I like how it's suddenly okay to hide behind a thin veneer of "hate the sin but not the sinner" and just call it the homosexual's burden. But at least for heterosexuals their "sin" is not forever confined to sinfulness. They can sign a certificate and get married and then they can do the most rude and degrading things to each other imaginable and it's A-Okay with God.
Those terrible sinful gays meanwhile are condemned to a loveless life no matter what they do if they plan to avoid "sinning".

Well what do you want them to think? They're Christians, and God says in the bible that homosexuality is wrong. What do you want from them? To change THEIR beliefs? That's a bit hypocritical, don't you think?

They weren't born Christians.

Homosexuality is genetic. How can a gay man not be born gay?

Kirbs, I was referring to Recusant's post.

I know. My point stands. There isn't a religious gene, and even the bible explains to you that you're born a sinner without the knowledge of God. It's pretty reasonable to expect a person to alter their hateful prejudices, but pretty hateful and prejudice to ask a person to stop having sex with the same sex. That's not hypocrisy, it's decency.

How can you think people are born gay, end of story, but not think that people are born with a need or want for religion? Your post just makes me more sure you're being a bit hypocritical.

I used to think ******s should burn in hell, but that was until Steven showed me the beauty that exists in the love between two men.

Sexual Preference is not just a want/need.

And my real point is that it isn't hypocritical considering one is consenting sex between adults, and the other is hateful bigotry.

It's not genetic.

Think about it for a moment. How the **** would a 'gay gene' evolve? GAY SEX DOES NOT USUALLY RESULT IN PREGNANCY. It's environmental, just like everything else. The real solution, if parents don't want their kids to be gay, is to give them lots of porn.

Well Kirb's wikipedia article kicks my *** all over Tuesday.

That kind of logic doesn't make sense to begin with. We're all born killers, too. Men are generally born rapists. You weren't born a gamer. No one is born a fan of 69. The point is that homosexuality doesn't need to be natural in order to be okay. It doesn't hurt anyone at all.

That's kind of what I was saying.

Probably because maladaptive traits are only removed when a population is under direct selection. There are a plethora of genes in the genomes of all species that are counterproductive to reproduction, but they're still there.

Homosexuality occurs in animals all the time, and I'm pretty sure it's not because those animals didn't watch enough porn during puberty.

It's also not entirely genetic, which is easily shown with twin studies. But to think there isn't a strong genetic factor is preposterous.

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

I don't care much what they think provided they're not going to mess with other people's lives over it. I was simply annoyed with the way that a few people here were trying to act like it's not bigotry because "hey we just hate the sin" as if the rules in that book were in any way, shape or form fair upon that segment of society. Calling it simply another burden: having to live your life without being able to love someone and comparing it to people avoiding premarital sex or adultery (all situations that the Xtian heterosexual can do something about).

And then there are those who choose to ignore the strong evidence that homosexuality is genetic in favour of wishful thinking that it's a choice because they don't want to think that God could be that horrible to people. And therefore due to their wishful thinking believe it's fine to discriminate against homosexuals because it's just a choice!

You're talking about a group of people who consider defiant disbelief of their [God given] senses a virtue, and then call it Faith. Wishful thinking is a misdemeanor.

Reading comprehension is your friend.

JM

Emon told you what's up

After I said



So he fails.

I comprehended your post just fine. I didn't see your reply to Kirby's until after I wrote mine.

It doesn't change the fact that you were wrong, I was right, and that my post is still meaningful, and all you've done is belittle me instead of actually responding to my arguments.

Yeah, because I already admitted you're right and you keep going on being an ***. Learn to win with grace!

I'd like to move the discussion along and agree with Recusant. I think it's entirely evasive to argue "Homosexuality is fine as long as you don't do anything homosexual. See how this isn't bigotry?"

I agree, too. Recusant put it pretty well.

The question is why would they be there in the first place?




Yeh. It probably varies a lot from person to person, but the clincher is probably formative experience. You see strong genetic links to other traits such as alcoholism, but when it comes down to it, it comes down to how life has shaped them.

Ask a geneticist, I couldn't tell you exactly why.

And it's an uphill battle to fight genetic alcoholism, but you do it because it could kill you. The only deaths by homosexuality has been caused by a certain questionably genetic trait called homophobia with a little bit of idiot tossed on.

What about the tenancy for people to engage in pointless arguments with no common presuppositions?

Not everything that is genetic is inherited in a simple Mendelian manner. Sexual orientation is extremely complex, and is probably influenced by a large number of genes. While certain combinations may produce homosexuals, others will not, but all the alleles necessary will be retained throughout the generations. And some of them may actually be beneficial to reproduction. For instance, a certain variation in some hormone (completely hypothetical) may make a man a more caring parent if all other things are wild-type, but in combination with other changes (which may also be advantageous alone) will make him like other men.

Also, you can be born a homosexual even if it isn't completely genetic. The first son a woman bears is significantly less likely to be homosexual than later sons. This could support the idea of social conditioning as a cause (insomuch as birth order is relevant to psychology), but in light of other research, such as certain vole species where males who are next to females in the womb act in a feminine manner when mature, the influence of uterine hormones seems a much more likely explanation.

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread but I had some thoughts about your opening post.

I personally believe that some people are born that way and that some people choose to engage in that behavior.

I think the most disturbing debate is going to be when scientists actually discover the "gay gene", which I believe they will, there is bound to be a horrific and troubling new abortion debate.

What about people with overbearing mothers and a mommy dearest complex?

The question becomes 'If my baby has the gay gene, can I abort it for that reason?', which the pro-abortion side will eventually say 'no' too. The eventual conclusion is that the only people who can have an abortion are the ones who do it for no reason at all. There. Now there is no reason to have the debate.

This thread is almost as gay as JM's retarded indoor lawn.

So are you happy to allow homosexuals in the clergy?

Then Recusant, I agree with you. I don't think it's right for them to think that either. My point is, what they think isn't my business, just like what a homosexual thinks is none of my business. As long as the person isn't trying to push it on someone, just let them be who they want to be.

Sure he is, but only when they're the kind that vent their peen to butt frustration out on little boys.

Why? Would people consider aborting a child because it's gay?!

Oh, so basically, they're just "junk" traits that pop up due to variations that aren't removed very well?

I'm trying to figure out what's worse. Being aborted or being raised by horrific parents that would even consider doing such a thing.

Yeah, the fact that they knew about the gene would make them really tough on the kid.

"You've got the Gay son, but God hates abortion more than the gay, so instead we're going to beat you."