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Do you even really care at this point?
2016-09-27, 11:51 AM #41
Originally posted by Nikumubeki:
It will be my 4-year Christmas.



only four huh? HUH? huh? HUH? huh? HUH? huh? HUH? huh? HUH? huh? HUH? huh? HUH? huh? HUH? huh?
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2016-09-27, 4:09 PM #42
Went into the debate indifferent not really expecting much. Was actually fairly entertained most of the time. Some random things: I couldn't help but zone out at times when Hillary talked. Really expected Hillary to come across better as I believed her knowledge and command of facts would positively contrast with Trump's horrendous debate style. I was left with the impression that his horrendous style actually works against a horrendous person. Was impressed that Trump didn't actually try to come across as literate. Thought it was awesome that they just said, "**** it, call it 'the cyber.'"
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-09-27, 4:15 PM #43
I was impressed that Trump admitted he doesn't pay federal income tax.
2016-09-27, 4:24 PM #44
Such a lost opportunity to point out the flaws with the tax code. I mean, seriously, if he's following the law and ends up paying zero federal income tax the problem isn't him.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-09-27, 4:25 PM #45
At least not in a direct sense.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-09-27, 4:28 PM #46
He's under massive audit so I think the jury's still out on whether it's legal or not.

There is an AMT that's supposed to prevent this kind of thing, you know.
2016-09-27, 4:39 PM #47
Given the political heat around billionaires evading taxes, I would like to imagine last night will be Trumps 47% moment. But I doubt it.
2016-09-27, 4:47 PM #48
Who knows, really? You know I'm no Trump supporter so if he's evading taxes I'm not going to defend him. He probably get audited every year anyway. I've actually always been torn on the subject of whether or not people should release their personal records or, rather, whether or not they should be shamed into it. All of the personal information contained in tax records, I don't even like having to send that to the IRS let alone release it to the nation. Anyways, tangent thought not representative of how I feel about Trump specifically.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-09-27, 5:01 PM #49
The Billionaire are very private about their money. A law requiring them to disclose their assets goes against their culture.
2016-09-27, 5:04 PM #50
The Canadian IRS (CRA) refuses to crack down on tuhao/fuerdai money laundering and undeclared income because they're worried about being called racist, to the point that foreign money has completely destroyed the entire national economy of Canada. Count your ****ing blessings that the IRS gives a ****.
2016-09-27, 6:26 PM #51
I don't get how everyone thinks Hillary isn't part of the "rich" anyway. She and her husband made $142 million between 2007 and 2014. She's just as "1%" as Trump. Her effective federal tax rate was ~31% during that time. Last year they made over $10 million with about the same tax rate. She's so far beyond even her running mate, which most people would consider "rich" with an income of >$300k last year.

I think it would be great if someone could figure out a way to have billionaires and large corporations pay their fair share. But don't think Trump is alone in dodging taxes. Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, etc., all the huge companies across the country are experts at dodging taxes and lobbying congresspeople like Hillary for laws that continue to allow it.

They're both crooked.
2016-09-27, 7:47 PM #52
To be honest I look at income as property and I believe property tax to be immoral. I don't get corporate taxation either as it's just passed along to their customers as a cost of doing business. From my perspective I don't see any taxation other than some sort of sales/consumption tax as being the fairest.

My state of citizenship has a sales tax and no income tax. My mother is always asking what our sales tax on food is and I say the same as everything else. She remembers how in Washington food was not taxed so she thinks it's wrong to be taxed at the same rate as other things. I always felt like everybody has to buy food so everybody pays tax. Seems fair.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-09-27, 10:27 PM #53
The consumer share of corporate income tax is a complicated discussion, but TL;DR no it isn't just passed along to customers. Part of it is, but outside of the worst monopolies it is almost entirely extracted from corporate profits.

Corporate income taxes are also ****ing great, but the reason why is a long discussion. But TL;DR they punish unproductive uses of profit like sitting on liquid cash because they're too stupid to invest it in anything (Apple). Big tech companies could repatriate their foreign profits tomorrow, 87% tax free, if they invested that money in equipment or training. But they don't want to, they would rather sit on it forever, tax free. If the IRS was allowed to put the screws to Apple, and tax their idle foreign cash, there'd be a new iPhone factory in PA by next god damn week.

Sales taxes are practically the most economically and socially harmful form of taxation ever tried, and a complete explanation of why is also titled "Introduction to Macroeconomics" and available at your local university. But TL;DR sales taxes dampen demand across the board, causing general economic contraction over the long run, and the taxes are ineffective at raising revenue because they are disproportionately paid by the poorest people, and rich peoples expenses do not increase proportionately. Like trickle down and flat taxes, they are bad ideas sold to suckers by rich people who just don't want to contribute anything back to society.

Broadly, you are thinking about income tax all wrong. The government doesn't have to tax your income, they could just as easily pass a tariff or print money (a kind of flat tax applied through inflation). But, instead they nominally withhold pay. Do you know what income taxes offer that no other solution does? It's not just a revenue source, it's a huge Swiss Army knife for manipulating the macroeconomy.

Don't think of it like they're taking your money. As long as everybody is paying the taxes they owe, it is a nominal income reduction only (I.e. if everyone has 30% less money, then prices must decrease by 30%). Instead, think of it like an income graduated grant that you must apply for. In a real accounting sense, income tax deductions reward you for holding stocks for at least 6 months, for moving closer to your job, for buying new power tools. All of these things has positive results in the macro economy. When you get rid of income tax, you lose these real rewards in exchange for a slight nominal reward (in other words, that extra 30% is $bull**** because everybody else has +30% too)
2016-09-27, 10:40 PM #54
basically it's the same problem here that the republicans/monetarists have, full stop not understanding the difference between nominal (number of dollars you have) and real (how much **** you can buy).

If everybody pays 30%, to amount of **** you can buy is unchanged.
If you pay 30% and rich people pay 60%, the amount of **** you can buy increases.

If **** costs 10% more (after equilibrium), you can only afford 91% as much ****, while the rich can afford the same amount of ****.

The number of dollars you have is meaningless. What matters is how big a share of the whole economy you hold. So when a rich guy pays $0 tax, well - he's cheating. He's stealing from YOU, because you pay income tax, and he doesn't, so he has a bigger share than he is supposed to. And because of that, you can't afford to buy as much stuff as you otherwise would be able.
2016-09-27, 11:39 PM #55
Economics, taxes, etc. is a bit like evolution or climate change. The average person doesn't understand how any of these "systems" work, & for various reasons they don't learn about them, so they just side with their tribe & wallow in the "common sense" talking points. This phenomenon exists on both the right & "left", which is evidenced by trickle-downers on the right & anti-GMO/vaccers on the left. Even the vast majority of those persons that are on the correct side of an issue largely take it on a sort of faith, in either persons they respect, or in a system that they believe is functional (e.g. the scientific method), instead of attempting to become relatively informed. While I think that the right-wing in this country has a vested interest in not teaching actual biology, economics, etc. in school, I can't help but feel that the left hasn't pushed hard enough to make this happen. If one of our priorities isn't to produce an informed electorate of life-long learners, then we're essentially aiming for failure.
? :)
2016-09-28, 12:04 AM #56
Worse on the right is monetarism, which has the scientific rigor and success rate of a rain dance.
2016-09-28, 9:25 AM #57
Funny you brought up Washington. Yeah, we don't have sales tax on non-junk, non-prepared food. However, we have sales tax on everything else. We have gas tax. We have high property tax. We have higher tax on new _and_ used vehicle sales. We have yearly car tab taxes. We have taxes on all our utilities. About the only tax we don't have is state income tax, but every year they're trying to add that, too. Not replace the other taxes we pay with income tax, but rather add income tax in addition to all the other taxes. I find the whole situation more than disturbing because for every different kind of tax we have different taxing authorities, management, and government workers. I'd be all for a state income tax if they'd remove _all other taxes_.
2016-09-28, 10:22 AM #58
Originally posted by Mentat:
If one of our priorities isn't to produce an informed electorate of life-long learners, then we're essentially aiming for failure.


It would help if people learned to view education as a thing that's always going on, rather than a thing you do once and finish. Americans tend to do this; "If I watch these 100 films I'll be a film buff", "If I get a college degree I'll be educated", there's really not a coherent "end point" to being a useful and developing person.

Originally posted by Jon`C:
Worse on the right is monetarism, which has the scientific rigor and success rate of a rain dance.


That's Friedman's shtick right?
2016-09-28, 11:10 AM #59
Trump's tax admission was pretty interesting, I guess he's trying to appeal to people who believe in minimalist government and would evade taxes if they could. Or who knows. It's not like I can blame him for choosing to keep his money, in his own words "it's smart", but I'd rather have a politician who wants to take that money from people like Trump.

The only thing I noticed from Clinton was her anti-rich rhetoric she took from Sanders campaign, she seemed to be appealing directly to the untraditional progressive vote.
2016-09-28, 8:06 PM #60
Your country is stuffed with as many morons as stereotypes would have you believe, apparently.
nope.
2016-09-28, 10:00 PM #61
Yes. Trump has popular support.
2016-09-29, 2:49 AM #62
Originally posted by Reid:
Trump's tax admission was pretty interesting, I guess he's trying to appeal to people who believe in minimalist government and would evade taxes if they could. Or who knows. It's not like I can blame him for choosing to keep his money, in his own words "it's smart", but I'd rather have a politician who wants to take that money from people like Trump.

It's difficult to blame individuals for capitalizing on the shortcomings of a system when the system itself permits them to do so. However, I think it's valid to criticize these individuals for supporting the flaws in a system, despite the harm it causes, merely because it benefits them. This is why non-sociopaths prefer Buffet & Gates over Shkreli & Trump.
? :)
2016-09-29, 2:50 AM #63
Originally posted by Baconfish:
Your country is stuffed with as many morons as stereotypes would have you believe, apparently.

After living in Europe for +5 years, I'm no longer certain that the U.S. is unique in this respect.
? :)
2016-09-29, 10:26 AM #64
Originally posted by Mentat:
After living in Europe for +5 years, I'm no longer certain that the U.S. is unique in this respect.

It's certainly not.

At least they don't have a full on National Front type party. [Also I don't remember writing that last post.]
nope.
2016-09-29, 3:07 PM #65
Was there some separate admission somewhere other than the, "that makes me smart?" I'm just curious because that really wasn't an admission. If I remember right Hillary said she suspected it's because he hasn't paid any taxes like what was shown on some other returns she referenced. To be honest, about the only thing I'm interested in for all of these fat cats is their charitable giving. If he legally pays an effective negative rate of taxation I'm bothered less than if his charitable giving is single digit which I suspect it is. In addition I suspect his charitable foundations are at least as corrupt as hers.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-09-29, 7:34 PM #66
Originally posted by Baconfish:
It's certainly not.

At least they don't have a full on National Front type party. [Also I don't remember writing that last post.]


It's called the GOP.
2016-09-30, 12:48 PM #67
:rolleyes:
nope.
2016-09-30, 2:29 PM #68
The US has a nazi party, Marxist-Leninist, Libertarian, Green, the whole she-bang. But third parties for better or worse are always marginalized. That means neo-nazis tend to vote for one of the mainstream parties, and yes despite your eyeroll emoticon that party tends to be the GOP.

In case you didn't notice, the GOP candidate wants to ban Muslim immigration.
2016-09-30, 2:37 PM #69
And if that's true and he does want to ban Muslim immigration, why do you think that is?

Perhaps a better question would be under what circumstances do you feel immigration should be generally allowed or encouraged?
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-09-30, 6:25 PM #70
Originally posted by Wookie06:
And if that's true and he does want to ban Muslim immigration, why do you think that is?
To win the racist vote?

Quote:
Perhaps a better question would be under what circumstances do you feel immigration should be generally allowed or encouraged?
Maybe a good start is welcoming families who are fleeing from what most informed modern commentators are calling a second holocaust?

Or maybe admit that Americas biggest terror problem is domestic, not from immigrants, and that no amount of racism or republicanism is going to make banning foreign muslims solve any of your problems.
2016-09-30, 10:30 PM #71
Originally posted by Mentat:
It's difficult to blame individuals for capitalizing on the shortcomings of a system when the system itself permits them to do so. However, I think it's valid to criticize these individuals for supporting the flaws in a system, despite the harm it causes, merely because it benefits them. This is why non-sociopaths prefer Buffet & Gates over Shkreli & Trump.

On the level of moral criticism, yeah Trump is a sack of ****.
2016-10-01, 7:41 AM #72
Originally posted by Jon`C:
To win the racist vote?

Maybe a good start is welcoming families who are fleeing from what most informed modern commentators are calling a second holocaust?

Or maybe admit that Americas biggest terror problem is domestic, not from immigrants, and that no amount of racism or republicanism is going to make banning foreign muslims solve any of your problems.


Interesting. Would you agree that, generally speaking, many European countries have been much more liberal with regards to accepting refugees and immigrants from predominantly Islamist countries and would you categorize their terror problems as primarily domestic and, if so, how do define "domestic" in this regard?
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-10-01, 11:38 AM #73
Hint: The vast majority of America's terrorists are white men.
>>untie shoes
2016-10-01, 2:13 PM #74
No you are.
TAKES HINTS JUST FINE, STILL DOESN'T CARE
2016-10-01, 2:22 PM #75
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Interesting. Would you agree that, generally speaking, many European countries have been much more liberal with regards to accepting refugees and immigrants from predominantly Islamist countries and would you categorize their terror problems as primarily domestic and, if so, how do define "domestic" in this regard?


A common view on the left is this: a moral responsibility falls on western countries to accept refugees, first because of the scale and severity of the humanitarian crisis brought on by the Syrian Civil War, and also because they have the capacity to do something about it. There is also a stronger view that western countries in particular are responsible for accepting refugees because of their involvement in the Iraq War, i.e., because they produced the conditions that led to Syrian Civil War and ISIS in the first place. Someone who believes that might think that America's response to the crisis is especially egregious compared to other countries, given that it has accepted only 10,000 refugees in the past year (very little compared to other countries), despite being the architect of the invasion of Iraq.

Frequently, people more firmly on the left don't think of the refugee problem and terrorism as related issues. The argument might go something like this: because it's "racist" or "Islamophobic" to assert that Muslims are any more likely to be terrorists than anyone else, the idea that accepting refugees is a security issue at all is merely the result of prejudice. A less extreme view argues that America has so many counter-terrorism and intelligence resources that it is very well equipped to identify the statistically insignificant number of refugees who may take advantage of their residence in the United States and commit terrorist acts, and to prevent them from entering the country (some might even argue that America is better equipped than the European countries that have been more generous towards refugees).

Now, to respond to the question more directly. Islamic terrorism in the Americas and in Europe are both domestic and international. Many -- but not all -- of those who commit acts of terror in western countries are natural born or naturalized citizens of those countries, who live in them and prepare attacks in them. Thus, Islamic terrorism is domestic in the sense that counter-terrorism measures that might prevent these attacks frequently involve surveillance of people who live "here". But it's also international in the sense that terrorists typically affiliate themselves with international terrorist organizations, ideologies and movements, and those organizations frequently claim such attacks as their own, even if they often don't provide operational support or guidance to the agents of the attacks. (And we're leaving aside that I'm conflating the more broad "terrorism" here with "Islamic terrorism".)

Undoubtedly, Europe's policy towards refugees and its porous borders increase the capacity of terrorist organizations to carry out attacks on European countries is a highly politicized. Concerns of those on the right aren't entirely baseless: recall that some among those involved in the Paris attacks last November used a stolen Syrian passport to pose as a refugee (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world/europe/paris-attacks-shift-europes-migrant-focus-to-security.html?_r=0), and that the perpetuators of Boston Marathon bombing had received asylum to live in the US (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/details-emerge-on-suspected-boston-bombers/2013/04/19/ef2c2566-a8e4-11e2-a8e2-5b98cb59187f_story.html). But, as is typical in American politics, political discussions on this issue, have nothing to do with policy. Rather, it's just another culture war: that is, it's ultimately based on defending and attacking premises, which are unfalsifiable and cannot be definitively justified empirically, and allegiance to which forms a basis of one's political identity. In this instance, the central belief is whether or not refugees are good people or not, and, as a corollary, whether or not Islam is morally corrupting.
former entrepreneur
2016-10-01, 5:49 PM #76
Sigh. It's not about Islam.

The vast majority of these people are innocent. We aren't just talking about saving good people, we are talking about saving a culture from destruction at the hands of a barbarian horde. If that doesn't sound like it's worth trading 0.000001% increased personal risk, then you are a bad person and a bad Christian and you are letting the terrorists win.

That's what it's about.

Jesus is ashamed of you.
2016-10-02, 2:12 PM #77
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The US has a nazi party, Marxist-Leninist, Libertarian, Green, the whole she-bang. But third parties for better or worse are always marginalized. That means neo-nazis tend to vote for one of the mainstream parties, and yes despite your eyeroll emoticon that party tends to be the GOP.

In case you didn't notice, the GOP candidate wants to ban Muslim immigration.

What is flippancy?
nope.
2016-10-02, 2:41 PM #78
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Jesus is ashamed of you.


Probably. I'm Jewish!
former entrepreneur
2016-10-03, 6:38 AM #79
The reason Daesh is conducting terror attacks in e.g. Europe while posing as refugees is to make foreign countries close their borders. Then the fleeing refugees will have nowhere else to go, and will be forced to join Daesh. Your irrational fear of a basically impossible death literally makes Daesh stronger. In other words, while the concerns of the right are not baseless, making policy based on those concerns will literally let the terrorists win.

That is the "common view" of the left. You don't have to do mental gymnastics about the Iraq War or Homeland Security to understand why people think saving a culture is the moral thing to do, or that starving Daesh of recruits is the most effective way of fighting them. Nobody on the left believes that it won't result in some additional terrorism, but people on the left are willing to risk death to stand up for their beliefs. What would American conservatives risk dying for, I wonder?

But this is completely off topic, anyway. Most American terorrists are deranged white people. Jared Lee Loughner was a "registered independent" (basically how deranged internet people spell "Republican"); McVeigh and Nichols were anti-government (Republican); Kaczynski was anarchist and anti-leftist (Republican); Rudolph was anti-gay and anti-abortion (Republican); Wade Michael Page was a white supremacist (Republican); there's been too much anti-abortion terrorism to count (all Republicans).

You might think I'm cherry picking, but I'm not. It's just way easier to find rightist white terrorists than pretty much any other. It seems the real problem in the US is that terrorism is only newsworthy when it's not a white Republican doing it.
2016-10-03, 6:51 AM #80
Jesus H. Martinez, mechanico automobilo extraordinario, is still proud of you, Eversor.
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
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