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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2017-10-07, 8:29 AM #4361
Originally posted by Reid:
I think a big thing I'm getting at is, the left will criticize and suppress antifa only if the right will actually work to push out the obviously super racist elements on their side. Right now, it feel like many on the right are softening up to overt racism, and Donald Trump is ringleading this in a new way. As far as I can tell, most Republican representatives are sort of tolerating Trump and the far right, and that's really completely unacceptable, and I see no reason why the left should work to suppress our radical elements if the right has a president in office who's encouraging the opposite.


I don't think the reason why the neither the left nor the right is cracking down on their extremists is because the other side isn't doing it. I think both sides refuse to seriously take stock of themselves and acknowledge that they have problems with violent extremism (in most cases because, it doesn't only appear to be a fringe phenomenon. It is one). So for both Republicans and Democrats, it's easy to play the extremism off as if the other side is making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. But I don't think that it's really parallel. On the left, it does seem that college students and campus politics play a disproportionate role in antifa and other violent extremism, which, I think, makes make on the left feel as if it's really unimportant, and that the right is wasting a lot of hot air verbally attacking kids. But it's a little different on the right, because, unlike on the left, extremism has clearly entered into electoral politics on the Republican side. And it's not just because of Trump. Go back to Republican primaries in the 2012 election and you'll see Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum doing more than their fair share of dog whistling. The populist (and xenophobic, racist and antisemitic) segment makes up the largest single voting block of the Republican coalition. So Republicans have to pander to them.

I'm not too quick to say that even those racists to whom the Republican party panders are "extremists". Someone who has retrogressive views about immigration and whatever minority groups is very different from someone who trains in an armed militia and waves a swastika flag. But Republicans have broken with norms of decency that existed for most of the second half of the 20th century (at least), even in the Republican party.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-07, 9:04 AM #4362
Another thing about it: something that's crucial (and flawed) about the left's rhetoric right these days is that it always claims to do things out of a "defensive" posture. It's as if the right has all the agency, and the left merely responds (just look at the names: #Resistance, or, obviously, antifa). It's where much of the left gets its moral power. For that reason, I think many on the left are also unwilling to entertain the idea that violent left groups are bad. For many, the violent leftist groups are reducible to the counter-protesters. They're seen as people who are merely responding to the aggressive violence of the far right, rather than people who are engaged in hateful or destructive acts themselves.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-07, 4:13 PM #4363
Whoops, only just saw this post:

Originally posted by Reid:
I find the response to using words like that to be more of a flaw of the people on the right than the left, who can't realize a term is being used differently, and blow up so emotionally because to them words can never be used differently if they don't like it.

Do I think it's productive to make those terms more inclusive? No, but I also realize that most would make a distinction between hard white supremacy and subtler systemic issues.


I think the left is to blame here. Although what exactly are they responsible for? I'm not so sure. Regardless: "White supremacist" isn't only a descriptive term. It's also a term of moral censure. If someone is a white supremacist, the things they do to earn the title should be maximally condemned, and it is the rare exception of something that is intolerable in a society that is defined by being tolerant and open.

It's true that there's a distinction between "hard white supremacy" and "subtler systemic issues", as you say. But by using the same term for both things, the left is bringing the same moral invective, alarmism and condemnation to a problem that requires a much subtler solution. That's a problem. I think it does have an impact on the right (here the fact that the left's self-understanding as taking on an exclusively defensive posture by standing up for oppressed minorities plays a role, because it makes it impossible for it to see its own antagonism), but I don't want to get into it any more because that'd take us into a conversation about white privilege... and, why go there? and we've probably had it before anyway.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 4:04 AM #4364
Originally posted by Reid:
I truly think this guy is a ****ing moron.


Nailed it.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 9:36 AM #4365
http://www.npr.org/2017/06/16/533255619/fact-check-is-left-wing-violence-rising

No matter how you feel about antifa, right-wing extremism is far more egregious, violent, deadly and pernicious. And it's invading the government. Stay away from the false equivocations because it's Tucker Carlson horse****, and I mean that very seriously.
2017-10-09, 9:42 AM #4366
Originally posted by Eversor:
Nailed it.


I have been mostly ignoring Trump but heard something about our man T-Rex. What's going on?
2017-10-09, 9:44 AM #4367
Earlier Eversor you tried to downplay his extremism because he spoke to Democrats about DACA. Well:

Quote:
Then, setting the stage for another acrimonious week, his White House released principles for legislation protecting undocumented migrants brought to the US as children, outraging Democrats with a hard-line opening bid that included money for a border wall and a call for tough immigration enforcement.


Turns out he was just trying to Trojan horse his stupid-ass wall and more anti-immigration stuff.
2017-10-09, 9:48 AM #4368
America will be in a war before the end of the Trump presidency. Nothing else makes sense as an outcome of this guy's actions.
2017-10-09, 11:04 AM #4369
Originally posted by Reid:
http://www.npr.org/2017/06/16/533255619/fact-check-is-left-wing-violence-rising

No matter how you feel about antifa, right-wing extremism is far more egregious, violent, deadly and pernicious. And it's invading the government. Stay away from the false equivocations because it's Tucker Carlson horse****, and I mean that very seriously.


You didn't read what i wrote but ok.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 11:18 AM #4370
I know, I don't really have a comment on what you said specifically.
2017-10-09, 11:33 AM #4371
Like, I agree that antifa shouldn't be violent, it's bad for PR. But overall the right is not justified in treating the groups as equal. I'm not sure if you have a point but it sounds like you're trying to prove antifa and the far right are similar.

Antifa's probably hated more since they damage private property instead of murdering civilians tbh.
2017-10-09, 11:35 AM #4372
So, going back to President Dumbass, he once said the border wall should be invisible so people don't get killed by giant sacks of drugs. This is a thought from a broken brain.
2017-10-09, 11:40 AM #4373
Quote:

POLITICS
Trump says his wall along the US-Mexico border will have to be see-through so people don't get hit with giant sacks of drugs
Allan Smith Jul 13, 2017, 4:36 PM ET
Donald Trump
Kevin Lamarque/Reuters
Donald Trump.
President Donald Trump told reporters aboard Air Force One on Wednesday night that his proposed wall along the US-Mexico border would need to be see-through so that people on the US side wouldn't get hit by massive sacks of drugs tossed over it.

The comments were part of a lengthy statement Trump gave on the status of the wall, which was a central promise of his campaign. It was the most in-depth Trump had gone into discussing the wall publicly in months.

"One of the things with the wall is you need transparency," Trump said. "You have to be able to see through it. In other words, if you can't see through that wall - so it could be a steel wall with openings, but you have to have openings because you have to see what's on the other side of the wall.

"And I'll give you an example: As horrible as it sounds, when they throw the large sacks of drugs over, and if you have people on the other side of the wall, you don't see them - they hit you on the head with 60 pounds of stuff? It's over," Trump continued. "As crazy as that sounds, you need transparency through that wall. But we have some incredible designs."


My dumbass forensics attempt leads me to believe someone on his project team said "the project needs transparency" and this is what came out of his brain.

Read it aloud. It sounds insane.
2017-10-09, 11:49 AM #4374
Originally posted by Reid:
Like, I agree that antifa shouldn't be violent, it's bad for PR. But overall the right is not justified in treating the groups as equal. I'm not sure if you have a point but it sounds like you're trying to prove antifa and the far right are similar.


My point is that both the left and the right have extremes, and the way that moderates on the left and the right relate to the extremes on their respective side is similar (neither wants to take responsibility or be accountable for their side's extremism, or acknowledge that their side's extremism is a problem). But while there are parallels, there are also asymmetries as well. Here's how I described the asymmetries:

Originally posted by Eversor:
On the left, it does seem that college students and campus politics play a disproportionate role in antifa and other violent extremism, which, I think, makes make on the left feel as if it's really unimportant, and that the right is wasting a lot of hot air verbally attacking kids. But it's a little different on the right, because, unlike on the left, extremism has clearly entered into electoral politics on the Republican side. And it's not just because of Trump. Go back to Republican primaries in the 2012 election and you'll see Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum doing more than their fair share of dog whistling. The populist (and xenophobic, racist and antisemitic) segment makes up the largest single voting block of the Republican coalition. So Republicans have to pander to them.

I'm not too quick to say that even those racists to whom the Republican party panders are "extremists". Someone who has retrogressive views about immigration and whatever minority groups is very different from someone who trains in an armed militia and waves a swastika flag. But Republicans have broken with norms of decency that existed for most of the second half of the 20th century (at least), even in the Republican party.


So, in short: the big difference between extremism on the left and on the right is that the right's extremism has entered into electoral politics in a way that it hasn't on the left (although we should be careful what we mean when we're talking about "extremism" when we say that).

Originally posted by Reid:
Antifa's probably hated more since they damage private property instead of murdering civilians tbh.


Lol, well that's awfully cynical.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 12:05 PM #4375
It strikes me that your view here is pretty similar to Sam Harris' in the Chomsky-Harris debate. You think the intentions of right-wingers makes their violence morally worse than left-wing extremists. And furthermore that the intentions of the left-wingers justifies their violence morally (and that the only reason why violence is bad in their case is because it's "bad PR").
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 12:07 PM #4376
Don't forget that Rand Paul supporter who thought that stepping on a solitary, peaceful female protestor was the best way to ensure the rally went as smoothly as possible.



Sure, I don't think he really hurt her, but notice how he had to be told to stop... and at any rate, he seemed to be living out some kind of American History X fantasy of vigilante violence.

Maybe right wing violence comes from the gut, whereas left wing violence is premeditated in order to sow discord? (See Jon`C's case analysis.)
2017-10-09, 12:09 PM #4377
Saying "both sides have extremes" is the equivocation. Yes, both sides have extremes like bounded functions have supremums. It's obviously true. The problem is, phrasing it like that makes the sides seem closer than they are. I mostly agree with you here I'm just really not a fan of that phrasing.
2017-10-09, 12:10 PM #4378
I'm saying the violence of right wingers is worse because it literally is.
2017-10-09, 12:13 PM #4379
As in, there is worse and more severe violence coming from the right than from the left.
2017-10-09, 12:13 PM #4380
Originally posted by Reid:
I'm saying the violence of right wingers is worse because it literally is.


Go on?
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 12:14 PM #4381
Originally posted by Reid:
Saying "both sides have extremes" is the equivocation.


But they do. Who shot Scalise?
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 12:22 PM #4382
Originally posted by Reid:
As in, there is worse and more severe violence coming from the right than from the left.


You're not coming through. You just tried to elaborate on what "literally worse" means by saying it's "worse" and then using a synonym for worse.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 12:23 PM #4383
You're correct, there was a murder committed by someone on the left. Now go tally up right-wing murders.
2017-10-09, 12:28 PM #4384
Originally posted by Reid:
You're correct, there was a murder committed by someone on the left. Now go tally up right-wing murders.


TIL that this isn't deplorable because it's more than offset (numerically by the number murdered) by this.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 12:29 PM #4385
"It's bad, but not as bad."
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 12:43 PM #4386
You can participate in good faith or not, up to you.
2017-10-09, 12:47 PM #4387
Originally posted by Reid:
You can participate in good faith or not, up to you.


I am arguing in good faith, but I'm being sarcastic in order to make a point. I think that tallying up the number of victims of left-wing violence and the number of victims of right-wing violence, and concluding that that right-wing violence is "worse" because there are more victims of right-wing violence, and therefore that the left isn't accountable for its extremists in the same way the right is, is an incredibly shallow and flippant argument.

You're the one's weaseling out of the moral implications of your own position.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 12:49 PM #4388
You can provide another explanation of what you mean by "worse" if you're so repelled by the implications of the one you already gave.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 1:02 PM #4389
You really do only ever bring up morals when it suits your end, and even then you abuse the discourse.
2017-10-09, 1:03 PM #4390
Mhmm. Another ad hominem instead of continuing the discussion. Go figure.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 1:04 PM #4391
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Don't forget that Rand Paul supporter who thought that stepping on a solitary, peaceful female protestor was the best way to ensure the rally went as smoothly as possible.

Sure, I don't think he really hurt her, but notice how he had to be told to stop... and at any rate, he seemed to be living out some kind of American History X fantasy of vigilante violence.

Maybe right wing violence comes from the gut, whereas left wing violence is premeditated in order to sow discord? (See Jon`C's case analysis.)


Ignoring **** like the war on drugs, prisons and prison sentencing, and who's most likely to be policed and prejudiced against, even then right-wing terrorism and attacks are greater in number than left-wing.
2017-10-09, 1:05 PM #4392
Originally posted by Eversor:
Mhmm. Another ad hominem instead of continuing the discussion. Go figure.


That's an ispo propter hoc ergo discuum fallacy! Fallacy fallacy! *fixes nerdy lenses*
2017-10-09, 1:07 PM #4393
Hahah and now you're trying to troll me.

Do you want to resume this discussion or not?
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 1:14 PM #4394
Trolling is different than making fun of you. I wrote that post for the sake of others reading the argument.

Discussions with you seem to amount to a bunch of pedantic nitpicking. You're free to pick apart anyone's claims, but you don't advance possible solutions to the ****ed-up political situation in America. It makes discussions irritating and unfun. I honestly don't know where you even land on the political spectrum, I think you're probably a moderate center-left liberal sort of person but it's hard to know. In any case I think it's pretty funny that you went on a nutty rant because I said bad things about Clinton, out of virtually all of your political opinions that one seems to be the one you got most passionate about.
2017-10-09, 1:20 PM #4395
Originally posted by Reid:
You really do only ever bring up morals when it suits your end, and even then you abuse the discourse.


Now, I know you've studied and thought about morality quite a bit, but isn't this kind of a high standard to hold people to? After all, reason is the slave of the passions, right? And is there a more passionate subject than morality?
2017-10-09, 1:22 PM #4396
Originally posted by Reid:
I honestly don't know where you even land on the political spectrum, I think you're probably a moderate center-left liberal sort of person but it's hard to know. In any case I think it's pretty funny that you went on a nutty rant because I said bad things about Clinton, out of virtually all of your political opinions that one seems to be the one you got most passionate about.


I don't remember that "rant" as you called it, but it probably was actually more reasonable than you're making it out to be. But I voted for Clinton but I'm not a huge Clinton nut. Democrats didn't get the primaries we deserved, and our establishment inopportunely went with an establishment candidate in the midst of an anti-establishment moment. Clinton's shortcomings as a candidate should have reminded us of John Kerry's failed presidential bid (they had, I think, a lot in common temperamentally), her repeated gaffes should've reminded us of Romney's failed bid in 2012, and the excitement when there were rumors that other Democrats might enter the primaries (e.g., Biden) also should've been an indicator. The only reason why it seemed obvious that she would be president was because the Republicans were in shambles with Trump leading the primaries, and everyone thought it was impossible that Trump could win either the primaries or the presidency.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 1:25 PM #4397
Originally posted by Reid:
Discussions with you seem to amount to a bunch of pedantic nitpicking. You're free to pick apart anyone's claims, but you don't advance possible solutions to the ****ed-up political situation in America.


Not sure why "advancing solutions" is necessary for an equitable give-and-take. You know, I'm making arguments too. You can criticize them, if you'd like, instead of, you know, "making fun of [me]", as you put it.
former entrepreneur
2017-10-09, 1:39 PM #4398
I'm not always that interested in making arguments. Sometimes it's nice to just talk and not constantly contradict/be contradicted.
2017-10-09, 1:52 PM #4399
Originally posted by Reid:
I'm not always that interested in making arguments. Sometimes it's nice to just talk and not constantly contradict/be contradicted.


Pretty much the dream of every philosopher ever, good or bad, but alas...
2017-10-09, 1:57 PM #4400
Originally posted by Reid:
I'm not always that interested in making arguments. Sometimes it's nice to just talk and not constantly contradict/be contradicted.


So you want to vent to people who agree with you?
former entrepreneur
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