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Inauguration Day, Inauguration Hooooooraaay!
2017-12-05, 4:54 PM #6321
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The Right of Return asserts, as a policy of the State of Israel, that all Jewish people, on the proven bases of religion and ethnicity, are qualified for immigration and citizenship; to faithfully live in Israel, contribute to Israeli culture, vote in Israeli elections, participate in Israeli politics, and enrol in the Israeli military. That means, per Israel, there is something in special Jewish blood that makes them automatically trustworthy and loyal to Israel.


Jews can be loyal members of Israeli society if they choose. But it's not true that all Jews are presumed to be loyal to the Jewish state, even when it comes to the Law of Return. Aliyah applicants can be rejected if a Jew has committed crimes against the Jewish people. So no: the Law of Return is not proof that it is the official policy of the State of Israel that all Jews are loyal to the state of Israel.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 4:59 PM #6322
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Are you seriously comparing Israel’s extraordinary diaspora return rights to a very jus soli Canadian airport babies exception?


I don't know what you're talking about with airport babies, but I received Canadian citizenship by birth because my father possesses Canadian citizen, even though I was not born in Canada. That's not jus soli. That's jus sanguinis.

If you're curious, I happen to be only modestly loyal to the Canadian ethnostate, whose status as an ethnostate is apparently granted by the fact that people like me are Canadian citizens, and all that implies about loyalty. (lol?)
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:00 PM #6323
Originally posted by Eversor:
Jews can be loyal members of Israeli society if they choose. But it's not true that all Jews are presumed to be loyal to the Jewish state, even when it comes to the Law of Return. Aliyah applicants can be rejected if a Jew has committed crimes against the Jewish people. So no: the Law of Return is not proof that it is the official policy of the State of Israel that all Jews are loyal to the state of Israel.


Well in any other country, immigrant applicants can be turned away if they’ve committed a crime against any people. So I’m really not convinced by this post.
2017-12-05, 5:02 PM #6324
None of which is to say there aren't good reasons to criticize Israeli chauvinism, or even the Law of Return and all of the ways that it is unfair and wrong. But I think this idea that the Law of Return implies that the State of Israel assumes that all Jews are loyal to Israel is kind of... uh, off base. I think you're going to need another way to make that trite "if opposing Israel is antisemitism, then it's good to be an antisemite!" argument.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:03 PM #6325
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Well in any other country, immigrant applicants can be turned away if they’ve committed a crime against any people. So I’m really not convinced by this post.


It happens in Israel, too. But that's irrelevant to your argument about loyalty.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:06 PM #6326
Originally posted by Eversor:
I don't know what you're talking about with airport babies, but I received Canadian citizenship by birth because my father possesses Canadian citizen, even though I was not born in Canada. That's not jus soli. That's jus sanguinis.
Your kids won’t.

Quote:
If you're curious, I happen to be only modestly loyal to the Canadian ethnostate, whose status as an ethnostate is apparently granted by the fact that people like me are Canadian citizens, and all that implies about loyalty. (lol?)
Thanks, but the only thing we have in common with Israel is apartheid.
2017-12-05, 5:08 PM #6327
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Your kids won’t.


So? It has nothing to do with your arguments about loyalty.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:10 PM #6328
Originally posted by Eversor:
None of which is to say there aren't good reasons to criticize Israeli chauvinism, or even the Law of Return and all of the ways that it is unfair and wrong. But I think this idea that the Law of Return implies that the State of Israel assumes that all Jews are loyal to Israel is kind of... uh, off base. I think you're going to need another way to make that trite "if opposing Israel is antisemitism, then it's good to be an antisemite!" argument.
The Right of a Return means Israel implicitly trusts (non-criminal) Jewish people to become citizens. I don’t know how much more plainly I can put it. Israel thinks all Jewish people belong to them, and they don’t have any problem letting everybody know it. This particular instance of antisemitism is their damn fault.

By the way, **** off with accusing people of antisemitism. You’re making the word meaningless and it’s not ever going to win any argument. If that’s all you have to contribute (and it seems like every road leads there for you) then please don’t even bother.
2017-12-05, 5:16 PM #6329
Originally posted by Eversor:
It's patently false that Israel "has never come close to "suggesting they return" illegally annexed land. On the one hand, this is false because Israel hasn't annexed any part of the West Bank. But it's also false, because, under the Oslo Accords, it has already withdrawn 18% of the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority -- that is, Area A, which is where the Palestinians have full autonomy over their civic administration and security.


I don't even know how you can make this claim seriously:

Originally posted by EU:
There are more than 200 settlements in the occupied territories: 139-209 in the West Bank outside the municipal boundaries of Jerusalem and 16-20 settlements in Gaza. In East Jerusalem there are at least 12 settlements inside the municipal boundary. According to data by the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics published in September 2001 and to data by the Israeli NGO "Peace Now" approximately 215.000 settlers are living in the West Bank and 6.900 in the Gaza Strip. The total population of the settlements inside the municipal boundaries of Jerusalem is approximately 180.000.
B. The EU continues to oppose Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Territories as being illegal under international law and damaging for the Peace Process as they prejudge the outcome of the Final Status Negotiations.


And a UN report accused Israel of annexation.

So, like, unless you're just being pedantic and going by whatever dumb stuff the dumb U.S. media says, you're wrong? To believe they aren't annexing you have to take ****ty US journalism at face value and ignore literally the entire rest of the world's opinion.

Originally posted by Eversor:
In the Camp David Summit, the Palestinians were offered 92% of the West Bank, but Arafat declined. And in 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip. And regarding Jerusalem: if the Palestinians accepted Camp David, they would've received all of the neighbors of Jerusalem where Palestinians live in significant numbers. Don't believe me? Compare this map of the Summit's proposed divisions of Jerusalem to this map of its population breakdown:


It might help to read other perspectives on the Camp David Summit. For instance, the return of "92%" (a gross overestimate) of the West Bank divided the Palestinians into a bunch of separate areas and gave Israelis control over key access points.

Originally posted by Eversor:
That'd be lovely. As it stands now, Jews are forbidden from praying on the Temple Mount for security reasons, even though it's the holiest site in Judaism. I'd love to see some sort of arrangement where that were no longer the case.

Which is to say: the current political arrangement is not the deciding factor that determines who has access to which holy sites. It isn't clear, for example, that if there is a two-state solution, the current arrangement would be dramatically different, although perhaps certain sites that are administered by Jordan would perhaps be administered by Palestine or by Jordan and Palestine together. It's a topic that is discussed in negotiations.


Oh, of course you turn that into a "poor Israel' rhetorical point.

Originally posted by Eversor:
In 1937 the Arabs rejected the Peel Partition plan, In 1947 they rejected the UN partition plan, in 1967, after the Six Day War, at the conference of Khartoum they made their famous Three-No's declaration ("no peace with Israel, no recognition of it, and no negotiations with it"), in 2000 Arafat refused Ehud Barak's offers, and in 2008 Abbas refused Ehud Olmert's offers. But I guess you're right that the general story here is Israeli belligerence.


If you think Ehud Barak's offer was fair and reasonable, then you're just willfully engulfing a very biased take. You have to basically only read radically pro-Israeli news sources to believe that.
2017-12-05, 5:17 PM #6330
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The Right of a Return means Israel implicitly trusts (non-criminal) Jewish people to become citizens. I don’t know how much more plainly I can put it. Israel thinks all Jewish people belong to them, and they don’t have any problem letting everybody know it. This particular instance of antisemitism is their damn fault.


Potentially, if a Jew decides to become Israeli. It's voluntary, and does not assume that Jews are disposed emotionally or politically to Israel in any particular way. I don't know how much more plainly I can put it. It allows the State of Israel to function as a refuge to those fleeing persecution, as one wishes it could have during the Holocaust, and as it has time and time again since the foundation of the State of Israel.

Originally posted by Jon`C:
By the way, **** off with accusing people of antisemitism. You’re making the word meaningless and it’s not ever going to win any argument. If that’s all you have to contribute (and it seems like every road leads there for you) then please don’t even bother.


Oh, here it comes, the leftist Israel critic who presents himself as the defender of Jews everywhere, who has knowledge of the true meaning antisemitism. lmao
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:18 PM #6331
Originally posted by Eversor:
So? It has nothing to do with your arguments about loyalty.


Yes, it does. It says everything. Canadians who travel or work abroad, and even marry foreigners, who were born and raised in Canada, should rightfully be able to (and are able to) pass their citizenship on to their children. Loyalty works in both directions. They’ve earned the right to bring their foreign-born family back to the country of their birth, and they’ve earned the trust that they can raise their children to be productive members of our society.

You, though. You haven’t earned that. You’re a Canadian citizen because we trust your dad - not you. And your kids won’t be citizens. You have to earn the right to pass your citizenship on to them.

This is the way it works in basically every country. Except Israel, where it works because your kids will be Jewish and your grandkids will be Jewish.
2017-12-05, 5:19 PM #6332
Originally posted by Eversor:
Potentially, if a Jew decides to become Israeli. It's voluntary, and does not assume that Jews are disposed emotionally or politically to Israel in any particular way. I don't know how much more plainly I can put it. It allows the State of Israel to function as a refuge to those fleeing persecution, as one wishes it could have during the Holocaust, and as it has time and time again since the foundation of the State of Israel.



Oh, here it comes, the leftist Israel critic who presents himself as the defender of Jews everywhere, who has knowledge of the true meaning antisemitism. lmao


I’m pretty sure it doesn’t mean “I win every argument because I’m Jewish”, Eversor.
2017-12-05, 5:21 PM #6333
Originally posted by Eversor:
Oh, here it comes, the leftist Israel critic who presents himself as the defender of Jews everywhere, who has knowledge of the true meaning antisemitism. lmao


Oh, here it is, the guy ignoring deep criticisms of Israel's practice by making nebulous accusations and acting like a ****.
2017-12-05, 5:25 PM #6334
Not to mention, Israel can enjoy creating illegal settlements in the West Bank as long as they want as long as they keep resisting a two state settlement. U.S. backing provides some great privileges. Which is probably the best reading of Camp David, where Israel's "generous" demands still gave them far more power over Palestine than the rest of the world thinks they should have.
2017-12-05, 5:30 PM #6335
Originally posted by Reid:
I don't even know how you can make this claim seriously:

And a UN report accused Israel of annexation.

So, like, unless you're just being pedantic and going by whatever dumb stuff the dumb U.S. media says, you're wrong? To believe they aren't annexing you have to take ****ty US journalism at face value and ignore literally the entire rest of the world's opinion.


Yes, there are settlers in the occupied territories. No: those territories have not been annexed. That is how I made that claim, and that's why it's true. However loosely that term being applied in that article, Israel distinguishes the territories that have been occupied (in fact, that's the problem, isn't it? That there is a completely different legal code that functions in the West Bank, which is run like an apartheid state, because Israeli Jews live under a completely set of laws than their Palestinian neighbors who live in the West Bank).

Originally posted by Reid:
Oh, of course you turn that into a "poor Israel' rhetorical point.


Weird. I make it pretty clear that that isn't my point, but okay.

Originally posted by Reid:
If you think Ehud Barak's offer was fair and reasonable, then you're just willfully engulfing a very biased take. You have to basically only read radically pro-Israeli news sources to believe that.


I don't see how Dennis Ross or Bill Clinton's testimonies is are any more intrinsically biased than a website that calls itself "Electronic Intifada", but okay, I guess my perspective is uniquely warped in a way that yours isn't by the media you consume.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:31 PM #6336
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I’m pretty sure it doesn’t mean “I win every argument because I’m Jewish”, Eversor.


Well, as it happens I think I won our argument because I made a better argument, but I'm sure being Jewish doesn't hurt.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:40 PM #6337
Originally posted by Reid:
Oh, here it is, the guy ignoring deep criticisms of Israel's practice by making nebulous accusations and acting like a ****.


Where have I denied that Israel is worthy of criticism? I merely pointed out that the Law of Return, because I happen to be familiar with the contents of that law, does not justify the claim that Israel it is the "official policy" of Israel that all Jews are loyal to Israel. I even suggested that the Law of Return (!!!) is worth criticizing on the basis that it is parochial!! I don't know what more I can do to satisfy your criteria here and convince you that my arguments aren't nebulous.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:41 PM #6338
Originally posted by Eversor:
Yes, there are settlers in the occupied territories. No: those territories have not been annexed. That is how I made that claim, and that's why it's true. However loosely that term being applied in that article, Israel distinguishes the territories that have been occupied (in fact, that's the problem, isn't it? That there is a completely different legal code that functions in the West Bank, which is run like an apartheid state, because Israeli Jews live under a completely set of laws than their Palestinian neighbors who live in the West Bank).

That's a fair take, I suppose.

Originally posted by Eversor:
I don't see how Dennis Ross or Bill Clinton's testimonies is are any more intrinsically biased than a website that calls itself "Electronic Intifada", but okay, I guess my perspective is uniquely warped in a way that yours isn't by the media you consume.


Weird. I make it pretty clear that that isn't my point, but okay.
2017-12-05, 5:44 PM #6339
Neither Dennis Ross or Bill Clinton are exactly neutral on the Israel-Palestine conflict. Very few people writing about it are, to be fair. But still.
2017-12-05, 5:45 PM #6340
Originally posted by Reid:
Neither Dennis Ross or Bill Clinton are exactly neutral on the Israel-Palestine conflict. Very few people writing about it are, to be fair. But still.


heh, I don't think we can drill any deeper than this. Isn't that the rule? Arguments on this topic end as soon as both sides criticize the other's sources?
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:49 PM #6341
Originally posted by Eversor:
Well, as it happens I think I won our argument because I made a better argument


[https://i.imgur.com/hefrlZF.gif]
2017-12-05, 5:53 PM #6342
Originally posted by Reid:
Neither Dennis Ross or Bill Clinton are exactly neutral on the Israel-Palestine conflict. Very few people writing about it are, to be fair. But still.


Anyway, I fundamentally agree with you about sources. Personally, I just don't know enough about the Camp David Summit to be able to adjudicate between the perspectives of the two sides' portrayal of what happened there. I'm sure both sides distort it to serve their own ends to some extent. Hopefully someday I'd be in a position to do that, but not now. To be frank I haven't looked into it very much.

Yet at the same time, while I do read Mondoweiss and Electronic Intifada, I wouldn't say that they make any effort to be impartial. I also get that being impartial isn't part of those publication's raison d'etre. There's an activist and a revisionist component to wha they do. And that's necessary to see perspectives that often don't get much attention, especially in the past when there was a sharper distinction between mainstream media and alternative media. But that doesn't mean that they provide a failsafe correction of legacy media accounts (which, by the way, are no longer nearly as biased in favor of Israel as they were, for example, 15 years ago). They approach the topic with a certain set of assumptions, and it's good to keep them how their assumptions determine their conclusions at the outset. Just as it is with any publication that addresses the conflict.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 5:54 PM #6343
Originally posted by Jon`C:
[https://i.imgur.com/hefrlZF.gif]


gifs don't win arguments, that's for sure.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 6:08 PM #6344
Originally posted by Eversor:
gifs don't win arguments, that's for sure.


No, I’m not engaging with this... whatever the **** you think this is. If you honestly aren’t trolling and don’t understand why I’m cringing at your posts, then, well, ****, I actually feel sorry for you dude.

You can brag all you want about how you beat me with the strongest whatever.
2017-12-05, 6:14 PM #6345
Originally posted by Jon`C:
No, I’m not engaging with this... whatever the **** you think this is. If you honestly aren’t trolling and don’t understand why I’m cringing at your posts, then, well, ****, I actually feel sorry for you dude.

You can brag all you want about how you beat me with the strongest whatever.


hahaha ok moral shaming. Whatever, it's as good a place to end as any.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 6:17 PM #6346
Originally posted by Eversor:
hahaha ok moral shaming. Whatever, it's as good a place to end as any.


....you’ve been constantly accusing your opponents of antisemitism.

What the **** is wrong with you?
2017-12-05, 6:19 PM #6347
Originally posted by Jon`C:
....you’ve been constantly accusing your opponents of antisemitism.

What the **** is wrong with you?


No, I get it. You thought you were going to come in and you were going to really get me by saying that "Israel is the Jewish state but it's antisemitic", and then when that didn't work you went straight to name calling, and even pointed out my Jewish heritage. It's ok.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 6:24 PM #6348
Originally posted by Eversor:
No, I get it. You thought you were going to come in and you were going to really get me by saying that "Israel is the Jewish state but it's antisemitic", and then when that didn't work you went straight to name calling, and even pointed out my Jewish heritage. It's ok.


You bring up your Jewish heritage constantly by constantly accusing everybody of being antisemitic!

What. The. ****. Is. Wrong. With. You?
2017-12-05, 6:28 PM #6349
Originally posted by Jon`C:
You bring up your Jewish heritage constantly by constantly accusing everybody of being antisemitic!

What. The. ****. Is. Wrong. With. You?


I don't... only Reid, because he says weird **** about Auschwitz sometimes. And Jews aren't the only people who can identify antisemitism when they see it.

But I think you're "engaging with" whatever you said you weren't going to get into when I pointed out that gifs don't win arguments.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 6:29 PM #6350
You are an intellectually dishonest pissant, Eversor, who has no original thoughts and covers it up by accusing your opponents of being racist against you. And just to be clear, Eversor, I’m not saying that about all Jewish people. Just you. You are an *******.
2017-12-05, 6:32 PM #6351
Originally posted by Jon`C:
You are an intellectually dishonest pissant, Eversor, who has no original thoughts and covers it up by accusing your opponents of being racist against you. And just to be clear, Eversor, I’m not saying that about all Jewish people. Just you. You are an *******.


haha, now I know I got under your skin. Look how wounded you are!! This is great.

Enjoy this moment, Eversor. Enjoy it.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 6:34 PM #6352
Originally posted by Eversor:
I don't... only Reid, because he says weird **** about Auschwitz sometimes. And Jews aren't the only people who can identify antisemitism when they see it.

But I think you're "engaging with" whatever you said you weren't going to get into when I pointed out that gifs don't win arguments.


Yeah, no. I’m not debating your facile turds. I’m calling you an *******. There’s a difference!

But like I said, feel free to argue how you aren’t an insufferable nitwit. Make sure to tell us all how you’ve won that debate, since, as we all know, if you don’t do that then nobody would ever know.
2017-12-05, 6:36 PM #6353
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Yeah, no. I’m not debating your facile turds. I’m calling you an *******. There’s a difference!

But like I said, feel free to argue how you aren’t an insufferable nitwit. Make sure to tell us all how you’ve won that debate, since, as we all know, if you don’t do that then nobody would ever know.


You already gave me my moment, there's nothing you can do to take that away. Sorry. Sleep time! I'll sleep well.
former entrepreneur
2017-12-05, 6:37 PM #6354
Originally posted by Eversor:
haha, now I know I got under your skin. Look how wounded you are!! This is great.

Enjoy this moment, Eversor. Enjoy it.


Yep, ya got me good. Real steamed under the collar about what a socially stunted and legitimately terrible person you are. Just racking up the life points tonight.
2017-12-05, 6:38 PM #6355
Originally posted by Eversor:
You already gave me my moment, there's nothing you can do to take that away. Sorry. Sleep time! I'll sleep well.
Good night! I hope you have long and pleasant dreams about all of the times people have sincerely cringed after talking to you.
2017-12-05, 11:03 PM #6356
Originally posted by Eversor:
I don't... only Reid, because he says weird **** about Auschwitz sometimes.


You got me.
2017-12-05, 11:08 PM #6357
Originally posted by Reid:
Payment is based on the height of the stack of punchcards used to catalog Jews in Auschwitz


In case you weren't aware, IBM's technology was literally used* for this purpose in WW2. The point was that IBM has a history of being a **** company. The joke was crass though.

*Not just used, but IBM actively serviced and maintained parts to facilitate Nazi holocaust.
2017-12-05, 11:30 PM #6358
Originally posted by Reid:
In case you weren't aware, IBM's technology was literally used* for this purpose in WW2. The point was that IBM has a history of being a **** company. The joke was crass though.

*Not just used, but IBM actively serviced and maintained parts to facilitate Nazi holocaust.


If you only know a little bit about this, well, investigate deeper and I promise it's much worse than you imagined. For many years IBM claimed the equipment was supplied by a German subsidiary that was nationalized by Adolf Hitler. It wasn't; it was provided by IBM corporate, in the USA, with full USA management knowledge of what the machines were to be used for. The equipment, parts, and even consumables like punch cards were provided by IBM in the US; the maintenance was provided by a wholly owned German subsidiary that was never nationalized. The proceeds were laundered through Switzerland. This arrangement allegedly continued throughout the Holocaust, even while the US was at war against Germany.

Corporations are horrifying, and sooner or later one of them will kill you. The joke might have been crass but it's a much needed reminder of what IBM stands for, and that they'd gladly do it all over again. Eternal vigilance.
2017-12-05, 11:33 PM #6359
Oh, IBM also supported the South African apartheid in much the same way. Just in case you thought they'd learned something from profiteering off of the Holocaust.
2017-12-06, 2:31 PM #6360
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/363555-obama-warns-of-complacency-notes-rise-of-hitler
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