This perfectly sums up how I felt. This movie is so utterly bad, I feel like watching the Holiday Special to watch something good with the Star Wars label on it. I really pity the HISHE crew, because they'd have to make one almost as long as the movie itself to nitpick every plot hole.

I don't care that the movie wasn't anything I thought it would be. I liked the Casino setting (didn't like the scenes), I didn't mind Luke's PTSD. I can live with Snoke being dispensed before we find out why that is such a big deal. But the whole execution of the movie was just terrible.

It really killed off Disney's Star Wars for me. Although I am carefully optimistic for Solo, because I liked Rogue One. I'll have to see if I can fit it into my head canon although it condradicts the other established EU-versions.

It's not a mystery if you guys don't have any clue either, Disney. It's a plot hole.

I wonder how these big name producers manage to turn out such crap. Suicide Squad, Batman vs Superman, apparently some editing/pacing problems with TLJ

Haven't they figured this **** out by now?

Another German's reaction to The Last Jedi:

JJ Abrams loves setting up mysteries that are never meant to be answered. Do you want every tiny detail explained? Do you want the movie to hold your hand the whole way?

Also, lol to being mad that "all the characters" in the casino scene were white. Have you ever seen the Empire?

I'm glad they went off the beaten path and didn't write a fan fiction.

**** Porgs! Get em up outta here! Porgs alone would have been ok, but Porgs + Crystal Foxes + Fennec Horses + Blubber Nuns was too much.

TOO MANY ALIENS IN STAR WARS

is that what you thinking i'm saying mr. beggar

no not really. i just thought it was funny to yell.

TOO MUCH TALKING ABOUT THE FORCE IN MY STAR WARS. PLEASE ONLY BOBO FETT.

er

More mb fat!

yes put me in star wars so i can make you nerds mad

a bumbling CGI mb fumbling with a bowl of squeaky frogs he's delivering to a reclining Hutt covered in CGI creatures every frame is so dense, there's so much going on

hell yeah i love soup

Come now, really? :/

Yes really. Abrams has talked at length about his fascinations with mysteries. They give us fun things to think about. Does a mystery NEED a payoff though? I don't think so.

I doubt anyone would disagree that unanswered questions and unsolved mysteries are intriguing, fascinating, and often part of strong worldbuilding in a sci fi universe. But it can be done poorly, and I wouldn't put Abrams' in the "people who do it best" category, despite his very obvious interest in mysteries.

"How did so-and-so happen to be in the right place at the right time" or "why did so-and-so not reveal what they knew, thus saving the other characters tons of effort" etc., which are the types of things Jon and ECHOMAN are (I think, probably, maybe) talking about, are certainly not the super engrossing kind of mysteries I would hope for.

The good **** is "what was the nature of that cave Rey went into" or "what happened to the other Jedi students Kylo took with him" etc. I would be perfectly happy to never know the answers, though I would also get another thrill if they drop some intimation or tantalizing hint re: Knights of Ren in the next movie.

No, I don't think he is either. A lot of negative reviews I'm seeing are people upset that mysteries didn't get the pay off deserved. I may have been conflating some of that with what w

As for the right time and place, there was nothing that felt particularly like a deus ex machina. In fact, it seemed like it was pretty strongly trying to show that heroic "saves the day" moments can and do fail. Why wouldn't plans be told? To me the simpler option is "there is a plan and this other person doesn't know it." That's what I was taking Jon as saying was a plot hole.

I actually ended up liking the Porgs the most because, in a movie with way too many helpful cute Disney animals, the Porgs acted the most like actual animals (i.e. stupid and useless).

The crystal foxes thing would have worked fine if they just followed the fleeing animals--they didn't need to have one that kept stopping and pointing the way like Lassie. (Notwithstanding the mystery of how they built a supposedly secure secret base in a cave without noticing a very large exit tunnel)

Most of the things people are thinking are plot holes actually aren't. For example, the first order could certainly have sent out lighter attack ships or cut them off with a short hyperspace jump, but there was no need too. When they were doing was working, and splitting their forces to engage faster would only have resulted in unnecessary losses.

Ray is strong, not well trained. The fact that she has been able to so quickly develop her raw strength is a major plot point in her charter arc that has been acknowledged by multiple characters. Even so, we have no indication that she can even block blaster fire with a light-saber. She can move rocks, and she pulled off a mind trick, and that's about it. It looks like they are giving the idea that some powers are pretty inherent to a force user, but others require skill and knowledge. Which makes sense, because it's like the difference between a strong guy with a club and and expert fencer. So far Rey has been nothing but bad ideas and impulsive decisions that result in failure. She's strong, but for the most part, it isn't getting her anywhere.

It’s okay if writers don’t explain exactly why something is happening, as long as they understand why it’s happening. That goes for the big mysteries like who Snoke is, and even the little questions like why that low rent Yoda had Luke’s lightsaber. Knowing why that stuff happened and throwing it into a design bible means the writers can keep track of plot threads, keep the story consistent, and most importantly avoid playing up something that doesn’t matter.

This is exactly why JJ Abrams’ mystery stuff doesn’t pay off, by the way. This is the real reason people complain about it. Because he doesn’t ever actually build his worlds. He wings it. He’s admitted so. He comes up with a bunch of scenes and events that he wants to happen and glues them together with coincidence. JJ Abrams doesn’t write in questions that are never meant to be answered, he writes in random plot threads and forgets to ever use them. This narrative flim-flammery was novel once (Lost) and passable for a TV serial (Fringe), but it doesn’t work for a major franchise and has no place here.

That’s why Rey’s gonna turn out to be a nobody. Because it was never planned; JJ Abrams hinted at her ~mysterious origin~ without any idea about what that origin actually is, and they’re gonna tease it and tease it until every interesting possibility has been exhausted.

The assertion that they didn't think about a characters origins (especially for a movie of this scale) is silly. Not explaining a characters origins is fine. Fans are gonna come up with theories, and that's also fine. Maybe JJ didn't have a full understanding of who she is, but even that gives Rian a chance to add to that story.

JJ Abrams had no ****in clue dude.



Yeah, I mean, it’s great that this guy was given the freedom to add to the story, but it doesn’t change the fact that Episode 7 established a ~mysterious origin~ without anybody ever bothering to come up with what that origin might have been. It was just another Abramsesque dangling plot thread that fortunately someone remembered to follow up on, unlike the other hundred or so mysterious coincidences that nobody ever will.

I’m not asking to know everything, I’m asking for world builders to do their god damn jobs.

Ah yeah, Disney said "here are the keys to star wars. wing it" She has an unknown and you don't find out what it is in TFA. It's not JJ's fault you're taking it to mean there should be a grandiose payoff.

Agreed.

It always confuses me when they make animals (or alien species that are definitely being presented as animalistic and of, like, cow-level intelligence) give significant glances and convey very human emotional responses. They did that a litttttttle bit in this movie w/ the racehorse things. Not a big deal, but for some reason I wish that the Porg that screamed w/ Chewbacca hadn't been facing out of the cockpit with him, and had just been like, standing there looking at Chewbacca doing it.

Disney handed the keys to a guy whose career was literally built on winging it.

And yes, it is JJ’s fault for making the audience expect a payoff, because that is exactly what he wants them to expect. This is how he hooks an audience, by playing up go-nowhere plot threads.

Here’s your once a decade reminder that they literally had to reboot Fringe halfway through because the story was getting too clogged up with ~mysteries~.

I thought the movie started a bit rocky, was at its best in the middle, and then ended... ok, but just went on a little too long.

The tone felt a bit all over the map in the first third, though some moments were genuinely affecting. The whole casino sidequest felt very odd, like it was from another movie. I like Rose just fine, and am glad she and Finn had ~stuff to do~ but so much of that stuff felt like a distraction. I also didn't really get much out of the Rey/Luke section where he's just rebuffing her constantly. The slice-of-life stuff re: Luke's hermitage was kinda neat, though.

The middle section, where Luke talks to Rey about Kylo, and about the nature of the Force, was good. Also liked Rey's conversations with Kylo... them antagonizing each other, and also trying to tempt each other in both subtle and unsubtle ways was nice, especially as mixed feelings in Kylo arose alongside Rey's softening attitude toward him. The confrontation with Snoke, also, I really enjoyed. Glad they killed him, he was boring and one-dimensional, without the maniacal energy that elevated Palpatine above his one-dimensionality. The fight scene in the throne room was super stylish, visually, and the fight choreography was some of the best from any lightsaber battle in SW. Also, because I'm a simpleton, I appreciated the sort of jaw-dropping impact that the destruction of the Super Star Destroyer had. That was a beautiful sequence.

I wish the movie had ended there. I liked some of the stuff with Luke at the end, but wish that had been combined with the flight from the First Order fleet more directly. It felt weird to go from this high stakes chase, culminating in that climactic jump to lightspeed and Our Heroes' escape, only to land on the planet and be like "nice, ok, now let's reset to this new scenario, with basically the same premise, same stakes, etc." The movie was long, and if it'd had one climactic final confrontation instead of 2, wouldn't have felt like it stuttered and dragged at the end.

A side point: Why did Finn have to undergo the exact same character arc he did in the previous movie? He just wants out, wants his freedom, is he a coward, maybe, maybe not, but gosh, he starts believing, he starts buying into the rebellion, he meets comrades who he cares about, and then, by god, he chooses to sacrifice his life to save them. At which point that decision is undercut by Rose knocking him out of his flight path and preventing him from destroying the superlaser, after which she says the worst line of dialogue in the movie (paraphrasing here): "We can't win by destroying things we hate, only by saving things we love." Rose, the guy was doing something with the specific purpose of saving the people and cause he loved.

I got flashbacks to Commander Shepard's awful line when asked what should be done to combat the Reapers at the beginning of Mass Effect 3: "This isn't about strategy or tactics, it's about survival!"

Anyway, overall I did quite enjoy the movie.

I think his arc in the first movie was from running away, to coming back to save Rey specifically, and his arc in this movie was from running away to save Rey specifically, to fighting for the resistance altogether. But it definitely FELT like a retread, and I felt disappointed in him for that.

Also definitely agree that Rose crashing him out of the way was dumb--wasn't he doing what they'd flown out there to do in the first place? Did their saltmobiles even have weapons? Unless we were supposed to think he had no chance of stopping the cannon, she would have doomed the Resistance if it weren't for the magical foxes. So isn't she doing the same thing she zapped Finn for doing at the beginning of the movie?

p.s. I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought that Shepard line was one of the worst things ever, haha

Yeah, he must have a career for a reason then!



You misunderstand. I'm saying it's on you for being invested to the point you're mad about it. Sometimes things don't pay off. That's life.



Oh wow wait do u not like JJ or something

I really want to see it again for this sequence. I can't tell if it's odd because it doesn't fit, or because it's a tonal difference from the Star Wars we know. It does feel like it's setting up something for 9 though.


Those scenes were beautiful. I loved the set design of the throne room. I especially loved the embers floating around them at the end. The destruction of the Destroyer was painterly. I also really really enjoyed the use of sound in the movie, and the lack of it at that moment was incredible.



Yeah I can see that. They feel like stages for the people involved in the scenarios. I'll have to think on this one! I may have been distracted by how beautiful the planets surface was.

I enjoyed the movie, and I love Rian Johnsons work. I want to be critical of it so I can learn from it for my own things. I am supremely bummed by the internet/troll reaction to it though.

Yeah, because his shows are generally entertaining and you can never predict where the story will go. He’s also extremely competent at making movies and TV shows in a technical sense. But that doesn’t mean his formula is the right one for Star Wars.

Orrrrrrr it’s just bad writing??

Because according to you, Disney is saying “ha ha **** you for caring about our story”, and that really doesn’t seem like something they would do.

I have seen a lot of his work and I consider myself a fan, at least enough to understand the way he approaches making movies and TV shows and how that approach is the wrong one for Star Wars.

You seem a lot more emotionally invested in the fact that I dislike TFA and JJ Abrams’ approach than I am in disliking them. Dunno why.

~all criticism i disagree with is trolling~

I was wondering why the casino scenes reminded me of something I watched long ago; they were like the sweepstakes cruise setting of The Fifth Element!

So a chance was taken


Oh no, you caught me in one of your infalliable logic traps!



You're twisting my words. You can absolutely care about a story and have it make a turn where you're not expecting.


ok sure!


You took my trolls comment to mean you then? For the record, I was referring tweets I had seen. I'd love to have a critical talk on the movie, I just think your comments so far have been anything but insightful.

I think he did a fine job with this, and I wish we could get a true insight into how much studio influence there was in the final product (I mean, I'm guessing a ****-ton) so it's hard to say how much of my criticisms are his fault, the writers' faults, etc. I'm very interested to see what he does with a sideline Star Wars story. I hope he gets super ****ing weird with it. I hope they let him.

Well no, not really. The thing about JJ Abrams is that he’s really good at getting people emotionally invested in his stories and unanswered questions. This was the whole reason Lost took off. If you’re trying to hook people on a new series you could do a lot worse than hire JJ Abrams to run it.

The problem is when you forget what happened when Lost ended. I never watched that particular show, but I do remember people got epically salty. And really that’s the ultimate fate of all stories Abrams develops, because the way he works generates a lot of extremely obvious loose ends that cannot and will not ever get resolved.

I’m not criticizing the outcome, I’m criticizing the fact that they didn’t plan for that outcome from the beginning.

For example, TFA had visions of Rey’s childhood. It showed her watching a ship leave the planet without her, ostensibly with her family onboard. She didn’t want to leave Jakku because she was convinced that her parents were going to come back for her. That all ended up being a red herring, which is fine. But when they filmed those sequences they didn’t know that. They were just throwing in some random crap, maybe to use in the future, maybe not.

And that’s 100% purestrain JJ Abrams right there. He’s absolutely better at his job than George Lucas, but at least Lucas had the broad strokes of the first six movies in mind before writing them. These new people don’t.



Well I haven’t seen the new movie, and I’m certainly not going to pay money to see it after the last one, so I’m not going to criticize it. I’ve only been criticizing TFA.

Dunno what your standard for insightful is, but apparently I have more insights into the way JJ Abrams works so I’m not sure why that doesn’t count. But whatever.

Kinda sounds a bit like Steven Moffat and Sherlock. Spent a bunch of time building up a conflict between Moriarty and Sherlock, Moriarty forces Sherlock to "commit suicide", but he actually doesn't and lives. It was a pretty big mystery since, like, the best friend of Sherlock watched the whole thing happen, we the audience watched the whole thing happen, the trailers for the next season teasered it, and it's a plotline in a Sherlock Holmes story, where everything is always explained. Well the next two season came out and they never explained it. Even worse, they literally made scenes making fun of the fans of the show for coming up with theories explaining it and for wanting it explained.

They took the core idea of Sherlock, rational explanations for mysterious events, and said **** you to the audience for wanting the mystery resolved.

It's ****, writers who do that are ****, and the people making these things suck. Well, okay, they don't, they do have real technical skills, but they're too insular and immune to real criticism and outside influence.

Also, watching TFA right now and am watching TLJ later in theaters. Will probably respond back later if I'm not too tired to post the opinions you're definitely all on the edge of your seats for.

please Reid I'm not breathin until