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ForumsDiscussion Forum → The Last Jedi
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The Last Jedi
2017-12-25, 5:22 PM #161
Lol, in TFA the good guys hold up Phasma (silver stormtrooper lady) but in TFA we find her armor actually deflect blasters, so.. nice plot hole, did the writers even watch the movie they were writing a sequel to?
2017-12-25, 6:17 PM #162
Reid my boy they clearly upgraded that armor between the films, and it would have been a waste of screen time to mention this, and did you ever stop to consider that the biggest plot hole is in yuor'e brain??
2017-12-25, 7:07 PM #163
Originally posted by saberopus:
Reid my boy they clearly upgraded that armor between the films, and it would have been a waste of screen time to mention this, and did you ever stop to consider that the biggest plot hole is in yuor'e brain??


Oh yeah, I forgot about the plot they didn't show! How could anyone criticize a movie when they don't know about the plot that's not in the movie. It's not like that was the same criticism peope made of TPM or anything..
2017-12-25, 10:51 PM #164
I assumed that a lot of what's unexplained in the movies is explained in the comic books that have been released Disney said the old EU was no longer canon. Want to know why C3PO has a red arm in TFA? Or how Luke's light saber was recovered from Bespin? It's probably all in some comic book, along with material that fills in a lot of other plot holes.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-25, 11:26 PM #165
I'm pretty sure C-3PO has a red arm in TFA so the action figure looks different, Eversor.
2017-12-26, 12:48 AM #166
I'm sure that's true too. No doubt, it's all about merchandising: now they can sell us an action figure and comic books which are both tied in with the new movies.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/so-now-we-know-how-c-3po-got-his-red-arm-in-the-force-a-1770741572
former entrepreneur
2017-12-26, 1:20 AM #167
Okay, here's something. Part way through the movie, Luke's convinced that the Jedi Order needs to end. He's resolved that he will be the last Jedi. And so he decides that he needs to destroy the sacred scriptures of the Jedi religion. And we have a scene where he does that. So he's about to go into the tree where the books are kept, but then he hesitates. He's not sure he can bring himself to do it, because he's not sure it's the right thing to do, to destroy a thousands year old tradition. And, as we watch, with all our attachments to the Jedi, we aren't sure whether it's the right thing for him to do.

Then Yoda comes. He laughs to himself as Luke hesitates, and then summons lightning from the sky to destroy the texts and the temple. If we didn't know before, we know now: Luke was wrong to hesitate. The texts should be destroyed. They're useless, after all, as Yoda later tells him (and we can assume that Yoda speaks on behalf of the screenwriter). And Luke, it turns out, hasn't even read them! They're pointless legends that have nothing to tell us about anything, and don't help us become more adept at using the force (let's leave aside how this whole scene is a swipe against religion). In fact, we don't even need teachers. So it sounds like the Jedi -- as an institution, as a religion -- needs to end. It's time: it doesn't mean that there will be no force adept people. It just means that this particular order, this religion, no longer serves a purpose. Rey may become force adept, and she may become a very important person in the galaxy, but she won't be a Jedi.

But then, at the end of the movie, we get something that clashes with this story. At the end of the movie, when fighting Kylo Ren, Luke says that he won't be the last Jedi. No: Rey will continue the tradition. But why? Does the scene we saw before mean nothing? Or does he actually mean what he says, and correctly predicts that she actually become a Jedi (rather than start her own religion, or be some kind of non-denominational light force user)? But that would be ridiculous! If she will in fact become a Jedi, then the fact that the movie is called "the Last Jedi" is just a misnomer, the destruction of the Jedi texts and all that it implies was just a big headfake, the Jedi Order will continue, and a pivotal point in the movie -- so important that it gave the movie its title! -- doesn't actually mean anything!

Sounds like sloppy writing to me.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-26, 2:13 AM #168
Those texts aren't even destroyed as they're seen on the Millenium Falcon (like in the glove box or something) at the end of the movie.
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2017-12-26, 2:18 AM #169
Originally posted by Krokodile:
Those texts aren't even destroyed as they're seen on the Millenium Falcon (like in the glove box or something) at the end of the movie.


What?!? Damnit, that's so stupid!
former entrepreneur
2017-12-26, 2:20 AM #170
The writers weren't brave enough to take responsibility for the consequences of their own story. Gah!
former entrepreneur
2017-12-26, 2:24 AM #171
"The Missing Jedi Texts

We’re supposed to assume that Yoda burned down the prized Jedi texts with the tree structure on Ahch-to that housed them. But in a blink-and-you-miss-it moment at the end of the movie, we see that they actually are still intact.

When Finn opens up a drawer on the Millennium Falcon to grab a blanket for Rose, we catch a glimpse of the books lying next to it. While we can assume that Rey snagged the books before she peaced out from Ahch-to with Chewie and R2-D2, that has yet to be confirmed."

From this article: http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/12/15/star-wars-the-last-jedi-ending-explained

I must admit that I actually missed this on my viewing and only learned of it afterwards.
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2017-12-26, 2:27 AM #172
Did Luke stow them on the Falcon during the scene when he was there? I can't remember what he was doing there (aside from moping).
former entrepreneur
2017-12-26, 2:33 AM #173
We don't see him do that, and we do see him unable to bring himself to burn down the place that at that point we are led to believe still has the texts, and then Yoda burns it all down and Luke appears to believe the texts are getting destroyed. How the texts end up on the Millenium Falcon is left open.
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2017-12-26, 2:38 AM #174
So what are we be led to believe? That by burning down the tree and destroying the texts, Yoda is teaching Luke a lesson, that somehow makes it possible for him to muster the strength and resolve to get past his sad hermit phase and intervene at the end of the movie to save the Resistance? Why does that scene with the tree need to happen?! Either way, it turns the idea that Luke is the last Jedi into a red herring. And it's poor story telling to make into a red herring something presumably so important that it's the title of the movie.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-26, 3:06 AM #175
Plenty of red herrings going around in this trilogy, anyway, unless JJ explores a bunch of stuff in the third that he threw in with TFA that didn't get used in TLJ.
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2017-12-26, 3:23 AM #176
I hope so!

I still might have to see this one again while it's still in theaters. As much as I disliked it, there was a lot to think about.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-26, 6:33 AM #177
"There is nothing in that tree that Rey does not already possess." Is what Yoda says to Luke about the books. We assume he means she internally has the wisdom to start the jedi up again, or perhaps the force will show her everything she needs. Turns out she just took the books with her because she figured Luke wasn't going to do anything useful.

Plus, if you get rid of the Jedi how will Disney justify their Jedi school at Disney theme parks? That last shot of the film is the best promotional material you could dream of to get more kinds involved to buy cheap lightsabers from the gift stores.
My blawgh.
2017-12-26, 7:12 AM #178
Originally posted by Phantom-Seraph:
"There is nothing in that tree that Rey does not already possess." Is what Yoda says to Luke about the books. We assume he means she internally has the wisdom to start the jedi up again, or perhaps the force will show her everything she needs. Turns out she just took the books with her because she figured Luke wasn't going to do anything useful.

Plus, if you get rid of the Jedi how will Disney justify their Jedi school at Disney theme parks? That last shot of the film is the best promotional material you could dream of to get more kinds involved to buy cheap lightsabers from the gift stores.


I took him to mean that the traditions associated with the Jedi religion aren't valuable on their own terms, and don't provide anything that a thoughtful, force sensitive person couldn't arrive at through a combination of introspection, innate talent and auto-didacticism. Religious discipline and the cultivation of ability through religious training from someone who has already been initiated into the rites of the Jedi religion are no longer necessary. You have the force by... having it. There is no need for any kind of training, because the religious rites are superfluous. The fact that Rey is as powerful as Kylo Ren even though he has received Jedi training and she hasn't isn't an accident; it isn't a bug. It's the supposedly egalitarian way that the force works in the sequel trilogy.

I think there's an element of social critique to the destruction of the sacred texts. It's a Star Wars version of an idea that we frequently see in our political discourse: the idea that we no longer need the moral doctrines that our ancient and medieval Abrahamic religious traditions have passed down to us, because we moderns have a rationalistic, secular basis for morality that make religion and revelation obsolete and unnecessary. Just as we (secular) moderns eschew any of the religious practices that have to do with spiritual self-cultivation through the acquisition of knowledge of the content of our religious traditions, so too, we now have in this latest Star Wars movie a version of the force that reflects our religious prejudices (or irreligious prejudices, yet admittedly I genuinely can't decide which is appropriate here).

And I 100% agree that Disney wouldn't let the Jedi die if only because that'd be burning money. No doubt, a lot of the decisions behind this movie were made for the sake of commerce rather than art. That's likely why it feels like it's going off in five different directions. But there's still quite a bit of political messaging here. It's essentially a movie whose political perspective reflects the current center-left status quo with a sprinkling of populist class warfare sentiment for good measure.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-26, 7:25 AM #179
Originally posted by Reid:
Oh yeah, I forgot about the plot they didn't show! How could anyone criticize a movie when they don't know about the plot that's not in the movie. It's not like that was the same criticism peope made of TPM or anything..


Wow you are really mad at me for that huh? As far as I can tell, you never addressed what made you so frustrated by my comment.
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2017-12-26, 7:29 AM #180
Anyway, I saw it again. I think how Rian handled JJ's mysteries was masterful. In fact, I think having the mysteries there let Rian do a lot more with the story. The multiple sub-plots are easy to follow and pivot the story nicely for whatever 9 may be. I do wish Holdo was a more dynamic character though. She seems cool, but was only really there to help Poe stop being such a dingus.
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2017-12-26, 7:32 AM #181
I do understand the cynical "its all for merch" point of keeping the Jedi around but…*maybe they're trying to pivot the story into a more hopeful ending and expand it away from the Skywalkers. If there's going to be more stories in the universe they need to stop making it "well of course thats the hero. They're related to [jon'c]"
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2017-12-26, 7:37 AM #182
Originally posted by mb:
"its all for merch"


[https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] I [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] wonder [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] where [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] Star Wars [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] was [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] made. [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626]
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2017-12-26, 8:59 AM #183
movies should be made for the art of it ANYWAY!!!!!!!!
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2017-12-26, 9:12 AM #184
Originally posted by mb:
Wow you are really mad at me for that huh? As far as I can tell, you never addressed what made you so frustrated by my comment.


Lol no I ain't mad I was trying to be funny
2017-12-26, 9:20 AM #185
Originally posted by Reid:
Lol no I ain't mad I was trying to be funny


good to know. caught me off guard!
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2017-12-26, 1:14 PM #186
Originally posted by Nikumubeki:
[https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] I [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] wonder [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] where [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] Star Wars [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] was [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626] made. [https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=27412&d=1496582626]


England
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-12-26, 1:36 PM #187
Originally posted by Eversor:
I hope so!

I still might have to see this one again while it's still in theaters. As much as I disliked it, there was a lot to think about.


The Matrix: Reloaded revenue model.
2017-12-26, 1:38 PM #188
Originally posted by Phantom-Seraph:
"There is nothing in that tree that Rey does not already possess." Is what Yoda says to Luke about the books. We assume he means she internally has the wisdom to start the jedi up again, or perhaps the force will show her everything she needs. Turns out she just took the books with her because she figured Luke wasn't going to do anything useful.

Plus, if you get rid of the Jedi how will Disney justify their Jedi school at Disney theme parks? That last shot of the film is the best promotional material you could dream of to get more kinds involved to buy cheap lightsabers from the gift stores.


And yet in 20 year's time, the special edition will probably just change them into flashlights.
2017-12-26, 1:40 PM #189
Originally posted by Eversor:
I took him to mean that the traditions associated with the Jedi religion aren't valuable on their own terms, and don't provide anything that a thoughtful, force sensitive person couldn't arrive at through a combination of introspection, innate talent and auto-didacticism. Religious discipline and the cultivation of ability through religious training from someone who has already been initiated into the rites of the Jedi religion are no longer necessary. You have the force by... having it. There is no need for any kind of training, because the religious rites are superfluous. The fact that Rey is as powerful as Kylo Ren even though he has received Jedi training and she hasn't isn't an accident; it isn't a bug. It's the supposedly egalitarian way that the force works in the sequel trilogy.

I think there's an element of social critique to the destruction of the sacred texts. It's a Star Wars version of an idea that we frequently see in our political discourse: the idea that we no longer need the moral doctrines that our ancient and medieval Abrahamic religious traditions have passed down to us, because we moderns have a rationalistic, secular basis for morality that make religion and revelation obsolete and unnecessary. Just as we (secular) moderns eschew any of the religious practices that have to do with spiritual self-cultivation through the acquisition of knowledge of the content of our religious traditions, so too, we now have in this latest Star Wars movie a version of the force that reflects our religious prejudices (or irreligious prejudices, yet admittedly I genuinely can't decide which is appropriate here).

And I 100% agree that Disney wouldn't let the Jedi die if only because that'd be burning money. No doubt, a lot of the decisions behind this movie were made for the sake of commerce rather than art. That's likely why it feels like it's going off in five different directions. But there's still quite a bit of political messaging here. It's essentially a movie whose political perspective reflects the current center-left status quo with a sprinkling of populist class warfare sentiment for good measure.


I'm pretty sure Hillary Clinton was behind it.
2017-12-26, 1:54 PM #190
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I'm pretty sure Hillary Clinton was behind it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkPe-9rM1Q&t=2m35s
former entrepreneur
2017-12-26, 5:08 PM #191
LIEUTENANT MITAKA
Sir. We were unable to acquire the
droid on Jakku.
Ren turns to look at him, he says nothing.

LIEUTENANT MITAKA (CONT'D)
It escaped capture aboard a stolen
Corellian YT model freighter.

KYLO REN
The droid... stole a freighter?

LIEUTENANT MITAKA
Not exactly, sir. It had help.
Ren says nothing. Which says everything. Mitaka sweats.

LIEUTENANT MITAKA (CONT'D)
We have no confirmation, but we
believe FN-2187 may have been helped
in the escape--
Ren IGNITES HIS LIGHTSABER, TURNS AND SLASHES AT THE CONSOLE
BEHIND HIM! HOLD ON Mitaka, who reacts, looks away -- winces.
The horrible SOUNDS of Ren's rage continues. Finally Mitaka
looks up. The metallic wall behind Ren is RIPPED with glowing
scars.

KYLO REN
Anything else?
Mitaka hates to say the following, but:

LIEUTENANT MITAKA
The two were accompanied by a girl.
Ren reaches out -- Mitaka is suddenly, violently PULLED TOWARD
REN, into his black glove:

KYLO REN
What girl?

LIEUTENANT MITAKA
Nobody significant enough for you to recognize as a threat, or even consider concerning. Apparently. This is a gross overreaction to something that is at best a curiosity.

KYLO REN
Oh, okay. My bad mate.
2017-12-26, 6:10 PM #192
Originally posted by Jon`C:
LIEUTENANT MITAKA
This is a gross overreaction


nailed it
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2017-12-26, 8:39 PM #193
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
What I don't understand is how LEC video game cutscenes (even dumb ones like Rebel Assault II) feel more like SW to me than any of the new films. Although maybe that's because it's those very games are the source of what I consider to be SW.




I think this is just about the long and the short of it, unfortunately :v
2017-12-26, 8:46 PM #194
Star wars was a high quality bad movie. Like Roger Spruce said, a B movie. But a lovable one! Even Alec Guinness was enamoured by it just after filming it, saying it had a wonderous quality of innocence to it.

The new movies are just something else entirely.
2017-12-26, 8:56 PM #195
I really like how Star Wars criticism seems to fall into two camps.

People who dislike the new movies, often citing specific scenes or examples of writing that grated on them.

and people who think the complainers are a bunch of whiny babies who don't understand what it means to be ~creative~
2017-12-26, 9:00 PM #196
Originally posted by 'Thrawn[numbarz:
;1209394']


I think this is just about the long and the short of it, unfortunately :v


sigh

[quote=Roger Ebert, January 1st, 1977]Every once in a while I have what I think of as an out-of-the-body experience at a movie. When the ESP people use a phrase like that, they're referring to the sensation of the mind actually leaving the body and spiriting itself off to China or Peoria or a galaxy far, far away. When I use the phrase, I simply mean that my imagination has forgotten it is actually present in a movie theater and thinks it's up there on the screen. In a curious sense, the events in the movie seem real, and I seem to be a part of them.

"Star Wars" works like that. My list of other out-of-the-body films is a short and odd one, ranging from the artistry of "Bonnie and Clyde" or "Cries and Whispers" to the slick commercialism of "Jaws" and the brutal strength of "Taxi Driver." On whatever level (sometimes I'm not at all sure) they engage me so immediately and powerfully that I lose my detachment, my analytical reserve. The movie's happening, and it's happening to me.

What makes the "Star Wars" experience unique, though, is that it happens on such an innocent and often funny level. It's usually violence that draws me so deeply into a movie -- violence ranging from the psychological torment of a Bergman character to the mindless crunch of a shark's jaws. Maybe movies that scare us find the most direct route to our imaginations. But there's hardly any violence at all in "Star Wars" (and even then it's presented as essentially bloodless swashbuckling). Instead, there's entertainment so direct and simple that all of the complications of the modern movie seem to vaporize.

"Star Wars" is a fairy tale, a fantasy, a legend, finding its roots in some of our most popular fictions. The golden robot, lion-faced space pilot, and insecure little computer on wheels must have been suggested by the Tin Man, the Cowardly Lion, and the Scarecrow in "The Wizard of Oz." The journey from one end of the galaxy to another is out of countless thousands of space operas. The hardware is from "Flash Gordon" out of "2001: A Space Odyssey," the chivalry is from Robin Hood, the heroes are from Westerns and the villains are a cross between Nazis and sorcerers. "Star Wars" taps the pulp fantasies buried in our memories, and because it's done so brilliantly, it reactivates old thrills, fears, and exhilarations we thought we'd abandoned when we read our last copy of Amazing Stories.

The movie works so well for several reasons, and they don't all have to do with the spectacular special effects. The effects are good, yes, but great effects have been used in such movies as "Silent Running" and "Logan's Run" without setting all-time box-office records. No, I think the key to "Star Wars" is more basic than that.

The movie relies on the strength of pure narrative, in the most basic storytelling form known to man, the Journey. All of the best tales we remember from our childhoods had to do with heroes setting out to travel down roads filled with danger, and hoping to find treasure or heroism at the journey's end. In "Star Wars," George Lucas takes this simple and powerful framework into outer space, and that is an inspired thing to do, because we no longer have maps on Earth that warn, "Here there be dragons." We can't fall off the edge of the map, as Columbus could, and we can't hope to find new continents of prehistoric monsters or lost tribes ruled by immortal goddesses. Not on Earth, anyway, but anything is possible in space, and Lucas goes right ahead and shows us very nearly everything. We get involved quickly, because the characters in "Star Wars" are so strongly and simply drawn and have so many small foibles and large, futile hopes for us to identify with. And then Lucas does an interesting thing. As he sends his heroes off to cross the universe and do battle with the Forces of Darth Vader, the evil Empire, and the awesome Death Star, he gives us lots of special effects, yes -- ships passing into hyperspace, alien planets, an infinity of stars -- but we also get a wealth of strange living creatures, and Lucas correctly guesses that they'll be more interesting for us than all the intergalactic hardware.

The most fascinating single scene, for me, was the one set in the bizarre saloon on the planet Tatooine. As that incredible collection of extraterrestrial alcoholics and bug-eyed martini drinkers lined up at the bar, and as Lucas so slyly let them exhibit characteristics that were universally human, I found myself feeling a combination of admiration and delight. "Star Wars" had placed me in the presence of really magical movie invention: Here, all mixed together, were whimsy and fantasy, simple wonderment and quietly sophisticated storytelling.

When Stanley Kubrick was making "2001" in the late 1960s, he threw everything he had into the special effects depicting outer space, but he finally decided not to show any aliens at all -- because they were impossible to visualize, he thought. But they weren't at all, as "Star Wars" demonstrates, and the movie's delight in the possibilities of alien life forms is at least as much fun as its conflicts between the space cruisers of the Empire and the Rebels.

And perhaps that helps to explain the movie's one weakness, which is that the final assault on the Death Star is allowed to go on too long. Maybe, having invested so much money and sweat in his special effects, Lucas couldn't bear to see them trimmed. But the magic of "Star Wars" is only dramatized by the special effects; the movie's heart is in its endearingly human (and non-human) people.

(See Ebert's review of "The Hidden Fortress," which inspired Lucas.)[/quote]

4/4 stars.

Only good because you were a kid. Give me a ****ing break. Everybody loved the first two movies.
2017-12-26, 9:01 PM #197
Originally posted by 'Thrawn[numbarz:
;1209394']


I think this is just about the long and the short of it, unfortunately :v


There's the ******* side of me that sees Tweets like this and I want to say:

Quote:
the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you ****ing moron".


It's like, there's two impressions people have about old people: either everything new sucks and back in my day things were better, rah rah rah, or old people are all out of touch and just don't see what's good in the new.

I don't get why both sides are so extreme. In the past some things were good, things change, things are lost. Clearly some of what's lost was sad, and some can be shed just fine. It's not all or nothing and people tend to resort to extreme rhetoric when their feelings are offended by another's opinion.

Though there's so much angst in /r/StarWars , I've been kind of poking at the more epically salty people for fun. And it's been great.
2017-12-26, 9:04 PM #198
My kid wanted to watch "BB-8" tonight, so I got a chance to re-evaluate my opinions about TFA. And I gotta say, those opinions really held up under scrutiny.
2017-12-26, 9:15 PM #199
Originally posted by Roger Ebert:
What makes the "Star Wars" experience unique, though, is that it happens on such an innocent and often funny level.


See, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

Jon`C said something about TFA being "crazy dark" in the thread we had about that movie. And I agree. The whole sun crusher type thing was just terribly depressing to witness since made it feel like they were up against a foe with God-like powers.
2017-12-26, 9:17 PM #200
Whereas in ANH, the Death Star was run by overconfident generals who failed to realize its insignificance compared to the power of the force.
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