophet to translate. The 'Holy Trinity' is a fairly complex concept theologically, which I don't fully understand. (This is also one of the major theological disputes between Christianity and Islam, as Muslims believe they can communicate directly with God and do not require Jesus).

Your critique of retranslation losing meaning over thousands of years is true not only for the parts that apply to homosexuality, but to the entire scripture as well.

It is Leviticus that concerns homosexuality (and all banned substances generally. You're not supposed to pick up sticks on a Saturday, either!):

Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

And later on, it also says:
"Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination"

I like how so many Christians are quite happy to ignore everything in Leviticus (the dietary guidelines, the customs and traditions) except the passage on homosexuality. If that isn't hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

On the whole, I have little to no problem with these little arcane rituals. I find them interesting. But the issue of homosexuality is one of the few issues where these little arcane rituals genuinely hurt innocent people, and that makes me angry. It doesn't matter if homosexuality is a 'choice' or not, there is no justification for such prejudice.

You can bleed to death from an anal fissure if it's bad enough.

Oh, I suppose. Maybe if your partner's penis is a knife .

thats how some people like its there choice so dont be hatin

Exactly.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!!!!!!!! WRONG MR DOUBLE STANDARD GUY.

See, you get to have sex as long as it's under the right circumstances, yet you expect gays to abstain forever. Are you a retard?

Yay for judging people from totally arbitrary moral standards!

Isn't that sorta like your mommy's bread and butter dude?

I mean seriously, isn't that what this thread is about?

Come on Obi, you've got to admit the Bible, especially the OT is full of stories about divinely sanctioned genocides, killing, raping and general unpleasantness. I've tried reading the Bible on several occasions but even in the NT it's nuts. Last time I opened a copy of the Gideon Bible left behind by the last guy in my room I ended up reading one of Paul's letters. He went on for ages about things like rules for women during menstruation and other crazy superstitions you'd expect from a goat herder 2000 years ago. Between those genocidal bits and the scatter shot strange rules I think Mort-Hog's description is valid. Unless of course you'd like to explain to us how moral it is to put homosexuals to death?

All moral standards are arbitrary. There is no objective moral standard. The Bible only reflects societal norms and traditions from thousands of years ago, which is decidedly at odds with contemorary society.

It all comes down to the intellectual clash of the Englightenment. Before then, it was perfectly normal to hold beliefs purely because they had been passed down to you. Why do you believe what you believe? Well, because we've believed it for hundreds of years!
The Enlightenment was the first movement that challenged this sort of thought process, and used reason, deduction and logic upon which to base beliefs. This movement created the society we know today.

Religious orthodoxy is harking back to a time before then (or just pretending it didn't happen). Most of the time, this clash of society is just silly (like Creationism) but sometimes it is downright dangerous (like the topic of homosexuality we're discussing), and while religion is still an important part of society we need genuine effort to preserve the free, liberal society we enjoy and not plunge into the dark ages again. I don't seriously think this is going to happen any time soon, the benefits of secular society are fairly obvious to the everyday person and far outstrip any desire for 'religious revival' and a return to orthodoxy. So I don't share Dawkins' view of religion being a threat or a danger to society as a whole, it is a threat to some minority groups (like homosexuals).

Sometimes I wish I could hug Mort.

Eww, that's so gay!

Hey, just remember it's not a sin if all you do is think about it and don't act on it!

I haven't read very much of this thread, but I find this part stupid and hilarious



Haha

It's only gay if the balls are touching.

So basically you admitted that your whole rant about cruel, unjust, and immoral is BS? Maybe "inefficient" is what you were looking for.