To further continue off Britt's response:

As far as the matter of sub-plots, I didn't mean to imply that ALl the sub-plots were unrelated tangents, and I actually find some of them interesting (such as the development with Antestarr). As for an example I'm familiar with (Game of Thrones), a reader is trusting the author that the parallel plots have some overall significance, and it's a trust very difficult to uphold even as a professional writer who has sole authorship over a work. When I suggest that we limit the subplots, I say that in part to make it simpler for us in some regard, and allow our efforts to remain focused. Do you recall Kiron Nightstrider, or Matthias, or heck, even that most of our current main cast of characters are technically dead? It's admirable to want to tie every loose end up as soon as possible, and it's difficult at best. I should also note that I believe a reader should NOT be expected to have read all of the NeS; just like in comic books or TV series like Doctor Who, it's always a first issue or episode for someone, and expecting them to know the whole backlog is a burden that should not be placed. I think it's more reasonable to assume that the reader has read at least the current page or story-arc, and references made prior should be called back economically. It's why I feel the improv guideline "keep it simple" should be followed.

Regarding Atlantis, I would just like to request once again that we not have any story involving Atlantis restored, brought back, what-have-you. Al knows one of my primary reasons for this, and it's a reason I don't wish to abandon yet.

As for Hero Force One, I considered them the equivalent of JLA, though X-men wouldn't be far off either (though if we're going with Marvel equivalent, I'd probably go with Fantastic Four or Avengers). I could see them being a SHIELD equivalent too, though, and allow for a little less of the American jokes.

The reason Heaven generally isn't described or such is a rather practical one: it's generally the "and they live happily ever after" place, a realm not fit for stories except as an end. In Hell, at least, there's precedent for heroes plunging into Hell to save someone or cause trouble or get the tour or what-have-you, though I do feel we've written FAR too much about stuff happening with and in Hell, and the idea of a revolving door does make it pretty pointless. I've found over-and-over again though that NeS writers do NOT like places where characters are trapped and often write them easily navigating in and out (8th Dimension, Dreamstate, Land of Story-Arcs Past, etc.).

I'd like to bring up, in regards to the Protectors of the Plotfractal, specially with Rachel and Evil Geb, that they ARE meant to be inter-changeable in their 'alignment'. It just happens that Rachel generally assists "Good" and Evil Geb assists "Bad" -- I think it diminishes their somewhat special quality to remain "legitimately" in a morally grey area if they're "meant" to be leaning towards one side or the other.

Regarding the Forgotten, while I agree that their relatively new status as a force to be (somewhat) reckoned with collectively should be resolved in the not-too-distant future, I WILL say that they shouldn't ever be "wrapped up" and never mentioned again. The Forgotten have become an iconic part of the NeS "mythos" so to speak alongside plotholes and the like, and it's a character quality that is continuously relevant to NeS characters.

Time-traveling is something I generally wish to avoid. I feel it's an over-abused element and that, in this case, isn't used well to push anything apart from "hey, look at these future versions of characters." There's no reflection upon the present state of things or a significant impact upon the main cast at this point, so it still comes off as superfluous to me at best.

Again, as for the Never War and my comparison to the Temporal Cold War in Star Trek, I too thought it SOUNDED cool when they first introduced it, and had trusted the writers to go somewhere with it. However, they didn't, and I feel it's a good parallel to the danger of writing this sort of thing in NeS as well. Too often, subplots get dropped by their own writers (I'm sure I'm guilty of this too, though I do my best to avoid it), and that's only one obstacle that arises from running a multitude of subplots.

To bring up a tangent with the Memory Lane story-arc, I want to know if you guys feel if we should consider ending it when they reach page 50. I had hoped that we could go through the whole of NeS up to this point, though with all the other parallel story-arcs going on (and thus not advancing at the page-per-post average I initially estimated), it's likely to drag on for longer than even 6 pages (the longest a 'story-arc' has gone for). I don't have a problem either way -- whatever would work better for the story at large. Even if we adopt page 50 as "the end" of this story-arc, we could certainly jump briefly to NeSquared parts if anyone feels it's absolutely vital regardless.

Finally, regarding Michael and Knowsoul: yes, Michael is a far more interesting character, in part because Knowsoul isn't really meant to strictly be a character but moreso a literary device or obstacle, like a personification of Death. I really have little problem if Knowsoul ups and "dies" this story-arc, never to be seen again -- I was simply trying to do what I felt was a needed merging of two very similar characters (Darkside and Tsolo) into the role of (character) Death that the NeS could use. Knowosul was there just to give a 'goal' for what would have otherwise just be characters idly putzing through memories. I definitely agree that Michael should probably become the antagonistic focus of sorts, as I could easily see him serving Knowsoul as Vader might serve the Emperor or as Gollum 'served' the ring/Sauron or how Agent Smith 'served' the interests of the Machines. (speaking of subplots that had mucked things up, how about Michael returning after his defeat by TLTE, eh?)

In any case, I look forward to how the NeS develops and intend to have fun with stuff in the immediate future, such as Losien and Amal's interaction and development individually and together.

I do remember Matthias (not Kiron), he was a survivor of the NeScholars. I don't know if there was any real sub-plot with Matthias other than he hated Thand for killing everyone else. But I do understand your meaning; will it all get lost. In all honesty, I doubt any of mine will be completely forgotten. I may leave it for a few posts, not wanting a sub-plot to overtake the main plot for counts but really it's what I'm good at; something you'd probably realise from The Imperium and the immense effort I put into background story for the wiki. I don't intend to wrap up all sub-plots in quick succession but rather a) the ones I thought would be interesting and b) ones I feel would lend some flare to the current situation of characters or tie-in with some other plot feature (whether main or as an addition to another sub-plot). I do feel every sub-plot since my return has been tied in nicely with other aspects of the story (except maybe the Chikin Chateau but that's Al Ciao's domain really featuring a few of his characters doing things when I'm really not sure what their drives are). I might not have a major published work (although there is that short story in a published anthology) but I do have a qualification specifically in writing, it's probably the one thing I'm fairly good at. I can manage myself, I'm sure :rolleyes:.

As for a reader, in all honesty I can't imagine someone who wants to be a reader only, not reading all of the NeS. It would kind of be the point really. Certainly many comics and TV shows you can generally sit and watch from any episode, however this isn't a big, mainstream production. If someone decides they'd like to put a whole lot of time into reading something like the NeS they're probably interested in reading all of it. And frankly I do not find the actual plots of the NeS to be confusing at all by comparison to the plots of most comic book universes (Did you know Ms Marvel was taken into an alternate dimension where she was raped by her own son who impregnated her with himself, sent her back to her own world with no memories where she gave birth to him and he grew in a matter of weeks; then she agreed to go to the alternate world with him until he died and only when he died did she learn that he'd tricked her. During all this the Avengers basically said 'good luck and have fun'. And that's just one example for my favourite character (And one story I was very unhappy with I must point out.).).

As for the sub-plots I begin, generally they're likely to be short plot-lines that will converge or end within a page or two; as proven by the Krig in Valhalla plot which has now come to an end (save for the Krog spin-off, but again I'm not one hundred per cent on that whole scenario). Sometimes things I intended to go nowhere have been taken up by others (namely auld Al Ciao in this case ;).), such as Benedict Cumberlatch who I had honestly intended to be just a one-off character who died and led to Krig-based stuff. But really I think so far everything seems fine. When it does get confusing I'll know and I'll try to rein things in myself.

Protectors; Sorry if it seemed I was saying otherwise on this. I wasn't. I do agree that both of them are much more grey than that, I've seen Rachel doing things that have been very detrimental to the heroes and Evil G has helped them out in some ways. But whilst Rachel is likely to pan a few heroes with a frying pan, Evil G is likely to throw them into a fiery pit. I have no real suggestions right now on what to do with the Protectors/Hands stuff (and really it's this kind of meta-story lark that's the really confusing stuff in the NeS), but my point was that there seems to be lack of clear roles and functions on what this lot are actually meant to be doing and, more importantly, why?

Again, sorry if it seemed I was suggesting the Forgotten be removed. I wasn't. As I said, perhaps the army is replaced by something more mundane that would be in the background of the story. Hell even if the Army remained, no problem, but the whole Twin Suns aspect really needs something doing to it as it felt like it was ready to go somewhere.

Time travel stuff I would mostly agree with you. My only problem now is with the 'Never War' being something that 'will' happen in the future. But really I won't worry about it and will simply continue on unless I see something that might fit it and then I'll work it. Otherwise I'm not going to worry about it too much. However I do believe that, actually, the children of the NeS Heroes is something that reflects our current characters (in pretty big ways actually) as we see miniature versions, essentially, of the characters.

And yes, I was thinking about that too Gebohq. Page 50 seems like a sensible cut-off and could easily be worked due to the immense number of plot-holes at the time (by that I mean in-story plot-holes not actual narrative ones :/). Having said that, I think there might still be some scenes from that last post missing, you know?

Michael's return wasn't actually any kind of sub-plot rather Michael's Writer returned, hadn't seemed to have read anything before and simply had him show up. He had to have 'no memories' because, obviously, the Writer didn't either. I don't think the Writer stuck around and from the way people wrote, I don't think the likes of TLTE was happy at the character's return so he was quickly discarded. But hey, it worked out in the end because I remembered it!

Thanks for the responses, guys! Feedback, brainstorming, critique, discussion of ideas - that's what the workshop is for. ^-^

See my post on page 36 (#1399) for my addresses to several of your points. (I can't remember how to link to a specific post, haha.)

Pretty much the one thing I stubbornly kept to was Acidspitter & Seraphim. I dunno why, but I like them! [SQUEE] I did try to spice it up though, as Geb suggested. Their argument, as was much of the rest of the post, comes off as somewhat contrived (as I lampshade a couple times), but it's a start. We can flesh it out later if we need to. I also worked that into Al's being replaced with Acidspitter. I hope I can make him and Seraphim interesting enough that someone else will want to play with them too, hehe; but if not, oh well.

BTW, regarding Seraphim's not being a real angel... it was I, I think, who explicitly stated that she was. I honestly thought she was meant to be. We can change that if you all think it's necessary; maybe she's lying, or delusional, or was granted honorary angelhood (like an honorary degree) for some service. As for her skimpy outfit and angelhood... Good Is Sexy. (I could swear there's a TV Trope for that, but it's not coming to me immediately.)

The bit at the end about Highemp blowing up some stars is a nod to Britt's comment about the audience's emotional investment, using his specific example. It is NOT meant to be a lead-in or a surreptitiously kept-open door for anything.

While no one really commented on whether High Imp needed any adjusting, I went ahead and largely depowered him as well, connected as he is to Highemp. This way, less powerplaying, more on par with Al Ciao. By which I mean, instead of High Imp being the Death Star to Al's gnat, he's just the Hulk to Al's gnat.

High Imp still has a standard complement of villain powers, he's just not a demigod who can snuff stars with a sneeze.

Geb: Hey, that was nice alliteration! All is forgiven.



Britt, insofar as Michael's random Twice-forgetfulness... I generally assumed it could be random, as Michael may be intending to just erase the entire NeS. Of course, at the time I assumed this, I was also planning grandiose zero hour epics, so it may not matter, haha. Also, as I suggested in my post, his very presence could erase some things without him even trying; perhaps he walked through the memory of Highemp and Mia's first meeting or something.

:omg::omg::omg::omg:

Was my response to your latest post Al Ciao. I'm honestly shocked and impressed with how surprisingly willing you are to change like that. I actually felt a little lump in my throat ("Such a brave, brave boy!" :p). I will say that you probably didn't need to completely, outright perform such a massive cut back all at once but really it is probably the best approach. Well done. I'm honestly awed.

You just click on the number of the post, then copy and paste the address bar. Linked

I don't think any of us expected you to remove the majority of the things you did so keeping something isn't something we're likely to complain about. In fact I quite like Seraphim so when you first burnt her to a crisp my jaw actually dropped. I just find Acidspitter a... well a nothing interesting.

Too late, don't change it back now or anything. It's been done and it was never clear that she wasn't an angel. Thus it's fine. I do think maybe the 'wings', assuming she now has them, might be an issue as I've never written them in before and I know she's done a lot of flying. So either she has none, or they're small and just for show or something.

The whole replacing Al Ciao as ruler of Hell isn't strictly necessary unless you feel it should be done. Whilst it is a kind of powergaming thing you played it well and made it so that he's not exactly Mr Awesome with it. I think he could still be a main character and be Mr Eight if you want him to be. But really maybe we should consider who's going to win the competition from the students and possible wonder if the winning character wouldn't be suited for the role? (though please don't vote specifically to get a character for the role).

I do think Highemp's departure might have left the door open at least a small bit, but it's fine. It will probably bother me for a long time though. I'm just one of those people that feels... ticks in the plot. Haha!

I was kind of surprised that you depowered High Imp. He is a villain of the story afterall and really wouldn't have been so bad as an uber. The way you made him an uber (with all of the pacts) was, to be completely fair, a very interesting one; much better than, 'he just is awesome'. But if he's still got something to him and still has his nasty streak maybe he can become even more interesting now? With the removal of power comes characterisation to fill that void I tend to find. Kind of like how awesome CG movies, like Avatar, don't really have much of a storyline behind them. Then many dramatic movies with plenty of story and character have poor special effects.

Well you've pretty much made it absolute canon that he does wipe memories at random with your latest post, though it does seem to be by accident. Maybe it's the removal of a specific character for a large term of memories that is when he requires a contract? Hum.

Britt: I really wish you had talked things over before doing something as drastic as you did with Michael and Knowsoul. It really comes off as negating when the big bad is quickly slapped down in place and then divided up as if everything Knowsoul did prior was pointless. While I probably would have agreed to Michael ultimately supplanting Knowsoul, it would have been far better to have a slow build-up of Michael questioning Knowsoul, being put in his place, discovering at some point that Knowsoul likely wouldn't give him the satisfaction of a fulfilling revenge against Losien, and THEN supplanting him at the end of the story-arc (or at least closer to it) so that the quest still holds weight and that the climax could have been meaningful. As it stands right now, Michael's actions making so little of the main bad guy in turn makes the story-arc hold less weight. Despite the lack of 'action' going on, I think this story-arc has been developing some pretty good character building, and I want to be careful that we don't go blazing through in forgetting details about characters (of which is Michael's strength in many ways). For instance, Losien and Amal's one-on-one keeps getting forgotten... (The short: don't forget the guidelines of improvisation, myself included!)

Regarding the story-arc, I think we can probably all agree that, at its current pace, we should not go any further than page 50 of the original NeS (though we can certainly have random memories from NeSquared and ones that are newly written taking place whenever). With that said, I notice both of you have used a LOT of memories from just a single page (page 15 to be precise). If there's really that much on that page you want to cover, great, and I want to remind you both that I really only felt we needed to take one per page and only more if we really felt something from that page should be highlighted for whatever reason.

I'll end with saying that you two are writing great stuff, and keep at it! I also apologize if my own recent post came off as less-than-collaborative, though I did do my best to try and build on what's happened and not negate it.

Well, it just came to me at the time. Talking about it would kind of defeat the point of improvisation that I take to heart when writing for the NeS. I just write what comes to me. I sometimes try to at least enquire about something if I felt it would ruin someone's long-running character, but KnowSoul didn't feel like an important character that anyone had put any time or effort into, so I figured no one would mind! Sorry about that.

The point remains, however. KnowSoul had next to no purpose. What was his motivation behind his actions anyway? Just because he's evul? If you can take a plot and replace the villain with any number of other villains then you have a rubbish villain. At least with Michael in the role there's more motivation and character in our bad guy.

What I find the most amusing, ironic, & frankly quite annoying is this: In times past, I have been active on other names. Only to forget them and go in active. Sometimes even for a year or two. However, I come back & not much has changed. That or it doesn't take much to catch up to the current. Both with the ISB & the other forums. I fall back into place easily.

I stay active; keep track of my name & pass; and in general, try not to be a stranger. Though once in a while... yes, I take a leave.

I go away for a few weeks then come back to find practically an entire book or two of content to have to read to catch up...


Oi... Thanks for takin' it easy on me guys.

LOL Yay, glad you're back, Lib! I can't wait till you're a-posting madly again!

It'll still be a few before I do that. I want to catch up on the story so far (which as I mentioned before, you guys didn't make it easy, lol). Also, as Geb can probably attest to (as I have mentioned it to him a few times), I have a quite a number of projects on my plate at the moment.

That's not to say the NeS isn't one of them, not by any means. I love the NeS. Writing for it is one of the writing projects I do just for the fun of it. However, when it comes to something I get paid for/am invested in for my future; then the NeS takes a hit in priority, lol. Sad but true.

We hear you, and we look forward to whenever you are able to return.

Also, to Britt's post from a while ago, yes, Michael has much more character than Knowsoul, and that's because Knowsoul, like Tsolo and Darkside, are ultimately meant more as forces of darkness and (character) death. Sure, they have a body, but Knowsoul wasn't meant to be thought of as a villain but instead more as a force. As I said before, though, my major concern has been that knocking Knowsoul aside so casually negated what had been established. Improvisation isn't just about acting impulsive and without a plan; it's about a collaborative effort that requires listening and many other things I've posted about on this workshop before. What's done is done, though, and I know we're all making this into some awesome stuff, so keep it up. I know I've got to pick up on the posting and such myself, ugh.

OK. I'm back. On a relatively regular basis. I want to see this bad boy through to page 50 - I haven't completely caught up, but I've got some big ideas, you have been doing an exemplary job of keeping this thing alive: let's do this.

Welcome back! I hope you don't mind how I re-entered TLTE into the fray of things. I took the liberty of "removing" Master Thand from the scene, as it seemed at least for the moment that he wasn't getting much use and that he would derail the story with TLTE back. However, I left it so that he could conceivably re-enter the group at any point, since at the very least, I'd like him to be with the group at the climax of the story-arc.

Also, yes, I've actually had a persistent cough for some time, so I weaved some non-fiction with the writer material for giggles.

Welcome back, TLTE!

So I'm thinking about the approach Geb suggested, to take one memory from each page of the original NeS. That's still nearly 30 pages to go, and it feels like it might be something of a chore to trudge through them, not to mention time consuming to come up with appropriate posts accompanying them (from the main cast and their reactions). Y'know, instead of just doing a random flyby of memories with no present-day comments.

Maybe we should take just a memory or few from each story arc, rather than each page? The story arcs are listed very conveniently by Geb on the first page of the workshop.

What do y'all think?

Ugh, lost my post. Retype in lazier format.

I think doing a "memory of a post per page" for a post on average is fine. We can certainly do multiple 'pages' per post, and we can do less (like a few per story-arc as suggested). Just remember that the intent of this story-arc was to give an 'easy out' for writers to draw material from while having a real-life "hey, remember this memorable or relevant part of NeS?" time. The memories certainly don't have to relate to the present-day scenario or have the characters comment on it -- the mere juxtaposition of past and present will work well I think. So long as we don't rush or force any memories, I think however this story-arc is tackled will turn out well.

Hey all!

So I'm getting the vibe that the "memories" part might be getting more of a chore for you all and I have no desire to drag you all through something you don't want to write. As it is, I still feel we should cover up to page 50 of the original thread and not skimp on that without taking a super-long time. So I have a suggestion if you guys don't mind: I can take a weekend, and with keeping proper in-story context, do a bunch of posts to cover the memories between, say, page 20 (about where it is now) to page 40-something, and then we can proceed as normal. To a reader, there shouldn't be much difference except more "memory" posts (and posts by me) in a row. Thoughts?

Also, I must confess that I'm having a difficult time with some of our current cast. I'll list specifics below.

Losien: She now has TLTE and Amal back. They can probably go the rest of the story-arc with a general "happy family" thing going for them, and before that happens, there's stuff between Amal and Losien (unrequited awkward-having-forgotten-TLTE romance mostly) that should be addressed first. Otherwise, at this point, I think we got a pretty good handle on her - I think it's safe to say at this point that, like how Geb has been often portrayed as a coward when there's physical harm at risk which he challenges, Losien's moved from "constantly bipolar poor self-image/super-confident" to something more in between - a coward with her own ability which she challenges.
Amal: I've already mentioned the Amal/Losien thing, and I'm also fairly confident that Amal has enough to work off now to not be so puppy-dog dependent on TLTE. However, I think he still lacks a strong, specific personal drive as well as some "tags" (typical behaviors, characteristic traits, etc.).
TLTE: I wrote Thand out of the group for now in large part because I think the current situation would otherwise have had this character derail everything in another burning drive to confront Thand. With that said, now, there's also the obvious Michael/TLTE dynamic that I feel needs to come up soon, but how?
Michael: He's quickly losing his own drive, I feel. Initially, he was quite strong since, unlike Knowsoul, Michael has a personal revenge he wants to play out on TLTE/Losien (moreso on Losien, I think?).
Darkside: Now a (likely begrudging) lackey of Michael, Darkside seems to have recently failed to corrupt the heroes. What to do with him now?
Tsolo: As before, he's now becoming Forgotten himself, which defeats the whole point of him as a "weeding out the Forgotten Grim Reaper" type character/plot device. What should be done with him?
The Illusionist: I have to admit, I never got a firm grasp on this character other then that they seem to be permanent lackey material. Not sure what should be done with this character.
Al Ciao: I'm not too worried about this character, as Al (the actual writer) seems to be on top of that. Just a reminder that we should probably figure out what consequences might be coming about regarding the bet with Geb, since that's all mixed up now. I also personally want to keep playing up how everybody seems to ignore Al as a credible presence - it's something I can relate to!
Rachel: She was starting out strong with challenging Losien, and now that Losien seems to more or less have secured her place... maybe Rachel should switch to getting the villains' butts in gear specifically? She would otherwise seem to be cluttering up the group.
Soriel: Again, not too worried about this character since I think Britt stays pretty on top of that. I know his overall goal right now is to develop himself as more than a fighter (since he currently can't fight), although I'm less certain about his immediate goals and motivation, especially since I took Thand out of the group.
Maeve: She seems to be hitting the same note a lot, and doesn't seem to have a goal/motivation. Ideas?
The Otter: As much as he makes a good womanizing drunk, I feel he's lacking any real goal/motivation too. I played back with the idea that he was more perceptive that the others were under a corrupting influence - maybe continue with him as the scout that the others haven't yet taken seriously?
Apple: I admit, I've been lazy with keeping on top of this character, as I have a suspicion she's been written pretty well. For now, I presume she's trying to hang around Losien and be hero-like in the hopes that her baby won't be like Al...?

While my primary concern are the characters above, I also don't wish to neglect the secondary stories, and I'm afraid I have even less of a hold on some of those:

Antestarr: He's had a pretty awesome and serious change recently (becoming a NeSferatu) and his driving goal throughout all of NeSquared has been to stick it to the Writers, primarily by creating and supporting Young. She's now recently given birth, and the initial idea was that she'd end up taking Ante's desire to an extreme by controlling the characters herself to protect them from the writers, though I don't think that'll happen. Still, I feel there should be some culmination of this sooner than later, and at the very least, Ante seems overdue for talking to Young and hunting down main characters to feed on bloodink.
Krig the Viking: Krig's never been one to need much motivation or the like. Still, what shiny thing could be distracting him now?
Subaru: Her place seems pretty obvious - be mad at Ante. Maybe she'll kick the bucket if Ante decides to shut her up by feeding on her...?
Young: Giving birth sort of takes the wind out of her sails in doing much at the moment, which sucks as I really wanted to "wrap up" her stuff before that happened. Now I'm not sure what to do...
Evil Geb: Maybe Evil Geb can instigate something with Young? Or maybe he should just skeedaddle someplace else?
Emperor Pi: If I recall, he's waiting on Rachel. For what, I don't remember.

Detective Hawthorne: So he's done his job now I believe... is he out of the picture?
Other Hero Force One Characters: Again, I must confess, I've not really been keeping tabs on the latest with these guys. Thoughts?

Some thoughts on (some of) the characters you mentioned:

Amal: You are correct. He *does* need his own personality. It's entirely possible he could become an antihero himself, similar to TLTE. Perhaps he feels he needs to follow his adoptive father/uncle's path and become a villain for a time? Although he's mostly play acting; he doesn't have a villain's motivations and drive, but he still tries to kill the heroes and take over the world and in generally act like a tool?

TLTE: Remember, TLTE is clever enough that he managed to "remind" himself of meeting Michael by writing the name on the frilly pink dress. What's to say he's not still in that frilly pink dress - or at least as a scrap of it sticking to his clothes - with the name on it, and he deduces what is going on, to some extent?

Michael: Technically, nothing has caused him to lose his own drive here; it's simply that he's getting lost amidst everything else. There are several subplots (a lot of which is indeed my fault), plus trying to get through the memories is indeed somewhat chorelike, sapping my creative energies elsewhere.

On that aside, I do like the idea of you taking a weekend to do 20 pages worth of memories.

Darkside: It does seem he's failed, as it were. He is cluttering up the villain tableau at this point, IMO, so I feel it best to either let him quietly fade away from the arc, or bring a definitive end to his machinations for the current story arc.

Tsolo: Again, I feel he's cluttering up the villain tableau at this point. Michael has essentially replaced him (weeding out Forgotten characters so that they don't exist, as with Dr. Dormouse), but with a much more personal drive and cooler vibe. Perhaps there should be a confrontation wherein Michael officially usurps Tsolo's "office"? This could make Michael a "part" of the NeS rather than "merely" a villain, making it difficult for the heroes to make a permanent end to him.

The Illusionist: Britt's character. I think he/she is supposed to be Darth Puis, however I am not entirely sure. The main idea is that he/she is a lackey, and he/she is entirely morphable, having little if any reality of his/her own, only the illusion thereof sustaining his/her tenuous hold on existence. Similar to the Warlock Lord from The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks. If we unclutter the villain tableau of Darkside and Tsolo, I think he/she makes a good lackey for Michael, as he/she is interesting in and of him/herself.

Al: Why thank you sir!

Rachel: Again, you are correct. I like the idea of her getting in gear to kick villain butt. Perhaps she's the one who deduces that Darkside has been corrupting people, and marshals the mission (as it were) to eject him from the arc? After that, it's entirely possible that we can add her to the list of heroes to remove from the main team, as clutter; however, she'd be a secondary choice for me in that regard, as she's quite an interesting character.

Maeve & The Otter: Quite good as the drunken womanizer types, they also play well off each other. Britt especially is able to do hilarious things with them. However, they are somewhat cluttering up the hero tableau, and would be my first choices for removing from the team. With apologies to Britt (as he's the one who brought them back into un-Forgotten status), perhaps he could establish a (tiny) subplot with them if he wishes to keep them somewhat in the story?

Also, Al is fast becoming a pervert as well, so he could fill in their role.

Apple: She's a good foil for Al, and possibly Losien as well. Also, she's fairly integral to the Al's ******* Children subplot. I vote for keeping her on the main team; however, like Rachel, she'd be a secondary choice for removing her from the main team for purposes of uncluttering.


Sub Plot Characters

Ante & Young: YES! By all means, culminate this. I'm a little unclear though, how having already given birth makes it difficult to do this? Please clarify.

Subaru: Turning her into a NeSferatu might be an interesting twist. I don't find it necessary, but it could definitely work if we choose to go that direction. Mainly, she's the current love interest of Ante (even while being mad at him currently), and it would be nice if we could develop that some. Alternatively, we could have her march off in a huff (not a breakup, just a cooldown period) if we don't want to deal with her. On the other hand, I think she has potential for the Ante/Young scenario. She could temper Ante's drive by pointing out (once it gets to that point) that Young is more of a threat to the story than the Writers are. In addition, she could act as something of a mother figure to Young (love interest to Ante, the "father", plus she also has blue hair; mmmm, blue hair... ).

Krig: He is awesome. That is all. Perhaps he becomes enthralled by baby Chance and becomes his babysitter?

Evil Geb: I think he's a good part of the "family dynamic" of Ante/Subaru/Young/Chance; plus, in general, I like him. In addition, I think he plays well off Krig.

Emperor Pi: He's come to "claim" Rachel, his wayward daughter, and is simply waiting for her to leave Memory Lane. A father/daughter confrontation is sure to happen here; should we choose to remove Rachel from the main team for purposes of uncluttering, perhaps this could be the avenue by which she leaves.

Detective Hawthorne: With apologies to Britt, I do think we're done with him for now.

Hero Force One: Acidspitter and Seraphim are my faves of course, and Britt digs Seraphim as well. Really, the main thing here is the angels attacking Hero Force One which is being defended by demons and apparently chimney sweeps that speak vernacular.

I must stress that it's becoming a thing where you're all classing a character as 'forgotten' just because they haven't been mentioned in a while. I'm afraid this can't be the standard to use when, at least, addressing sub-plot characters and villains. We can't post as the villains in every post and, in fact, it's often best not to use them in every single post. Likewise the idea of a sub-plot is that it's referenced much less than the main cast of characters.

I do not believe any have been forgotten, certainly none of the villains. There's just three of them; Michael, Tsolo and DarkSide. In all honesty I never liked Tsolo either. Visually impressive but the only thing that made him even mildly interesting was his initial references with randomly disappearing characters and then his rivalry with Kern and Twin Suns. Otherwise there was nothing to him. At least as Michael's main 'bounce off' he gets to develop. I'll do something with DarkSide...

The Illusionist is not in the current cast of villains. I'm surprised Al put her on the list his first post. She's a character that is able to come and go as a random lackey for whatever super-villain is present. She's able to be both a super cool villain, because she can provide an interesting plot twist at any point (ah he is NOT him but The Illusionist! Ho ho!). As I say, even when a character, especially a villain, isn't a part of the current plot doesn't mean they're truly forgotten. They're just on hiatus until the time if right to return. The X-Men didn't fight Magneto all of the time. Recurring things have often been some of the best parts of the NeS, such as the war on Disney that came and went frequently.

I actually tried to make ease the 'chore' of memories by putting Michael and Tsolo in position to watch them instead of the heroes, then at least the heroes would be doing more fun and interesting stuff while the memories could still come but away from the main cast. No one seemed to continue with that though. Maybe I'll give it another shot.

Amal: The whole reason TLTE was taken out of the main cast was to allow development for Amal (and Losien to a lesser extent). I honesty do believe we did great things with Amal without TLTE around to overshadow him and I felt we were getting somewhere.

Losien: With TLTE back it's going to be very difficult to keep Losien interesting. Fortunately it does look like she's kept some qualities of DarkSide's handiwork so she might insist on maintaining a presence.

TLTE: TLTE is a very strong and domineering character with plenty of presence and is very well developed and established. But this undermines Losien and Amal who suddenly become satellite characters there to fulfill the TLTE character. Already people have referred to 'the family'. It was like a wave of boredom, I swear.

Al: Not sure about him replacing Maeve and The Otter. His new-found pervert status is merely induced by DarkSide and ought to wear off and, really, we don't want to make Al too much a 'jack-of-all-trades' because it'll become dull. I actually enjoy the more daft humour released through Al, along with the underdog humour.

The Otter, Rachel and Maeve: All three are a little sidelined and Maeve and Otter are somewhat a running joke by themselves.

The Otter: I'd actually like to look at what might have happened with MaybeChilde. Unfortunately with the current plot it's been difficult to explore minor sub-plots like this because we've been unable to really deviate from Memory Lane without spoiling the storyline.

Maeve: A bit similar to The Otter which may be why she's not got anything extra to go on. However she does have a little bit more depth in her personality (Otter has much more depth based on his development over the years but Maeve's personality is more varied). Plus she's gay, which is a quality missing otherwise. But she's 'new' in many respects, though there's the history of being married and college years, she needs time to grow and develop more history; similar to Amal, yet she's already a million times more interesting than him.

Essentially Otter and Maeve took in the freed up slots vacated by TLTE and Gebohq. Really I'd hoped TLTE would come back at the end of the story arc rather than during. But now that Thand has vacated instead (which is lucky because for a long time I'd been harbouring the desire to kill him off.... :awesomelon:) the numbers have remained unchanged since I originally returned to writing. So I don't see why there's any talk of pruning anyway? The only character that I feel could happily be removed from the cast is Amal. He's been around for so long and yet he's got minimal personality. He's been developed recently quite a lot but he's still the least interesting character of the lot. But even then I'd say keep him in.

Rachel: I honestly love Rachel, she's always been one of my favourites. The best thing for her was the rivalry with Losien. A bit of drama within the main cast is the way to go, rather than all of this buddy-buddy hand-holding. I was a bit disappointed that it was downplayed and I'm not a fan of the 'she's testing Losien' aspect; she's meant to be there for balance not strictly an ally of the heroes - no reason she can't hate one of them with a passion. Mostly I see it as Rachel venting her frustration over Gebohq onto his sister, obviously with some genuine excuses but largely exaggerated by circumstance. But, as much as I like her, is someone had to be removed she'd be second, after Amal, as she does seem to have run out of steam without much of a reason to want to chew Losien's eyes out.

Soriel: Gebohq hit the nail on the head with Soriel. Basically he's striving to become more than just the swordsman. It was actually something Gebohq started back when I first bit Soriel in but never realised after that. Plus the fact that Losien now has Soriel's gear gives Losien an additional, fairly solid and unbreakable, connection outside of her 'family unit'. In all honesty I was battling the desire to have Soriel use the Fairy Godmother to kill Thand off, which would probably have been the only way to kill him off. Naturally there'd very likely be a later story line to bring the old geezer back or something and it would have been highly entertaining for me. Buuuut Thand seems to be liked by everyone and is probably integral to someone's future storyline somewhere... But I would still like to do some future sub-plot where Soriel will at least challenge Thand for the role, possibly even take it in some dramatic twist. Who knows?

Apple: Basically she's on a bit of a sub-plot trip but really the interesting factor is the possible connection she would form with one of two characters; either Losien or Highemperor (Al Ciao by proxy). One of the two will be the 'father' of Apple's child. If Apple is exposed to more heroism and goodness then Losien will be the father (hur hur hur). If she's exposed to arrogance and control, or more darker aspects, then the child will be Highemperor's. The result on this is entire open for writers to play on and lean towards their favourite result.

Thinking on this TLTE would probably be an interesting factor on Apple's baby as I'd say he'd be the most likely to lean Apple in Highemperor's direction, being much darker even than Al Ciao (who's Highemp by proxy).

OTHER STUFF

Nyneve is probably going to pop back again at some point and we can do the whole Lestat and Louis thing with Antestarr. But essentially it could get very interesting when Losien returns from Memory Lane, possibly Antestarr is going have to try very hard to control himself and not chew her neck off.

To be honest I wasn't thrilled with Subaru's return just yet. I feel it could have waited until later. I actually planned it myself because I'd like to explore the character a bit more myself, but I think it was too soon for her to re-enter. Too late now but I think there should be some drama between her and Antestarr; I do like the constant references she's making to 'Ante's ex' for example.

Emperor Pi is basically a bit of character development for Rachel, but also adds to the world of the NeS (now we have a floating Forbidden City over China!!). Really it also worked well with the Young birthing scenario and his concubines. Of course there's the opportunity to do something after Memory Lane there too, will Emperor Pi succeed in stealing Rachel away? Would anyone even try to stop it? What about... Gebohq?

Not sure why I'm being apologised to for Hawthorne? I felt his arc came to a good end and did tie-up loose ends regarding the connections between Al Ciao-Highemp-Citizen Rex; though I'd like to now know the decision Hero Force One makes on the situation. I never intended for him to become a permanent cast member, just someone to run around and do a little sub-quest. Really I'd intended for him to explore character memories through interviews, like in the Citizen Kane movie, which would tie into the main plot and cover more ground but that never happened. Shame. But, again, there are characters that come and go. Just like The Illusionist I imagine Hawthorne, now Detective Hawthorne, will return one day to do some more random investigating whenever the role seems appropriate.

I love Hero Force, I openly confess it. I hated Acidspitter and his love affair with Seraphim, not in the least because it made her a little less interesting and I do like her. However it's suddenly became really GOOD! I like that they're not together but still in love and he's still running after her. But I hope they don't get back together. Unrequited suits them.

Sometimes I do feel bad because I know I make a lot of posts that revolve around HFO which can detract from the main story. I did once consider even just making an entirely separate thread for HFO material so I didn't 'clog up' the main NeS, but I know the NeS needs its posts.

A war between Heaven and Hell might just be a great thing for the heroes to return to when they finish up on Memory Lane.

But it could also be where our sub-plot characters go off to if things have settled in the HHH.

One thing I'd like to know about, which I think has been forgotten even by her illustrious Writer; Iriana Emp.

Mass replying time!


I actually think he's developed his own personality (at least as much as a lot of NeS characters have) - it's specifically a goal (short and long term) that he needs. I know it's been both hinted and 'planned' that Amal eventually take on TLTE's evil qualities in becoming the "wellspring of evil" although I think it'd be a bit too quick to start pulling that now. He could always try being a Protector of the Plotfractal for at least a bit, which would allow him to exercise more antihero qualities while still remaining "good" - and unlike other Protectors, he can (at least initially) be a relatively straight good guy who takes the role "for the sake of the story", doing the bare minimum of "villainy" and not liking having to do it. If this was done, it'd be an easy out for both him and Rachel to play up the villain side (something Britt touches on later).



Good point. I think having him still in the dress and acting more the 'damsel' (to oversimplify) will help address a point Britt brought up.



True. I mostly thought this because he's recently been playing mostly comic relief and not "hey, hunting down the Forgotten soul of NeS/screwing the heroes over" - admittedly partly my fault as well. My whole previous post was simply off the top of my head no-review assessment of what I knew of the characters - I intend to re-skim this current story-arc first thing before any more posting.



I'd like Britt's vote (or at least one other writer) before I seriously go through with this. Regardless, advancing that in some significant fashion will be my primary goal so the rest of you can focus on other stuff.



It's perfectly fine that he failed - I was mostly curious what to do with him next. It sounds like Britt might have an idea.



Not a bad idea. Tsolo was created primarily as a literary device (to weed out the extraneous characters just cluttering things up and collecting dust), not strictly a "character" - confrontations with Tsolo were meant to be the equivalent of most other stories' confrontation with Death: cold, impersonal, something that couldn't be confronted in the character sense. His initial uses were doing alright, and then, as pointed out, there wasn't much care about Tsolo. It's a large reason why I thought to combine him with Darkside - give this combined character more a history, give the literary device more options, be more like Death. Recent events have really made it difficult to legitimize Tsolo's credibility, so I could see Michael eventually taking his "office" naturally. This is NOT something I would want to see slapped into action though just to get it out of the way - not that anything really should be.



Right, I recall who the character IS and I was just trying to check what should be done with the character. From what Britt says, it sounds like we can just let it be until later, though I find it odd that he/she just drops out of the picture after working with Michael... I'll talk more about this later.



Just to be clear, I don't mean to suggest we bump every character out of the picture who's not doing something written constantly or otherwise not being "interesting" - I'm merely making sure the characters are a) acting in their character when they should be and b) have some 'purpose' however small or fleeting or whatnot, which is something obviously debatable. It sounds like Rachel may make good to flip to working some villainy at this point, though she doesn't necessarily have to figure out the whole Darkside thing and boot him out. I'll talk more about this in response to Britt's part.


Again, we don't need to boot them off (as I'm actually concerned we may trigger too many rotating characters otherwise). I just want to make sure they're not spouting the same 2 cent jokes and not getting their own character moments.



"Culminate" may be misleading. I used that word because there's been a multi-storyarc event going on with Antestarr trying to ursurp control from the writers via Young, breaking down in the process, and watching as his plans backfire. I had intended Young by the end of this story-arc to 'close' that meta-event, where she clamps down control over the characters herself to protect them from the writers and themselves and have Ante make some sort of sacrifice to stop Young from doing that one way or another. As it is, Young doesn't really seem to naturally fall into that action at this point, and regardless, she just gave birth (she left the main group for that very reason) so she's not likely going to be up for doing much of anything other than nursing her child. The change of events is fine - I just want to make sure that the meta-event that was given so much effort before is addressed somehow.



Ha! I didn't mean to suggest she become a NeSferatu - only that Ante feed on her and that she might even die. I just threw it out there, though, and isn't something I necessarily recommend. Like Britt, I think she entered a bit pre-mature, and now that she's there, it should be fine to work some conflict between her, Ante, Nyneve, etc.

Now to Britt's reply!



I touched on this earlier and I feel I should elaborate. It's true that I'm probably a bit quicker to classify a character as "F/forgotten" when they haven't been mentioned in a while. First, some clarification:

Forgotten: When capitalized, I'm generally referencing 'in-story' characters labeled by other characters as such. They might be considered such after only a couple posts of minimal activity or even if they've been recently active for some time. The classification is a bit arbitrary, and I presume the guideline is when it would suite the story for a character to have to struggle with the equivalent of "character death" - their stories are not told, they cease to act lively, they are not considered a major character, and other potential options. A Forgotten character is not necessarily forgotten - ex. Soriel.

forgotten: When not capitalized, I generally mean from a personal, writer's standpoint. I've lost track of what their character motivation was (if they had any), where they were, what defined them, and so on. A forgotten character is not necessarily Forgotten - ex. Apple (for me).

1) My evaluations on the matter are generally pulling from my experience with NeS over the years and how these things generally flow. When I say a character has been "forgotten" in this case, I am not only noting what I've personally lost track of, I am also noting things I think have a tendency to become forgotten by other writers. I am very well aware that you, Britt, are better at keeping track of things than most I've worked with, and even better than myself and Al with certain details. Other writers have to be considered too, however (at this point, primarily Al and myself admittedly) and one of the primary goals of NeS as writers should be to support each other.

2) I didn't mean to suggest that secondary characters and villains were forgotten simply because they hadn't done anything in a while. Actually, the only one I felt was in any real danger of that was Tsolo, which you seem to agree...



My concern with Michael and Darkside isn't that they're forgotten (far from it) - it's that their motivations aren't clear. It's not a serious concern, just something I felt should be brought up. As for "forgetting" Tsolo, I suppose it's more accurate to say he's being ignored. I've already talked about Tsolo's purpose in the past and how I've tried to address his shortcomings. Whatever happens to Tsolo, I only emphasis that, with everything, actions should not be slapped on. There's an improv guideline that says one should fight the tendency to downplay what your partner has given you. If your partner says "Help, my leg is bleeding!" the tendency might be to say "You'll be fine" for comedic or 'interesting character' effect, and improv encourages to go the mundane route of "Yes, quite badly, let me fix that up - I'm afraid I only have gauze handy right now." In comparison, that can be taken not only at the writer-to-writer level, it can also be taken to a character level. A character that comes off an intimidating threat should be treated as such, for example, even if the natural writing inclination is to say "he's boring" or "he'll mess up the story" or what-have-you. The idea is to support wherever possible -- something I still need to work a lot on with NeS.



An assumption I think both Al and I made, and I think we're good with not worrying about the Illusionist for now. I would be cautious of using the Illusionist as the cop-out for "ha ha, it's not him but the Illusionist!" as that, in addition to already causing confusion in the beginning of the story-arc with what characters were where, it leaves it very easy for the "it was all a dream" syndrome that writers and readers alike tend to dislike. You know, this sort of stuff (which also brings up other concerns, and that's not something I feel needs to be brought up at this moment). And yes, reoccurring characters and the like are great.



Whoopsie-doodles, I missed that effort! A good idea, and regardless of if we're fine with me trying to do a lot of memories at once or not, is the sort of thing I'm down for trying as well.



I recall, and I think we got a good bit of development for Amal. I think we just need to pin at least a personal short-term goal on him (long-term can develop on their own from places we didn't expect) and/or some special character traits - one may be enough depending on what it is. I think those things are within reach, and I'm not worried about him being lost at this point.



I'm not as worried that she'll be hard to keep interesting, and that's partly because I know you disagree on what makes an interesting character, at least in this context. Regardless, I'm not concerned about her being overshadowed by TLTE at this point for a couple reasons. A quick dusting off of everything that's fallen on her and I think we'll find a rather solid main character. And I hope to still give her a few more personal memories, at least one hopefully as character-defining as Gebohq versus his Potential... ok, that's a tall order, and that's my goal!



TLTE is a strong character that can leave others in his shadow, and I'm not too concerned about him overpowering Losien and Amal for at least two reasons: 1) he was just recently forcibly Forgotten, and he didn't come back on his own power, which is likely going to leave him much more dependent on his 'family' and 2) he's still been playing something of a "damsel" role (he might even still be wearing at least some of that dress o_o...I have to go back and look that one over). I think it'd be quite natural for the TLTE character to "depend" on Losien and Amal from the time being. I also feel they need some "we're a loving family" time which I firmly believe doesn't have to be boring. I don't wish to turn them into the standard seriously-dysfunctional family ala "Long Day's Journey into Night".



I agree, and I do still think it's telling that Al's "dark side" is to be perverted, as I think it shows that his "dark side" (Highemperor) ultimately wants to be given attention and propagate himself. I may also be looking into that too much.



I'm going to lump these together. As stated before, I don't think any character should be pruned for pruning's sake, only if it makes sense character-wise. If you feel the Otter as a character would wander off to do stuff with Maybechild (I don't know why you keep tacking the 'e' on her name), then by all means, do so! Just don't force it because that's what you want to happen. As for Maeve, I feel she's become too much of a joke at the moment to really be interesting as a character, although that may be personal taste. As for Rachel, I think we've already talked about the potential for her and Amal to maybe do villainy stuff -- it's something to consider at least. You also made an unrelated note I'll REALLY be harping on later...



I don't have anything to add about Soriel in particular, although I DO have something serious to say about your comments about Thand. First off -- I'm glad I removed him from the current cast, as I (and I imagine writers like Al and TLTE) would be VERY upset if you went and killed off Thand, especially as you hinted at! Thand has been set up for a good chunk of NeSquared as an antagonistic force in parallel to the EeP. Thand is the First Man of NeS mythos. He is the wisest and most knowledgeable man -- a trait fairly special in the NeS in general and particularly for an antagonist. To boot, he's been clearly established as a character that the 'heroes' know is FAR out of their league (like the EeP) and, more importantly, also know to be acting more in the "ethical right" than themselves. I've noticed that, when you've recently been writing him, you keep having Thand act as a Mr. Know-it-All, just an "old geezer" with little credibility, and while I can ultimately see a very gripping scene where Soriel challenges Thand (as other gripping scenes have been written with other characters and Thand), to suggest Thand be bumped off is a HUGE slap in the efforts of all the writers who have written for Thand up to this point. Yes, Thand is a very difficult character to write for, and that does not mean he should be dumbed down or otherwise treated without care. This goes for everyone, myself included: please do your best not to discredit what's been established, not for concern of the plot (because that can go to hell), but for each other.

OK, it's getting far too late for me at this point, and the rest of Britt's post I pretty much agree with or have nothing to add anyway.

I may make another workshop post soon with more improv guidelines and how they apply to NeS (because I feel like it primarily), and I don't want that to get in the way of me making actual posts. I probably won't be able to do a spree until a couple weeks or so from now unfortunately, and I'll try my best to work otherwise.

I would say Amal has more of a personality now yes, but still not one that's all that interesting. He's been fairly socially awkward and definitely has 'teenager' stamped on his forehead. He's fairly naïve I would say, especially with sex and is quick to trust those he probably shouldn't, ie Maeve and Otter. But he's still got a lot more to go.

The motivations for the villains was essentially resolved with "We're the bad guys". But really Michael's still got a chip on his shoulder over TLTE and, if you recall, he decided TLTE wasn't strictly to blame; rather Losien is. In which case Losien is actually both the target of his affection and his hatred. So continuing the scheme of KnowSoul for himself, he's getting his vengeance personally whilst also being in a position to mess with her. DarkSide is evil. He gets to do evil stuff. Tsolo never had much of a personality to really have motivation. However I would say he might like to visit the core of the NeS so that he could trim the fat of the NeS directly at it's source. Why cut out the forgotten and unused here and there when he could get to the heart of it?

The Illusionist comment was, of course, more of a joke than anything meant to be taken seriously.

... I have no idea why I add an e either. I guess I always thought it was there! Probably because it's her name and usually the surname is 'Childe' with the e, as the word used to have an e on it in ye olde days. The Childe of Hale is close to where I live.

I wouldn't say Otter should suddenly up and leave the group to do his own thing. Rather it'd be a sub-plot that unfolds within the main group. I don't know, but I do think it's something I'd like to look at with him.

Thand isn't strictly difficult to write for. In fact it's easy when he's more of an antagonist. When he's being the mysterious figure it's fine and quite easy. But when he's with the main cast it doesn't work. Basically he's either a lime-light hogger or you forget he's there simply because he holds so much personal potential that he could effectively do anything if a writer wanted him to do it. I make him the 'know-it-all' because that's all he can really do without undermining everyone else in the group or drawing too much attention to 'how awesome' he is.

Thand is basically a power-player by a different guise. He can essentially do anything and everything but what makes him more tolerable than Highemperor was that he does it by very focused and directed means (his infinite NeS knowledge) which makes him very cool but, as I say, within a group not so much. I tried to allude to his spider-web plots with his taking the holy hand remote and copying it during an inserted flashback. Along with the fact that he was removed from that scene by Michael's forget powers; which actually suggests to me possibly Thand's engineering even Michael's actions to cover his own tracks! See, now there's a spider-web plot and a lot more than just making him a 'know-it-all'. In this killing Thand off is likely to be just another part of his plans, in all honesty I do know the character very well and understand him probably better than most after reading the whole NeS.

But there's a few reasons for bumping him off. One is it'd be interesting and exciting. A character so uber and impressive suddenly taken out and we would probably be left wondering 'is this part of his plan, what the hell is his plan?'. He also needs something that could seem like a credible challenge. He needs to be seen like he has a weakness (even if it turns out to be a deliberate display to fool us all). Right now I've been happy enough with Thand being in the story but I also think ahead narrative-wise and I do believe that he's going to become bland and uninteresting if he isn't challenged or replaced or brought down a peg. It's one of the reasons I'm building Soriel up slowly so that some kind of challenge could come about and it would make Thand refreshing when he eventually does become a worn out character.

I didn't kill Thand off because I know he's your 'darling' (although one thing they say on my writing degree is 'kill your darlings'; ie you have to remove something if it's not working, even if you love it). Honestly I did realise you weren't thrilled that I removed KnowSoul when I did only after I did it and I felt quite bad for it. If I'd known you were attached I wouldn't have done so. But really I think you might want to readjust just a little bit. I reeeeeally took to heart the 'do whatever whenever', probably inspired by the fact that I arrived during the 'let's destroy the NeS era'. I am fully aware of the fact that another writer might, at any point, kill Soriel off by having Otter fart so loud that it his ear drums explode and his brain melts (... I am now sorely tempted...). I think the best approach is to allow yourself to be detached and accept that at any time a character might be removed for whatever random reason. Besides, they can always be brought back if you wanted to so I don't think it would have been something to be upset over in the first place. It's just a consideration though, as I say I really want to because it would have been fun but didn't because I knew you'd be pissed. Instead I'm going to kill Al Ciao... uh, I mean... :awesome:.

Postage having nothing whatsoever to do with dice or dens follows...



Oh, I didn't mean to suggest any of them were forgotten, I'm just saying they're cluttering up the character tableau. As Geb said however, he doesn't feel the need to actually cut back on anything, so it's all good. I was just under the impression, in my earlier post, that he was looking to unclutter some characters.

Tsolo has the potential to be interesting, but it's just...completely unrealized. He does look visually impressive, and he's a great plot device, but Michael is just so much better, characterwise. The main argument for Tsolo is that he's *supposed* to be more of a force than a character.



...oh. I didn't realize. Huh, oh well.





Oh. On both counts. As I often declaim to Geb, critical thinking is not my strong point. By all means, give the villains-watching-memories another shot. Especially Michael. "Should I twice-forget this one or not...?" As for Hawthorne, we could have memories of him doing interviews and therefore accessing memories Citizen-Kane-style.



As Geb later goes on to say, we can continue to make TLTE the "damsel", frilly pink dress and all. He can try to act all bad-ass, whipping out his guns and sabre, and Losien has to reprimand him like a petulant child, "I'm taking that weapon away from you, you're a damsel now," with him pouting.

I have to agree that Amal is a little uninteresting. To me, he's basically a character TLTE shoehorned into the plot for purposes of grand plannage. Something I have been guilty of many, many, many times in the past, so I'm not really one to talk. This is actually quite odd, cuz if there's anything TLTE's good at, it's strong and epic characterization. Of course, he hasn't really been around to do so.

Focusing on the awkward teenager aspects could be good, and perhaps we can play him up as Losien's "sidekick" for now. Perhaps he tries to hit on Maeve and/or Rachel now.



That's cool, I was just suggesting that in terms of the uncluttering-the-heroes-cast idea, which Geb later clarifies is unnecessary. Also, I'm glad you enjoy the daft humo(u)r!



Memories. That is all.



Orly? I was wondering about the whole "I want Arkng Thand to DIE/DYE!" thing.



Actually, at this point in time (which is by no means a guarantee of my future feelings), I wouldn't be super upset. He's much more TLTE's character now than mine (insofar as characters "belong" to anyone), and with my epic-ish side slapped down, I find him much less "necessary" in a grandiose regard. Also, as Britt later goes on to say, death is hardly final in the NeS. I like the idea of spider-webbed plots.

Geb is right though, TLTE and others have made huge efforts to play up Thand; I would think really carefully before doing any kind of death, spiderwebbed or not. Perhaps he FAKES his death?



I actually like this very very much. More than a sub-plot too, perhaps tied in with the Page 50 climax. Thand used to be the world's greatest warrior before he became the world's greatest sage. Oooh, the parallels!

And Soriel, should he assume the role, or a facsimile thereof (i.e. following in Thand's footsteps without necessarily replacing him), he can still have perverted talking items. "SILENCE, BOOK OF KNOWLEDGE!", and etc.



Ooooh, very interesting. Although, if TLTE's a damsel now, how would that affect it? LOL



The first sentence: what is the Lestat and Louise thing? I know it's Anne Rice, but beyond that, erm. The second sentence: very nice twist!





Whoopsies, didn't realize this! Wellllllllll, I suggested earlier that she could storm out...then we have her re-enter later maybe? So Britt can do his thing? Or else Britt can write in his version of her re-entry, but it was Twice-Forgotten?



Wooooo, fist bump!



Boo! I know you and Geb both think this, but I don't see why two people in love has to be boring. You two have no sense of romance. =P I first introduced their love affair as a joke, at the Christmas party two RL years ago (or was it 1?), with Acidspitter eager for her cuz she wouldn't melt from his acidic kisses, and it just snowballed from there.

I personally found it a little funny how this super-powered, super pure angel and the punk teenager with a mohawk and third-tier power are together, lol.

How, exactly, does being love make Seraphim less interesting, may I ask?



Heh, well thank you for the compliment. I am glad you're okay with them still being in love even if they're not together; that part's important to me. Well, insofar as an aspect of an improv story is important. Note well, Seraphim being fallen now may add an interesting dynamic...particularly if, say, Acidspitter renounces his incubal status and takes on an angelic aspect instead. "Gift of the Magi", anyone?

[quote=Sometimes I do feel bad because I know I make a lot of posts that revolve around HFO which can detract from the main story. I did once consider even just making an entirely separate thread for HFO material so I didn't 'clog up' the main NeS, but I know the NeS needs its posts.[/quote]

Don't apologize, cuz I love them too! Of course, I also love the Magium, Mount Olympus, etc, but oh well. As requested, I'm leaving them in the background for now, particularly since working with all of them lends itself to my epic tendencies.

But HFO is all good. ^-^

As for making a separate thread, I've occasionally considered separate threads for things, but Geb prefers it all to be in one thread, and personally, I think he's right. Having to follow two different threads which often overlap can be quite confusing, especially when a reader is trying to figure out the order in which to read the posts of the different threads. It's the same problem with comic book issues.

NeShattered was a special case, and I specifically asked Geb about it at the time; he wasn't keen on it at first, but warmed to the idea.



Very true! =D No more war with Disney, war between heaven and hell instead, lol. It's cool, I think, to have some big conflict as a backdrop to the story. Also, the Heaven/Hell war has that very personal, character-centric aspect of Seraphim and Acidspitter, which adds a nice dimension to it.

And of course, HFO is caught inbetween. While they might be more X-Men than Avengers, they certainly have Avengers/S.H.I.E.L.D. level resources; but an army of angels? Little out of their league.



Illustrious writer? Good sir, I'll have you know that I am her writer.

Joking aside, I haven't forgotten about her, I've just been distracted with contributing to various plots and subplots. My basic idea with her right now is that she's caught up in London, which has become Ground Zero for the heaven/hell battle, or at least is about to become a blasted battlefield.

And it's still recovering from Helebon's reign over it. Oh, BTW, apparently there are still some demons running around there being cleaned up by the Forgotten, so they can muster rather more quickly than Hell's main army. For whatever that's worth.

Also, Iriana is suddenly rich beyond her wildest dreams and is probably trying to figure out what to do with herself and her life. I personally am not very clear on her motivations. She has something of a regal bearing (being the daughter of a princess and a powerplayer), but is still very much a teenager with daddy issues. I find her more interesting than Amal because of her rocky relationship with her father, but of course I'm biased.



I didn't know this was 'planned', actually. I just said it off the top of my head, lol. Also, if he does a touch of villainy/anti-heroism for the sake of the story, it would give him some common ground with Evil Geb, which I think we could build upon.

As you may have noticed, I'm fond of characters with similarly tragic destinies striking up friendships (Highemp/TLTE, High Imp/Seraphim, etc).



Having a cold, impersonal Death is certainly a very good idea. I can see how your amalgamation into Knowsoul addresses that, but personally, it wasn't doing the trick for me. Of course, I wasn't aware of your motivation in that regard, so I was reading it from a different standpoint.

Michael taking the office eventually probably would be a good thing to build up too instead of a sudden spur-of-the-moment.

Having both a character-driven "Death" or an impersonal "Death" are both good ideas, i don't really know which to choose from. Of course, we could conceivably have both, but that would detract from the impact of each one.

I will think on this.



Good points. Duly noted.



Personal short-term goal and/or special character trait. Check. I'll think on that too.



Could you clarify what kind of stuff you mean by "everything that's fallen on her" for me, please? What's coming to mind for me is the sex-in-the-laundromat running joke and seeming fetish she has.

Not to mention cheese and crackers. And Candyland. Hmm...



Wow, good God, I didn't even think of that interpretation. I'm trying to avoid Highemperor-ish stuff. When Darkside poked in his mind, he specifically didn't find Highemperor, who's gone.

Al's dark side is just his (not so) hidden perversion - boning everything in sight and impregnating everyone. The joke is that this is due to the fact that "Al Ciao the Writer" has a (not so) secret pregnant porn fetish.

In addition, the whole impregnation takes the "Al's Daughters" meme and runs with it. I'm still discovering more of Al's motivations and developments without Highemperor.



True that.



Also, Sir Tan Lee Chylde from NeS1888 had the 'e' on the hand, as well as the 'y' replacing the 'i'. That may be confusing you as well. I just made those changes in NeS1888 to represent Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe.



Pfft, he's already dead. Hasn't slowed him down so far.

I wanted to make a longer reply, but in the interest of holding onto the "Eureaka!" moment...

You and Britt I think have nailed something big. I need to skim and see if what I'm thinking would easily fall into place...

@Britt: Dude, you are awesome. Lovin' your latest posts!

Unfortunately, I keep getting distractimacated by other things. (Hint: ooooooooh, shiny...) I'll post eventually. >.>

I know.

As a side note, I honestly didn't even see the correlation between Soriel being a fighter and Thand. That is amazing. *giddy*

Wow there are some long posts in this thread.

Also if you guys feel Otter is sitting around doing nothing why don't you just have him leave to fulfill his lifelong dream of attending a prestigious law school.

After further perusal of this thread I am shocked/disappointed to learn that you all seem to have forgotten the single greatest character in NeS history: Cris B.

Tracer: Not so! He opened up a rotating Chikin Chateau restaurant on top of Big Ben! Just had a scene with multiple characters in it, before it was torn half apart by two angels fighting.

Haha, as Al Ciao pointed out, Cris B has not been forgotten. Or at least his spirit lives on through his enterprise. Hahaha.

Yo, Brittakers! I don't recall TLTE and tentacles. What reference is that, pray tell?

I can answer that!

It started when TLTE died and went to Hell (post here) only to (re-)discover that he is considered by the NeS to be the Ultimate Villain. Interestingly enough, it's a detail I forgot when TLTE was sent with the rest to Hell at the end of the "Search for Opportunity" treasure-hunting story-arc. So I should remember now -- Hell does not own TLTE's soul like it currently does most of the others.

It's then indicated that he's basically keeping his true self from emerging when his hands briefly turn into claws (post here) and presumably deform even more into claws (post here) with even tiny mouths (post here). I believe the last mention of it was with Amal at least easing TLTE of his evil urges (post here), though it may have been meant to say that TLTE was meant to no longer have to worry about turning into a monster anytime soon. Curiously enough, they're never mentioned to be tentacles, though I think that in itself isn't terribly important, since the spirit was meant to show simply that TLTE's 'true self' was asserting. I do recall having a conversation with TLTE saying that he felt he was forcing the "Ultimate Villain" bit in a way that wasn't working, which is probably partly why it dropped.

I still think it's a point worth at least coming to fruition towards the end of NeSquared, and I do think Al's current post to show TLTE having been a 'victim' of his 'true side' (presumably unleashed by Darkside) is accurate for now. I had meant to make a post sooner indicating that TLTE was essentially 'possessed' by Darkside, and he could have freed himself if he asserted his selfish side by stepping over Losien's main hero role and saving himself via controlling his 'true side' himself, and I've been neglecting to do so in a timely manner.

I've also been neglecting to reply to a bunch of workshop stuff in a timely manner, and while there's a lot more I want to post in both the workshop and the thread, here's some immediate responses:

Al and Britt: You guys are both making some funny posts.

My workshop post about Thand: I did some re-skimming of posts with Thand, and my initial thoughts will still need some rethinking before proposing, as they're not quite in line with what I thought the Eureka moment would have led me to believe. Regardless, having Soriel challenge Thand for role as the NeS wise man is still a good idea, even if right now there are previous characters better suited (Ford and Antestarr come to mind).

As for making my slew of memory posts, I won't be able to do it for at least a couple weeks, and I will still try to make some other story posts in the meantime.

Hey guys, please don't kill off Otter. I have consulted with professor Geb and have an idea for him once this memory lane stuff is wrapped up.

The idea is he leaves to fulfill his lifelong dream of attending a prestigious law school.

Shwa? Who's killing Otter?

I was considering dropping him from the current main cast, but by no means killing him.

As for law school, that'd be awesome. He'd be following in Krig's footsteps! LOL

Geb: Ahhhhhh, okey-dokey.

EDIT: Oh, and as for TLTE not saving himself, that was NOT a deep piece of meaningful character insight. That was just me remembering that TLTE is the damsel in the frilly pink dress.

I'd like to point out that Professor Geb told Tracer, as I've told every other writer, that he shouldn't look for my permission to post. I did suggest to him to wait, only because I was concerned it might be jarring, and if a situation were to come up where it'd be natural for the Otter to leave sooner, then my suggestion would be to go for it. Suggestion or not, Tracer, you should do what you think works best in the collaborative and improvisational spirit of NeS (and yes, I realize I say that a lot).

Also, regarding TLTE, I did mention this at somepoint, somewhere, and I figured I'd say again more explicitly. Towards the end of NeSquared, I personally envision a lot of things falling upon TLTE that should normally turn him back to his true evil self (his true nature, the Darkfoil in his possession, tragedies that occurs involving Losien and Amal, etc.). However, I don't think it'd be fitting if TLTE were to become a victim of his "true self" i.e. evil and is partly my personal reason for having not done too much with TLTE having to wrestle with his true self. What I did have in mind is essentially an inversion of the speech from the end of the Matrix movies, where one of the good guys (let's say Al, given the dialogue) says something like the following:



Which, of course, TLTE would respond "Because I choose to." In saying that, he'd cement his role as the Ultimate Villain of NeS not because of some reason of plot or device laid by a writer, but because he exercises his free will to not do the good thing.

It's not something I'd want to leave verbatim like that, though there could be other allusions of speeches too where we could, like from Return of the Jedi for when Losien fights the need to kill TLTE:


In any case, it's a bridge we'll cross when we get to it, since everything could very well go out the window by the time we get there, lol.

Also, since it should be noted, in regards to your latest post, Al, while I am admittedly glad some of the complexity of the current school memories were essentially slated, you should be careful about using the "previous posts weren't real" scenario, as it could be taken to say that material that you and Britt wrote regarding that didn't count. This is specifically also my concern about using the Illusionist for this sort of thing, and to play my own Devil's advocate, this concern has been here as long as we've legitimized the use of plot-holes, so just please keep that in mind.

Geb: You are 100% right.

Here's what happened.

I make my first post. Woo, first steps towards explaining what in the heck is happening with these conflicting memories!

Second post: okay, here I go, getting ready to explain the reasoning behind all this. Through this, Thand reveals the whole Twice-Forgotten plot as well as utilizing that plot point as the reason behind the odd memories.

But as I'm writing, I'm thinking...whoa, wait a second, I'm diverging dangerously into epic territory! Time to backpedal! How can I do this?

Oh yeah!

...so yeah, that's what happened.

But I have an idea to NOT negate Britt's shtuff! I promise I won't make it worse.

Much.

Tracer: LMAO! You never fail to make me giggle madly with unrestrained hilarity. Great post! Absolutely perfect.

...

*facepalm*

To clarify: The ONLY illusion was in my posts. High school is real. The creche is apparently real, I'm hoping Britt has an explanation for that, and Highemp/Soriel on Jellybabia is real.

THEN, in my post, where I expanded on Highemp/Soriel on Jellybabia, THAT was the illusion. Everything that followed in my posts was an illusion cast by Illusionist.

Hey Britt, not sure if you're feeling a little frustrated here but as a long-time (sporadic) contributor to NeS the best advice I can offer is to 1) scale back your own plans, and 2) just roll with it. If you make big long-range plans things are bound to go wrong due to the collaborative nature of the story. Case in point, I just reread page 22 of the original thread and like half the posts are just the writers trying to figure out WTF is going on. As for my second point some of the best writing we've done, both comedy-wise and story-wise, has come from people just taking the ball and running with it, and smoothing over continuity errors in amusing ways (Krig was really good at this).

I know the feeling of getting fed up with the other writers. In fact, I've started rereading NeSquared to get myself caught up and there are a bunch of posts by me on the first few pages complaining about continuity to the other guys. What helped me enjoy things more was to stop making long-range plans and write more in the moment of the story, if that makes sense. If I have a good idea, try to get it out now - don't do some elaborate set up for 10 pages later (not saying you're doing this). Better yet, take the situation someone else has set up and try to help it along somehow (TLTE was really good at this), or even just write a post that doesn't advance the plot but has some jokes and keeps the thread going (this is what I usually try to do).

Just some thoughts. I'm not trying to claim any kind of "seniority" over you, or say that I'm a better writer than you (I've written some horrible, embarrassingly bad posts in my time :))

Since the whole "TLTE tentacles attacking" part didn't really seem to be picking up, and since I felt it was sort of cramping things, I edited my last post and had Amal (& Losien) "heal" TLTE again. I don't wish to suggest his dark nature is gone, only that they've once again eased things, and practically, that the tentacle-thing is resolved for now. Will it pick back up again? Who knows.

Wow, I should be flattered. Apparently it looks like I'm such an amazing writer it looks like I'm planning all this crap!

Trust me, I write whatever comes into my head on a spur of the moment almost always. Sometimes a bit too much as Gebohq points out that I don't always consider the thoughts of the other writers when I randomly slam a train into some character's face (Actually, I like the sound of this). I've been writing for the NeS for over a year, I've even gone and read the whole bloody thing. As for the writers, as of late for a wee while now there's mostly been myself and Al Ciao here with Gebohq throwing some integral posts in there every now and again, so I honestly have no chagrin towards any other writers' actions at all, I'm perfectly comfortable with both of them.

If you were commenting on my *facepalm* that was directed specifically at Al Ciao who just single-handedly confused the buggery out of everyone else.

So... I know what I'm doing. (Of course, by this, I mean I have NO IDEA what I'm doing, which means, within the context of the NeS, I know exactly what I'm meant to be doing... or something like that.:downswords: .[CENTER] ) [/CENTER]

The whole crèche thing... I was in a dark, dark place when I wrote that... . I'll write something weird and let everyone else fix it! No no, I'm sure I can do something with it. It was just a weird random thing I thought would be kind of funny at the time.